[jimmy rich]

My first close relationship was with my 1 yr older brother who was closer to me than either of my parents ever were but, unfortunately for us, our parents failed to help my brother happily and respectfully accept me into HIS family when I was born and then temporarily took away the love and attention he had always enjoyed so he decided early on to see me as THE ENEMY and savagely punished me from then on. I suppose our parents could have taught him to treat me better after they could see how mean he was to me but I believe they actually enjoyed our little toddler skirmishes and assumed it was just “normal sibling rivalry”. Our “innocent” and harmless skirmishes turned pretty ugly and violent as we got older and I went from loving and respecting my older brother to hating his guts as much as he hated my guts and seeing him as THE ENEMY.

Getting back to our parents, I can now see that, after my brother and I reached about 4 to 5 and became a little too outspoken and troublesome, our embarrassed and alarmed parents suddenly saw both of us as ENEMIES and turned from permissive or indifferent parenting to harsh and abusive parenting to reign us both in after letting us run absolutely wild from day one. Once they decided we were THE ENEMY, everything went down hill from there.

I had very loving and respectful feelings for my older brother and my two parents but, like my older brother, I hated my little sister’s guts for the very same reason my brother hated my guts – inadequate parenting which failed to teach me to happily and lovingly accept our little sister into the family and I saw her as THE ENEMY but, unlike my brother, did not dare abuse her or dad would have MURDERED ME!

After about 5-6, I began to see my parents as THE ENEMY due to their harsh and abusive punishments and/or utter neglect. I can still remember the time when us boys were allowed to do just about anything and then, as if over night, the joy ride was over and mom and dad became two very dangerous ENEMIES. Once the hostility and FEAR set in, my reaction was to see my parents and my older brother as THE ENEMY and I slowly went underground to do my thing while trying to avoid punishment. I would have happily been honest, honorable and LOYAL to my parents but THEY - not me - made it impossible to stay loyal and respectful to them.

Once my parents set up the hideous conditions for my attitudes towards them, I gradually slipped down into: lying, stealing, cheating, damaging property and just about any and every CORRUPT behavior and attitudes I could pull off behind their menacing backs. Please don’t get me wrong. We did have some good times, laughs, fun, joy and “normal” family experiences BUT these were always tainted by the absolute certainty that our parents, especially dad, were going to say or do something, somewhere to HURT us kids and we were powerless to stop them or find a defense from their harsh punishments or shameful verbal abuses and other hurtful actions that are typical of an ENEMY.

Now that I am old enough to understand exactly what happened in our SICK family, it hurts a lot to realize that all of us could have and should have been GOOD FRIENDS from day one instead of the bitter, spiteful, FEARFUL and destructive ENEMIES that our parents created in the beginning with their extremely ignorant and abusive parenting.

I sincerely hope that the relationship with your parents or anybody else is not that of THE ENEMY.

jim

[Travelinglady]

I never thought of my parents as the enemy, although my mom was emotionally abusive.

It does sound like your parents were clueless in how to treat their children. Some jealousy and sibling rival is normal, but they should have tried to remember the older kid(s) when a new one came along. I am sorry that happened.

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by Travelinglady

Some jealousy and sibling rival is normal,

Sorry but IMO, sibling jealousy and rivalry is only "normal" where the parents or whoever is raising the kids completely FAILS to promote love and respect amongst the siblings thus allowing them to sink to the low levels of fear, jealousy and rivalry. In a normal, healthy family, respect, friendship and love will be AUTOMATIC.
There would have been NO sibling rivalry or jealousy in my family (or any other family) if only our very inadequate parents had made even the slightest effort to encourage us kids to be KIND to each other! Sibling rivalry is ALWAYS the sad consequence of BAD PARENTING!

[healingme4me]

I've seen families torn apart by dysfunction. I've seen dysfunctional families somehow with siblings that worked through it together. I've seen mixes and matches and variables and derivatives.
Guess, growing forward, is reaching a level of acceptance of the past, without harboring inner turmoil. Some type of inner serenity about it.

[Open Eyes]

Years ago Jimmi parents were not really taught about child developement and most parents your parent's age were of the generation where children were seen and not heard.
Yes, parents tended to dicipline too much, even teachers were meanies too.

