I may have asked this before but I'm not sure how to get to a really old post of mine, so I'm asking again.

I have a friend who I considered to be my best friend throughout high school, but who has grown distant from me since then and through college. I'm starting to think that she never considered me as a best friend (thought maybe that's an immature concept), and I'm no longer sure she is capable of having a close female friend. She has expressed her inability to make female friends easily/dislike of women to me before.

College has definitely changed her. It has opened her mind in someways, but I think it has also made her colder, and a bit more superficial with all but a few close people. Once when we were arguing, she described me as being like a jealous boyfriend. I didn't quite know what she meant, except maybe that I was being clingy?

During that time, and actually the whole time I've known her, she has always been terrible about plans, returning phone calls, returning texts. Twice during this time she has purposefully screened my calls for weeks, to the point where I would either just blame myself (depression/self esteem issues) or think that she was so busy she just didn't have time. THat was usually the excuse.

The thing is, I know that she speaks to her mother on the phone nearly every day. I know that she speaks to her boyfriend regularly.

We were close for a long time, and knew everything about one another, or so I thought, but now she's made me feel like a crazy stalker.

It hurt a lot to know she was screening my calls, when she finally admitted it this last time after an entire month. I actually decided for my sanity to not call her for another whole month, so I wouldn't have false hope, but unlike her, I actually told her I was doing this.

I think she is a good person in many ways. I just also think that I have a tendency to attract manipulative people, and she may be one of them. It might be that our relationship has always been so ruled by her whims that she thinks it's natural and nothing wrong. Maybe she has never known the real me, the self assured person I'm trying to be.

Recently we agreed that we're not best friends. She said she had many best friends (actually a line I heard long ago echoed by another manipulative best friend). I get it though. The internet meme, the childhood fantasy isn't real for most people. I just don't know how far to back off.

We were so close that we left things at each others houses, borrowed clothes, and every New Year go on a trip together. I even let her photograph me for art projects, even when I didn't like the way I looked.

Where should I draw the line? What are the boundaries? And how do I get over this long relationship that has been so core to my growing up?

[Rose3]

"Recently we agreed that we're not best friends" - from your post above this is what you've said. For whatever reasons - friendships sometimes fade away - people go on their own ways. If this relationship was core to your growing up - then appreciate the times that you had together. Yet move ahead in your life too.

[hvert]

I think it takes a lot of practice to figure out when someone is a good friend.

I would start trying to keep an eye out for balance. If you are the one who is always calling the other person first, always agreeing to do what they suggest while they never agree to do what you want, always helping them with their projects while they don't seem to help with yours --- those are warning signs. Since you have a tendency (as do I) to form friendships with manipulative people, you need to be especially aware of these things.

As far as getting over your friend, I think it just takes time.

[scorpiosis37]

It just sounds like she has moved on since high school. She's gone off to college and she's grown up-- she's explored new interests, learned new things, and made new friends. As a result, she's drifted away from you and probably other friends and other interests she used to have in high school. It's no one's "fault." It doesn't make her manipulative or a bad person. It's just something that happens when we grow up. Of the friends I had in high school, I'm only still close to one of them and rarely talk to the others. Why? We just don't have much in common anymore so it isn't that fun. They're still nice people, we just don't "click" anymore. I would rather spend time with the friends i have more in common with and have more fun with.

Can you just appreciate your friend for the great times you had in high school-- appreciate that she was once a great and important friend-- and it was a meaningful relationship? And now, can you put your energy into making some new friends, who you might have more in common with now? Just like she grew up, you probably did, too. What are your interests? Hobbies? Career path?

