[BobbyDavis]

For the record, I have never read the novels but my Wife and sister have read parts of one and my sister said it was poorly written sexist garbage and my Wife (who is a victim of rape) found it very offensive and thinks the book should be banned in Australia. I don’t personally have an opinion about it myself but since its release I have noticed the 50 Shades series has gone on to become best sellers but have been the subject of much controversy with some people claiming it sick and disgusting because of its dark themes and the graphic way it depicts rape and domestic abuse. The musical came under heavy criticism here because it was said to be full of rape jokes and many of the people that liked the series of novels even put the musical down and argued that it should be banned.

Recent studies have shown an alarming one in three women in relationships suffers from some form of domestic abuse in abuse in Australia and one woman is murdered every day by her partner. These figures are up compared to one in five in 2010 and one in ten in 2007 with more than 27, 000 acts of domestic abuse being reported to police last year in the state of New South Wales alone and 18, 000 acts of domestic abuse reported in Victoria. Cases of domestic violence are said to be more common among women in relationships between the ages of 17-30 with more than 70 percent of women that have reported domestic abuse in Australia making up those figures. Some groups argue this is due to the ‘pornification’ of Gen Y, the easy access young boys have to porn online, misogynistic lyrics in rap music, oversexualised music videos and the success of books like 50 Shades of Grey.

The New South Wales and Victorian State Governments are making lots of changes and starting from 2015 new classes for young boys will be introduced into public and high schools in both states which will teach boys to respect girls and help girls identify abusers in the early stages of a relationship and how to report them to the police. New laws in Victoria could see domestic abusers jailed for up to 15 years without a confession from the victim because one in five women that has reported abuse went on to later deny the claims in recent years due to fear. This is the second time the State Government has introduced laws to combat domestic violence in the last two years and after the surprising death of Luke Batty who was psychically abused and eventually killed by his Father but his Mother failed to report her ex-husband’s behaviour to police new laws were brought in which see woman who fail to report their partner or ex-partner’s abuse of children face up to five years in prison.

What are your thoughts?

[gloamingone]

I've read it. And reread it. And then got the sequels and read them, too. They aren't for the faint of heart, that's for sure. And yes, they are definitely poorly written.

Are they responsible for domestic violence? I seriously doubt that. After all, the majority of people reading them are women, not men. Not to say women can't be abusers, of course, but it's not as common.

The books are about a dom (dominant) trying to have a BDSM relationship with a woman who is only somewhat submissive. BDSM play is not domestic violence as long as both parties are on board with the idea.

Gradually in the books, the heroine teaches her dom to be able to have a more normal relationship.

I'm a very picky reader and usually won't tolerate a poorly written book, but the sex scenes are on fire. Only reason I read them, to tell the truth, and I'm sure many women would agree with me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LFC555]

No. People are responsible for their own actions and to say that their behaviour is influenced by a fictional book....well, I don't think that argument carries much weight.

And the 50 Shades of Grey books were so 3 years ago....Do people still read them?

[Maria116]

A friend told me it's poorly written, repetitive and boring.

[eskielover]

I'm taking a strong stand on society in general & all the movies & entertainment that totally desensitizes people to moral & respectful values of other people. It's not just one book, it's not just one movie....it's not just one play.....it's the overwhelming volumn of ALL those values being placed in front of people & making them feel that it's more & more the norm & what becomes the norm becomes more & more accepted as the way that is acceptable to act.

This whole thing has started ages ago but it's definitely increasing over the years.

Look at the dancing that they used to think was unacceptable with Elvis....& look at the sleeze that comes out of the entertainment business these days that is just accepted by EVERYONE & no protests & those who do protest are told they are the ones with the problem.

Then we are being brainwashed with this relativity idea....where if it's ok for someone else then we can't possibly be wrong for us & they have to be allowed to think & act the way they want to......where does the line get drawn.....& the longer that goes on the less of a line that can be drawn.