Unfortunately, there are still parents that don't really "know" how to parent and the needs of developing children, often today's parents are self absorbed with their own issues from their bad parents.

Sorry that you struggled and are now very angry about it looking back. I was the youngest like your little sister, it was no picnic for me either. However, I do understand that my parents did not have the right help, even when they reached out for it.

OE

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

I was the youngest like your little sister, it was no picnic for me either.

I'm sorry that it was "no picnic" for you and hope that you can see how bad parenting may have caused whatever that "no picnic" thing was. It certainly hurts my feelings that my sister and I were not good friends until much later in life when I finally understood the terrible parenting blunders that set all of us kids up to be jealous, abusive & spiteful ENEMIES from day one. I imagine that bad parenting might be useful if only to show a kid how NOT TO BE when it's their turn to be a parent. Are you a parent now?

However, I do understand that my parents did not have the right help, even when they reached out for it.

I wish I could offer my parents the same excuses for their parental failures but, since they clung to the notion that they did the very best they could and that us kids DESERVED the brutal punishments that we got, I find it impossible to excuse or over look their mistakes even though I fully understand WHY they were such bad parents. My parents would NEVER have "reached out" to learn anything about parenting since they were completely convinced that they were EXPERTS after helping to raise their own many siblings. I can appreciate how many people wish to excuse and absolve their parents of wrong doing in order to FORGIVE them and make peace with the past but, IMO, it will take some JUSTICE to help me forgive my very dysfunctional parents, especially since neither of them were ever willing to take any responsibility for their horrible handy work which eventually sent my brother to prison for ARMED ROBBERY!
I believe that anger is the appropriate response to INJUSTICE and mindless brutality and that JUSTICE is the first step to loosing or reducing one's anger over the violations of INJUSTICE. But, I am on my way to "getting over it" even if it doesn't seem like it or I am not moving as fast as others might wish.
I solute all of you who have forgiven and excused your inadequate parents and found peace for your self.
jim

[healingme4me]

(May need trigger for mention of sui)
I found myself unleashing many 'a vent filled with anger and blame towards my parents while I went through resolving all of that pain. People do eff up, every day.
My exh has a half brother in prison, same thing, I've a paternal uncle who was on and off in prison, until the last time, now it's permanent. I've a cousin, in prison for a long time. That group of cousins, distant contact, not because of being enemies, just by virtue of who's an addict and who isn't, safety thing. My dads family, bit off kilter, but it's tough to demonize completely my grandparents, as it's tough to completely demonize my uncle,rest his soul,and his wife. And certainly my ex husbands father was sui, when he was three so, who's to say half brothers mother was completely to blame for his choice to pull a gun?

I get the anger, though.

[Trippin2.0]

My sister and her husband have 3 daughters, 14, 10,and 7.

They've always done their best to foster healthy relationships between the girls, encouraging them to spend time together as a group and one on one.

Despite this there is some sibling rivalry, what I too would deem a "normal" amount, so if their parents are not behaving like the enemy you described, nor modelling any of their daughters into the enemy, who exactly is to blame here?

These are 3 well adjusted, loving, kind and intelligent girls, who sometimes behave as rivals, something I've seen in every family to a certain extent, where parents weren't frucking up there kids left right and centre...

I'm sorry for what you went through, but I get the feeling that because of that, and also your journey to healing, you tend to project and also generalize a lot where parent-child relationships are concerned.

That is to be expected of course when one lives through a heinous childhood, but I wonder if leaving some room for a difference of opinion or a different perception may not be of assistance toward you.

For example, what if your children display some normal rivalry, would you then assume you were a horrid parent, the enemy, that you failed your kids?

I would certainly hope not.

Because even though siblings can grow up loving eachother, we don't always like eachother, sometimes our characters are wayyy too different and its really hard to get along. Sometimes we wouldn't befriend some family members if they weren't family because they're "not our type" but we're forced to when we're young, because of the simple fact that they're family...and yes sometimes we compete for brownie points, attention or whatever, doesn't mean our parents frucked up and did a halfass job.