Thank you for the responses.
I just wonder if our friendship was ever what i thought it was. I was always the one seeking her companionship, not vice versa, though I thought she wanted to spend time with me. I guess it's irrelevant now. The one thing I'm having trouble with now is boundaries.
I can respect her need to move away from me, but sometimes it feels like she doesn't respect what that requires. For instance, only last year when I visited her after a long hiatus, and was looking forward to hanging out no strings attached, she pressured me to pose for some artistic photographs, in a way that made me uncomfortable. I did it because she made me doubt my own maturity (come on...it'll be nothing) but I still did not like the way I looked in the photos, and when she put them online for her resume/website, I had to fight her to get them down.
She seems to figure that because we are "friends" she can ask me to do whatever she wants and I'll do it. Another instance, also about a year ago, I had started a job at a busy restaurant, and was trying to make a good impression so I made myself available to work. My friend then texts me out of the blue, after a while of little contact, asking if I would like to go on a double blind date with her, her bf, and a man I had never met.
I was unsure at first, I'm shy & thought a double date might make the blind date even more nerve wracking/awkward. But I then said okay to the date, thinking it'd be good to step out of my comfort zone. This was a bit over a week in advance.
A day or two later, I found out my schedule was filled at the new job, and I couldn't go on the date unless I got someone to cover me. I preferred to work and prove my consistency early in the job. I told my friend as soon as I found out.
Her reaction crossed a line. She was furious. She said I could not refuse once I had accepted, and that she would be embarrassed to tell the guy that I couldn't come. I responded that as I had never met him, I doubt he would be upset, and also that I would personally apologize if she gave me his number. He was fine.
She, on the other hand was not. We had such a huge argument, and a lot of it happened in texts on my break at work (I was working a lot), so there was little room for mistakes. She didn't seem to accept that I wanted to do well at my job, and that it wasn't an insult to her. She had a whole week to change plans!
Honestly, I don't think she believes she was wrong. She finally apologized to me, but I think she still thinks this behavior was ok.
We have a history of her guilt-tripping me into doing things, I just never thought it was dangerous because mostly it was in order to get me to do adventurous things.
Since then we haven't seen much of each other though, and maybe she's grown out of it, or realized I won't accept that kind of behavior...

[lilypup]

I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but I think you are overanalyzing it. I have been known to do this myself. I believe I am objective here, and I don't think your friend really wants to be friends anymore. If the relationship causes you to feel like a stalker, you are with the wrong friend. Drop contact with her and pursue other things. I think you'll be very glad you did, once some time has gone past. If you need additional help getting over her, I would suggest talking with a professional. Good luck to you...I have been in your shoes.

[~Christina]

You and her are just oil and water at this point it seems .. Sad of course.

Th reality of it is you are really never going to know what happened and why.. Thats just a dead end road and no reason to even bother going there. Not worth banging your head against the wall over.

Friendships end for all kinds of reasons. Look to the future and find like minded people that will enjoy your company and it be a mutual healthy friendship.

Best of luck !

I've found that in relationships like this the greatest issue is respect.

Imo you're not overanalyzing - but seems you've never exactly seen the situation for what it really is until now either.

It's difficult when you're left with memories... Agree with the general consensus of moving past this friendship. Can maintain the distance she's put up or walk away from her; if you're finding this way too difficult to do counseling is possibly in order.

[Bill3]

She seems to figure that because we are "friends" she can ask me to do whatever she wants and I'll do it.

Keep telling her no.

In my opinion it was fine to work rather than double date, and it will be fine to decline if she asks you to pose for photographs again.

Go with your gut feeling: if what she wants feels uncomfortable to you, gracefully decline and don't change your mind in response to any pressure.

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by bluedonna92

Once when we were arguing, she described me as being like a jealous boyfriend. I didn't quite know what she meant, except maybe that I was being clingy?