Societies sexual freedom is doing NO ONE any favors. It's just making it more difficult to draw the lines between what is & isn't abuse & unacceptable treatment of others

[Maria116]

Originally Posted by eskielover

Societies sexual freedom is doing NO ONE any favors. It's just making it more difficult to draw the lines between what is & isn't abuse & unacceptable treatment of others

I agree. Last night I went on a first date with a man I had met online. We had drinks at a pub on 3rd Ave. in midtown Manhattan. We had a nice time, he was educated etc, came off as a quality kind of man. I decided to see him again. To my surprise he suggested going back to his place "to watch movies." I said no, he kept asking, I said: come on, I just met you. I made it clear I wanted to wait for sex. We went outside, he offered me a ride back to my parking garage. Like an idiot I said yes. In the car, he started heavy making out. He's a big guy, I'm a light girl. He ignored my no's, but no, I did not fight him or scream or run out of the car. I should have. He drove me back to the garage. Today I woke up with bruises on my legs and feeling so disgusted I can't describe it. And today he texted me like nothing had happened - so how is your day going. Now I'm reading a New York Times article on something called "Gray rape." I think that's what happened. And I guess he thought everything was totally fine and we'd meet up again! Well no. If you wanted to date me, you could have. But you can't use the same woman as dating material and a cheap f****.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by BobbyDavis

Recent studies have shown an alarming one in three women in relationships suffers from some form of domestic abuse in abuse in Australia and one woman is murdered every day by her partner. These figures are up compared to one in five in 2010 and one in ten in 2007 with more than 27, 000 acts of domestic abuse being reported to police last year in the state of New South Wales alone and 18, 000 acts of domestic abuse reported in Victoria. Cases of domestic violence are said to be more common among women in relationships between the ages of 17-30 with more than 70 percent of women that have reported domestic abuse in Australia making up those figures. Some groups argue this is due to the ‘pornification’ of Gen Y, the easy access young boys have to porn online, misogynistic lyrics in rap music, oversexualised music videos and the success of books like 50 Shades of Grey.

No, i think people are just more willing to report these crimes and admit to others that they happened. Overall, there is more of a dialogue.

I DO however, think that the '50 shades of [CRAP]' books have made the concept of S&M sexier to the average person (esp. women, unfortunately) although the male protagonist reveals that he engages in these violent sexual games because he hates his mother and every woman he chooses reminds him of her. The author has admitted she didn't actually research any sort of BDSM information before writing it (it started as an online Twilight fanfic project, no surprise there based on the ****** writing), and she assumed that BDSM 'players' are reenacting or playing out fantasies linked to prior violent experiences (no research to prove this, either).

NOW:
For an interesting development of this behaviour and its real-life consequences, just google "Jian Ghomeshi", a Canadian media-star turned recent pariah based on the 14 women who have come forward in only a month's time with claims of abuse & assault against him. He tried to paint it as "rough consensual sex" as the allegations first began to surface, but it is starting to appear that he is the only party to ever believe there was consent on everyone's part.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by Maria116

Today I woke up with bruises on my legs and feeling so disgusted I can't describe it. And today he texted me like nothing had happened - so how is your day going. Now I'm reading a New York Times article on something called "Gray rape." I think that's what happened. And I guess he thought everything was totally fine and we'd meet up again! Well no. If you wanted to date me, you could have. But you can't use the same woman as dating material and a cheap f****.

WOW. What an ***-hat. Seriously.

You don't owe him anything, girl. You tell him, 'I like a man who understands that when a woman says "No" she means "NO". You're a cock with no brain. **** off'.

Listen to that gut feeling, ladies (and gentlemen). Don't ever put yourselves in an uncomfortable or dangerous situation simply because you were afraid that saying 'no' would make you seem rude. Be rude.

And for the record, Maria, none of that was your fault. You told him what you did (and didn't) want, and he didn't listen. HE'S THE IDIOT -- NOT YOU.