Just my 00.02, I'm hoping you're willing to make use of some of it.

[SnakeCharmer]

Jimmy Rich, I've read other threads and posts by you throughout the forums. I enjoy your perspective. By sharing your experiences, hope and knowledge, you may be helping those who are still suffering what you suffered.

I don't know where you are in processing and resolving and recovering from your bad childhood experiences. Wherever you are, please remember that anger and resentments are luxuries you can't afford. I know you know what that means and how important it is. Take care, Jimmy. I wish you the best.

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by healingme4me

(May need trigger for mention of sui)

What is "sui"?

I found myself unleashing many 'a vent filled with anger and blame towards my parents while I went through resolving all of that pain. People do eff up, every day.

What is "eff up"?

My exh has a half brother in prison, same thing, I've a paternal uncle who was on and off in prison, until the last time, now it's permanent.

Sorry about that. My brother is now living a normal life.

I've a cousin, in prison for a long time. That group of cousins, distant contact, not because of being enemies, just by virtue of who's an addict and who isn't, safety thing.

I'd guess that all of them are victims of some kind of INADEQUATE parenting.

My dads family, bit off kilter, but it's tough to demonize completely my grandparents, as it's tough to completely demonize my uncle,rest his soul,and his wife.

I sure wouldn't "demonize" anyone for their bad parenting or being the victims of bad parenting BUT calling something what it is seems appropriate to me which is why I am certain that bad parenting caused my brother to end up in jail. The story of how that all occurred is pretty long so I will spare others the trouble of reading it. Maybe others can see this in their own family and life if they look deeply and seriously enough.

And certainly my ex husbands father was sui, when he was three so, who's to say half brothers mother was completely to blame for his choice to pull a gun?

I have no idea what "sui" means but I am dead certain how and why bad parenting finally contributed to my brother's choice to commit armed robbery. I don't "blame" them for what he did but I absolutely blame them for setting him up to finally go there! Fortunately for him, he found some better and healthier role models in and after Prison to overcome the unhealthy conditioning our parents placed in him years before. The only reason that I did not submit to my parents inadequate programing was that I was extremely afraid of authority figures and never had the GUTS to turn to crime like my brother did. I often admired his courage to go against authority but never had the nerve to join a gang and pull off jobs!

I get the anger, though.

Cool! How are you dealing with your anger?
good luck,
jim

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

My sister and her husband have 3 daughters, 14, 10,and 7.
They've always done their best to foster healthy relationships between the girls, encouraging them to spend time together as a group and one on one.
Despite this there is some sibling rivalry, what I too would deem a "normal" amount, so if their parents are not behaving like the enemy you described, nor modelling any of their daughters into the enemy, who exactly is to blame here?

As Alice Miller [google her] would have said, unless someone can or is willing to closely EXAMINE the day to day, moment to moment interactions of the family members involved, there is no adequate way to say what is happening to produce what effects and, since there is not much information in your report, I'd have to say that, if the kids are struggling, their parents are NOT consistently promoting love, respect and friendship in the family.

These are 3 well adjusted, loving, kind and intelligent girls, who sometimes behave as rivals, something I've seen in every family to a certain extent, where parents weren't frucking up there kids left right and centre...

I believe I could spot the reasons for their rivalry if I had access to each and every daily event and detail of the family's interactions. In my family, the corruption and enemy making coming from our parents was glaringly obvious to everyone who knew us!

I'm sorry for what you went through, but I get the feeling that because of that, and also your journey to healing, you tend to project and also generalize a lot where parent-child relationships are concerned. That is to be expected of course when one lives through a heinous childhood,

Sorry but you are very WRONG about me! By the way, how was your childhood? I now can see the TRUTH about not only my parents and family but most other families and I've also seen over and over that most parents are fanatically committed to defending them self and other parents from being examined and/or having their parenting questioned. IMO, the institution of parenting is NOT some Sacred, Untouchable Cow!

but I wonder if leaving some room for a difference of opinion or a different perception may not be of assistance toward you.

So long as it's the TRUTH and not just more attacks to defend Parenting, I'm open to it.