For me, that would be a major RED FLAG. When I began therapy, long ago, I soon noticed that I had NO friends and, definitely no "best" friend(s). I studied up on what a best friend is and realized that I had never known how to be or even get a best friend! I began acquiring the characteristics of a "best" friend or just an ordinary "friend" to offset the terrible character defects that I acquired in my dysfunctional family. I never knew how to be a "friend" and was both bad to people I loved or allowed the to be BAD to me - a spineless doormat. Now, if anyone described me as being like a jealous boyfriend or got into an argument with me, I would INSTANTLY stike them from my friend or best friend list. My self respect and self esteem would NOT allow anyone, least of all a best friend to mistreat me like your "friend" mistreated you. But there was a time when I was desperate, CLINGY and very insecure that almost everyone abused me like your so-called friend did to you.

During that time, and actually the whole time I've known her, she has always been terrible about plans, returning phone calls, returning texts. Twice during this time she has purposefully screened my calls for weeks, to the point where I would either just blame myself (depression/self esteem issues) or think that she was so busy she just didn't have time. THat was usually the excuse.

Yes, just more RED FLAGS. She NEVER WAS your best friend or even a friend but simply used your "depression/self esteem issues" to her own advantage. Users are very attracted to people with low/weak self worth!

We were close for a long time, and knew everything about one another, or so I thought, but now she's made me feel like a crazy stalker.

And that's how USERS are - they USE everyone!

I think she is a good person in many ways. I just also think that I have a tendency to attract manipulative people, and she may be one of them.

You have that right, IMO! In many ways, USERS (and Abusers) and their Victims automatically attract each other which all begins in early childhood when most of us are trained and programmed (by our parents) to be one or the other OR BOTH!

It might be that our relationship has always been so ruled by her whims that she thinks it's natural and nothing wrong.

Generally USER/ABUSERS (like your friend) never need to question their own behavior because they "have it made" and they don't get hurt while the Victims that they hurt (like you) often go into therapy to work through their issues and that is why mean people are never in therapy whereas their victims usually are.

I just don't know how far to back off.

I'd DROP such a USER in a heartbeat!

Where should I draw the line?

I'd draw the line right at the point my so-called best friend begins to HURT me! Friends DON'T carelessly hurt each other like is and has been happening to you.

What are the boundaries?

Google: Boundaries in Relationships and learn all about it. My basic boundary is: Insult, diss or ignorantly hurt me AND I'M GONE!

And how do I get over this long relationship that has been so core to my growing up?

I recommend that you google: Codependency and begin learning what it is and how to GET OVER it.
In my case, I studied a lot of Self Esteem info to finally develop some coping skills to handle USERS and it's amazing now to realize that I never needed these so-called best friends IF ONLY I'd been given better self respect and self esteem by my very dysfunctional parents when I was young. I was programmed early on by my parents to be a frightened, low self worth, doormat to them and my older so, when I went out into the world, I was carrying a huge sign on my back that read: KICK ME - I'M A SPINELESS DOORMAT! So then Users/Abusers came at me from all sides! But now that I have a back bone, USERS don't find me so attractive anymore!
I wish you luck in getting those USERS out of your life and finding the power to live better from now on,
jim

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by bluedonna92

Thank you for the responses.
I just wonder if our friendship was ever what i thought it was. I was always the one seeking her companionship, not vice versa, though I thought she wanted to spend time with me.

That is the whole basis of a Codependent relationship: The weak codependent (you) is always the one seeking this and that while the strong codependent (your friend) just USES the weaker one while APPEARING to be a friend!

I guess it's irrelevant now. The one thing I'm having trouble with now is boundaries.
I can respect her need to move away from me, but sometimes it feels like she doesn't respect what that requires. For instance, only last year when I visited her after a long hiatus, and was looking forward to hanging out no strings attached, she pressured me to pose for some artistic photographs, in a way that made me uncomfortable. I did it because she made me doubt my own maturity (come on...it'll be nothing) but I still did not like the way I looked in the photos, and when she put them online for her resume/website, I had to fight her to get them down.

A basic Boundary in any relationship is that we All have the RIGHT to say no to anything we don't like or want but Codependents do not respect each others RIGHTS at all! Your friend was able to "pressure" you because YOU did not have the integrity to stand up for your own RIGHTS thanks to some kind of early childhood training that FAILED to teach you what your natural RIGHTS are!