[Maria116]

Originally Posted by Solipsist

Listen to that gut feeling, ladies (and gentlemen). Don't ever put yourselves in an uncomfortable or dangerous situation simply because you were afraid that saying 'no' would make you seem rude. Be rude.

Very true.

[seeker1950]

I haven't read 50 Shades, partly because I feel I've experienced some of that myself, and, now, much older, I'm still dealing with a form of PTSD because of it. At various times in my life, I've marveled that I'm still alive. Putting oneself into such dangerous and precarious situations can only result in trauma, in my humble opinion.

[Shadix]

Not sure, but I certainly don't agree with the idea of banning books. It's like when people say we should ban violent video games because of school shootings. You start going down a very slippery slope then eventually we live in a country like North Korea.

[Shadix]

Originally Posted by eskielover

I'm taking a strong stand on society in general & all the movies & entertainment that totally desensitizes people to moral & respectful values of other people. It's not just one book, it's not just one movie....it's not just one play.....it's the overwhelming volumn of ALL those values being placed in front of people & making them feel that it's more & more the norm & what becomes the norm becomes more & more accepted as the way that is acceptable to act.

This whole thing has started ages ago but it's definitely increasing over the years.

Look at the dancing that they used to think was unacceptable with Elvis....& look at the sleeze that comes out of the entertainment business these days that is just accepted by EVERYONE & no protests & those who do protest are told they are the ones with the problem.

Then we are being brainwashed with this relativity idea....where if it's ok for someone else then we can't possibly be wrong for us & they have to be allowed to think & act the way they want to......where does the line get drawn.....& the longer that goes on the less of a line that can be drawn.

Societies sexual freedom is doing NO ONE any favors. It's just making it more difficult to draw the lines between what is & isn't abuse & unacceptable treatment of others

So are you suggesting society should promote Christian values? Then who's to say we shouldn't promote Islamic values instead? Or Confucian values? Because most people in our society these days don't identify with Christian values anymore than you identify with Islamic or Confucian values.

And no, abuse has nothing to do with sexual freedom.

[Trippin2.0]

No, I doubt the books have anything to do with the increase in Domestic Violence, maybe awareness campaigns are just causing more cases to be reported.

The books have absolutely jack shyt to do about violence and rape, the only acts of violence committed is when the Protagonist's past is brought up, explaining why he is as twisted as he is in the present day.

The relationship between the 2 main characters is portrayed as kinky but nurturing, a safe environment for 2 consenting (and future loving) adults.

No acts of violence are committed toward the girlfriend, she is a consenting adult, and wasn't forced to engage in any kind of sexual acts.
They practiced open communication regarding what is ok and what is taboo in the bedroom, as well as in the relationship itself, and didn't engage in anything against her will, or even anything that felt unsafe to her.

I can't read or watch DV, rape, or any kind of sexual abuse shyt, I have been beaten to a pulp by an ex bf, and I was molested as a child, and I find such story lines actually disgust me.

These books definitely did not have DV, rape or abuse themes.

If anything, the main theme that was explored is trust.
She trusted him with her body, and in return he learned how to trust her with his heart...

Some people are intrinsically sick and twisted, blaming or banning books and games won't cure them.

If a public poll can show that most of the women who read these books went on to abuse their partners afterward, then I will retract my statement.

[seeker1950]

Linda Lovelace stated she hoped pornography became "mainstream" in American film culture.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...groups-9628565.

[BobbyDavis]

Forget the 40 Shades of Grey books everybody. According to the Greens we have it all wrong and the main cause of domestic abuse is monster trucks and Barbie dolls with groups claiming boys that play with monster trucks are most likely to become domestic abusers and girls that play with Barbie dolls are most likely to become victims of domestic absue later in life. This is honestly the most ridiciolous load of crap I have ever heard and it is all over the news here in Australia and they want to ban them from the shops and thankfully most people with common sense are ignoring them. My Wife and I do not buy our daughters Barbie dolls and we didn’t have them or monster trucks when we were young but I know a lot of men and women that grew up playing with toy cards, toy trucks and dolls that are not violent or victims of domestic violence and I am not sure where these beliefs have come from.