For example, what if your children display some normal rivalry, would you then assume you were a horrid parent, the enemy, that you failed your kids? I would certainly hope not.

What is your definition of "normal rivalry"?
If, after my wife & I did our best to promote love, respect and dignity in our family but our kids displayed any kind of hostile "rivalry" (not healthy competition), us parents would stop at nothing to find out why our kids are fighting and, if it's about our own bad parenting, we would quickly go looking for solutions for our parental FAILURES in order to HELP our kids return to being LOVING FRIENDS and not jealous, rivalrous enemies! [from an online dictionary: Rivalry: Synonyms: opposition, antagonism; jealousy.]
IMO, the term "normal rivalry" is a convenient term that parents invented to WHITE WASH the unhealthy: anger, FEAR, resentment, hostility, jealousy, etc. in their damaged children and also to DISGUISE (Smoke screen) their own bad parenting while passing the hot potato to their kids! The term "normal rivalry" is another way to say: "Yes my kids hate each other but I'll just pretend that it's some innocent, little harmless thing that all kids get into and I'll just laugh it off or ignore it so long as it doesn't EFFECT ME!

Because even though siblings can grow up loving eachother, we don't always like eachother, sometimes our characters are wayyy too different and its really hard to get along.

I don't know who this "we" is but in my case, our very negligent and inadequate parents FAILED to help us happily, respectfully and LOVINGLY accept each other from the 1st day we were born starting with their first son. We were all "different" but it was parenting failures that caused us NOT to get along! We could have all been very good & best friends from day one IF ONLY our stupid parents had allowed or encouraged it.

Sometimes we wouldn't befriend some family members if they weren't family because they're "not our type" but we're forced to when we're young, because of the simple fact that they're family.

Just speaking for my self and my family, those are all examples of very bad and inadequate parental conditioning! There is NO excuse not to befriend someone just because they are "not our type" or at least show them some common courtesy! But many people were shunned and gossiped about behind their backs by our parents and other in-laws thus setting a ROTTEN example for all of the kids in our family. LOL, I was "forced" to do and be a lot of things when I was young and had no experience or defense against the very bad parental and in-law examples given to me!

..and yes sometimes we compete for brownie points, attention or whatever, doesn't mean our parents frucked up and did a halfass job.

IMO, parents doing a halfass, frucked up job is the whole and entire reason and cause for innocent, inexperienced children to "compete for brownie points, attention or whatever" which are ALL symptoms of insecurity, fear, anger, desperation, loneliness, NEGLECT, jealousy and many other sad consequences of frucked up, halfass parenting. I know that most if not all of my insecurities, fears, bad self esteem, anger, jealousy, cruelty and incredible SORROW were the direct result of the bad parenting I fell victim to and I now see that my parents and their parents and their parents ALL suffered from the same sad and sorry consequences as I did BUT they never found any way to fix it nor even looked for a way but just mindlessly lived their miserable, unhappy lives to their bitter, sick, alcoholic, cancerous end without ever realizing what had been done to all of them when they were innocent little kids.

Just my 00.02, I'm hoping you're willing to make use of some of it.

I would take you more seriously if you were willing to use the word "I" more often and write of your own experiences while refraining from attacking me and my experiences and concepts but you are welcome to your opinions just as I believe I am in this forum. The only thing that could ever help any of us is to offer others our own experience and understanding and LET them draw their own conclusions so, thanks for offering your opinions here.
jim

[Trippin2.0]

You know what?
Nevermind.

Just forget I said anything, I mistook you for someone willing to see reason, my bad.

I don't come here to waste my time, I come here to offer support and a different perspective. But evidently you do come here to waste time, because not only do you post and reject any ideas different to yours, but I'm not even gonna bother to read past the first paragraph of your response because its completely irrelevant to me. I'm not the one with hangups regarding the demonization of all parents imperfect.

Goodluck, you sincerely need it, as help clearly isn't an option for you.

Ciao

Ps. You may want to include that you only seek agreeable responses on all your threads. Saves people like me from wasting our time trying to reach out.

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by SnakeCharmer

Jimmy Rich, I've read other threads and posts by you throughout the forums. I enjoy your perspective. By sharing your experiences, hope and knowledge, you may be helping those who are still suffering what you suffered.