She seems to figure that because we are "friends" she can ask me to do whatever she wants and I'll do it.

She, like you, was trained and programed early on to be like that - most likely by her parents! She has the User programming while you have the doormat programming which is what Codependency is all about. You are BOTH codependent! She needs/needed you as much as you need/needed her.

Her reaction crossed a line. She was furious. She said I could not refuse once I had accepted, and that she would be embarrassed to tell the guy that I couldn't come.... We had such a huge argument

That is typical Codependent behavior where the controlling Codependent will not tolerate any changes in their: plans, intentions, desires, ideas, etc. and will seriously PUNISH anyone who dares challenge them - especially the other Codependent (you).

Honestly, I don't think she believes she was wrong. She finally apologized to me, but I think she still thinks this behavior was ok.

They NEVER believe they are "wrong" nor sincerely apologize because they have been programmed that way! Hitler was like that! They are taught from an early age to be in control, use weaker others and NEVER accept any responsibility for what they do. They are taught that everybody else makes mistake - NOT THEM!

We have a history of her guilt-tripping me into doing things,

That is the sad thing about Codependency that the two Codependents go together like a hand in a glove and were trained early on to be attracted to each other in a sad and sick way while looking like happy friends. In many cases, the User becomes the Victim and then the Victim uses the User. In Codependent theory, these two characters have a variety of names/labels such as Counter-Dependent (her) and Codependent (you) but it's always a drama of some unhealthy person USING another unhealthy person. Healthy people would never put up with that drama!

Since then we haven't seen much of each other though, and maybe she's grown out of it, or realized I won't accept that kind of behavior...

Usually, Codependents do NOT grow out of the sick parental conditioning that was programmed into them early on. It takes a lot of therapy and work to overcome the significant damages from early childhood that have produced the behaviors of all Codependents = Users and their Victims.
You may never see your User friend again but she was never the problem! Your early training to be the victim of such a User is the problem and, unless you figure out how to break the spell of Codependency in your self, you will most likely attract another User, marry one or bounce from one Codependent relationship to another BECAUSE you can't help it - so long as Codependent programming still dictates your choices and needs in life. It will be AUTOMATIC for you to be drawn to and WANT someone like your friend to pressure you and mentally or even physically push you around in life because this is familiar to you and you will unconsciously seek such domination and abuse.
The only way out of Codependency that I currently know of is to get into some kind of therapy or Recovery program and get started BREAKING OUT of the childhood training and programming that others dumped inside of you when you had no defense against what they did to you as a dependent, innocent and easily programmed child. I attended many Codependents Anonymous support groups where I learned to recognize my damages and HOW to fix myself - mostly with improved self esteem work.
I have probably written to much here but your whole story takes me right back to my own issues with and struggles to overcome Codependency and the childhood damages that were done by my Codependent parents.
Good luck over coming Codependency,
Jim

[hvert]

Not sure if this is similar to your situation or not, but I've had friendships that were pretty normal at the beginning, but which slowly degenerated to the point where the other person just sort of expected me to be at their beck and call. I also sit there trying to figure out if it was always that way or if it really did get worse over time.

It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of where you want your boundaries to be but had trouble when this person pushed. Her thing about the blind date just sounds insane -- has she never started a new job before??

Thanks everyone! Especially Jim, I'm looking up codependency and I definitely think it describes me in general. I do think, however that I tend to overanalyze, but in this case I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this relationship and find out whether it's worth preserving at some level.
I think she may be worth keeping at some level, as we grew up together, but maybe only as a friend in a very casual sense of the word. As in acquaintance, whom I happen to know a lot about. I'm gonna say no to future requests that make me uncomfortable, and just try to put less importance on our relationship in general. And if she crosses a line, I'll let her know.