Hello SnakeCharmer: Thanks for the boost. Sharing is the most important thing I ever found in sharing meetings & at support groups. It's offered as just my opinions and NOT some wizardly lecture.

I don't know where you are in processing and resolving and recovering from your bad childhood experiences.

I'm far enough along to understand exactly how and why our parents damaged us and exactly how to overcome those injuries. How's your recovery process going?

Wherever you are, please remember that anger and resentments are luxuries you can't afford.

Please speak for your self using the "I" word. It will feel more genuine if you do.

I know you know what that means and how important it is.

LOL, what does that mean to you?
good luck with your recovery,
jim

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

You know what?
Nevermind. Just forget I said anything, I mistook you for someone willing to see reason, my bad.

You seem quite ANGRY there. If that was may problem, I'd do some anger work with a therapist or in an anger workshop ASAP.

I don't come here to waste my time, I come here to offer support and a different perspective. But evidently you do come here to waste time, because not only do you post and reject any ideas different to yours, but I'm not even gonna bother to read past the first paragraph of your response because its completely irrelevant to me. I'm not the one with hangups regarding the demonization of all parents imperfect. Goodluck, you sincerely need it, as help clearly isn't an option for you.

Whew! I see ANGER! there! I'd get myself a therapist if I were you!

Ciao

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by jimmy rich

What is "sui"?
What is "eff up"?
Sorry about that. My brother is now living a normal life.
I'd guess that all of them are victims of some kind of INADEQUATE parenting.
I sure wouldn't "demonize" anyone for their bad parenting or being the victims of bad parenting BUT calling something what it is seems appropriate to me which is why I am certain that bad parenting caused my brother to end up in jail. The story of how that all occurred is pretty long so I will spare others the trouble of reading it. Maybe others can see this in their own family and life if they look deeply and seriously enough.
I have no idea what "sui" means but I am dead certain how and why bad parenting finally contributed to my brother's choice to commit armed robbery. I don't "blame" them for what he did but I absolutely blame them for setting him up to finally go there! Fortunately for him, he found some better and healthier role models in and after Prison to overcome the unhealthy conditioning our parents placed in him years before. The only reason that I did not submit to my parents inadequate programing was that I was extremely afraid of authority figures and never had the GUTS to turn to crime like my brother did. I often admired his courage to go against authority but never had the nerve to join a gang and pull off jobs!
Cool! How are you dealing with your anger?
good luck,
jim

You'll need to look up PC's acronym list.

I am glad your brother is now leading a normal life. Good for him! Overcoming the enemy making parenting of your childhood, there's hope at the end of the tunnel. The original posting didn't give a hopeful impression.

How did I overcome my anger? Oh dear, that's still a work in progress. Much like yourself, therapy and self help and utilizing a bit of step program guidance, and having a deep spiritual faith, of course.
Hope you have a good day, jimi.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by jimmy rich

As Alice Miller [google her] would have said, unless someone can or is willing to closely EXAMINE the day to day, moment to moment interactions of the family members involved, there is no adequate way to say what is happening to produce what effects and, since there is not much information in your report, I'd have to say that, if the kids are struggling, their parents are NOT consistently promoting love, respect and friendship in the family.
I believe I could spot the reasons for their rivalry if I had access to each and every daily event and detail of the family's interactions. In my family, the corruption and enemy making coming from our parents was glaringly obvious to everyone who knew us!
Sorry but you are very WRONG about me! By the way, how was your childhood? I now can see the TRUTH about not only my parents and family but most other families and I've also seen over and over that most parents are fanatically committed to defending them self and other parents from being examined and/or having their parenting questioned. IMO, the institution of parenting is NOT some Sacred, Untouchable Cow!
So long as it's the TRUTH and not just more attacks to defend Parenting, I'm open to it.
What is your definition of "normal rivalry"?
If, after my wife & I did our best to promote love, respect and dignity in our family but our kids displayed any kind of hostile "rivalry" (not healthy competition), us parents would stop at nothing to find out why our kids are fighting and, if it's about our own bad parenting, we would quickly go looking for solutions for our parental FAILURES in order to HELP our kids return to being LOVING FRIENDS and not jealous, rivalrous enemies! [from an online dictionary: Rivalry: Synonyms: opposition, antagonism; jealousy.]
IMO, the term "normal rivalry" is a convenient term that parents invented to WHITE WASH the unhealthy: anger, FEAR, resentment, hostility, jealousy, etc. in their damaged children and also to DISGUISE (Smoke screen) their own bad parenting while passing the hot potato to their kids! The term "normal rivalry" is another way to say: "Yes my kids hate each other but I'll just pretend that it's some innocent, little harmless thing that all kids get into and I'll just laugh it off or ignore it so long as it doesn't EFFECT ME!
I don't know who this "we" is but in my case, our very negligent and inadequate parents FAILED to help us happily, respectfully and LOVINGLY accept each other from the 1st day we were born starting with their first son. We were all "different" but it was parenting failures that caused us NOT to get along! We could have all been very good & best friends from day one IF ONLY our stupid parents had allowed or encouraged it.
Just speaking for my self and my family, those are all examples of very bad and inadequate parental conditioning! There is NO excuse not to befriend someone just because they are "not our type" or at least show them some common courtesy! But many people were shunned and gossiped about behind their backs by our parents and other in-laws thus setting a ROTTEN example for all of the kids in our family. LOL, I was "forced" to do and be a lot of things when I was young and had no experience or defense against the very bad parental and in-law examples given to me!
IMO, parents doing a halfass, frucked up job is the whole and entire reason and cause for innocent, inexperienced children to "compete for brownie points, attention or whatever" which are ALL symptoms of insecurity, fear, anger, desperation, loneliness, NEGLECT, jealousy and many other sad consequences of frucked up, halfass parenting. I know that most if not all of my insecurities, fears, bad self esteem, anger, jealousy, cruelty and incredible SORROW were the direct result of the bad parenting I fell victim to and I now see that my parents and their parents and their parents ALL suffered from the same sad and sorry consequences as I did BUT they never found any way to fix it nor even looked for a way but just mindlessly lived their miserable, unhappy lives to their bitter, sick, alcoholic, cancerous end without ever realizing what had been done to all of them when they were innocent little kids.
I would take you more seriously if you were willing to use the word "I" more often and write of your own experiences while refraining from attacking me and my experiences and concepts but you are welcome to your opinions just as I believe I am in this forum. The only thing that could ever help any of us is to offer others our own experience and understanding and LET them draw their own conclusions so, thanks for offering your opinions here.
jim

I was a little uncertain upon reading the original post, if this was in turn, an 'I am a Victim' mentality.
I feel that yes, parenting is a hot trigger topic of discussion. I'm a bit confused, as to whether the writing is a soap box or a means to discuss betterment of others?

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by healingme4me

I'm a bit confused, as to whether the writing is a soap box or a means to discuss betterment of others?

Take your pick or toss a coin.
jim

[SnakeCharmer]

Ah, Jimmy, I'm sorry. I thought my meaning was clear. Actually, I was taking in the totality of the threads and posts of yours I've read and enjoyed throughout the forums. Perhaps my post here seemed to come out of left field and held no direct meaning to this subject matter, although I thought it did. There have been a few little things in other threads that left me a bit worried. I will post in the areas that are probably more appropriate.

The saying is that anger is a luxury we can't afford. And I have no trouble saying both anger and resentment are luxuries I can't afford because I

commenced to see their terrible destructiveness. Page 70.

I do sometimes have concerns for others as well as myself and try to carry a message forward that has worked for thousands of people. I do apologize if my particular choice of words were out of place in this particular thread. Actually, I thought I was preaching to the choir and no explanation would be necessary. It's not something I would have shared otherwise.

Part of that message is this, which I find extremely apropos for this thread:

We began to see that the world and its people really dominated us. In that state, the wrong-doing of others, fancied or real, had power to actually kill. (Page 66)

I've read Alice Miller, too, and don't know if the two approaches are really compatible. Everyone has to make their own choices. I wish you the best.

[Fuzzybear]