I don’t blame the rise of domestic abuse in Australia along with the rise of rape on a book or toys but I do blame part of it on the pornification of Generation Y specifically the easy access to various forms of pornography young boys now have on the internet and it’s sickening to hear there are young boys only two years older than my step daughter being arrested for raping girls and making them play-out scenes they have watched in pornographic movies. My Wife was raped when she was 19 and she got pregnant and even though she was severely bullied nearly every day at her old school by other girls and boys she says rape was not something she had to worry about back then nor was it for my sister or any of my other female friends and it is only recent that we are seeing rapists as young as this.

We are also seeing kids taking knives and screwdrivers to schools to use as weapons and there was a 12 year old boy who tried to attack a group of Jewish kids outside a school in Sydney and it’s crazy to see how messed up things are becoming. I am not trying to say domestic abuse or rape is new by any means and we are definitely seeing more cases reported now because many women aren’t as scared to come forward anymore which is a good thing but the statistics show domestic abuse is growing in numbers and we only have to look at the increase of alcohol related violence which is currently at an all-time high in Australia. According to a current affair type programs alcohol related violence is close to taking over smoking as the leading cause of death in Australia and that might sound surprising to some but not to people such as myself that live around the areas where it is most common.

Recent statistics show up to 90 percent of alcohol and drug related violence is caused by Gen Y (with males between the ages 18-25 being responsible for most coward’s punches) and while I won’t go as far to say they are all violent little turds with no morals or respect for other people like my sister says because I have met some that aren’t the statistics speak for themselves. My Wife’s uncle is a federal police officer and during his 35 years of experience he says there are more violent crimes happening now than ever and most of those crimes of course are caused by the same age group and when you have violent crimes skyrocketing it is only natural other crimes like domestic abuse and rape will rise too and you can blame most of it on the broken court system.

[BobbyDavis]

Originally Posted by Maria116

I agree. Last night I went on a first date with a man I had met online. We had drinks at a pub on 3rd Ave. in midtown Manhattan. We had a nice time, he was educated etc, came off as a quality kind of man. I decided to see him again. To my surprise he suggested going back to his place "to watch movies." I said no, he kept asking, I said: come on, I just met you. I made it clear I wanted to wait for sex. We went outside, he offered me a ride back to my parking garage. Like an idiot I said yes. In the car, he started heavy making out. He's a big guy, I'm a light girl. He ignored my no's, but no, I did not fight him or scream or run out of the car. I should have. He drove me back to the garage. Today I woke up with bruises on my legs and feeling so disgusted I can't describe it. And today he texted me like nothing had happened - so how is your day going. Now I'm reading a New York Times article on something called "Gray rape." I think that's what happened. And I guess he thought everything was totally fine and we'd meet up again! Well no. If you wanted to date me, you could have. But you can't use the same woman as dating material and a cheap f****.

I am sorry to hear that happened to you the other night Maria116 but you have to learn to fight back because if you don’t there are always going to be people like him that will take advantage of you and when you say “no” the only thing they are going to hear is “yes.” I am not a violent person but I grew up with an abusive Father that got drunk most nights and physically abused me and my big sister and the last time he did it I hit back and I knocked him out. Learning to defend yourself can be hard and if you have never been in a fight it will be harder but you can be small or light and take down guys that are twice your size if you know the right moves. After my Wife was raped she learned how to defend herself so no bloke could ever hurt her again and while she might be pregnant now when she isn't she can take me down and she is only 5 ’7.

I think it is important for women to learn to defend themselves these days because there are a lot of blokes that will try to take advantage of them and my Wife taught my step daughter some basic self-defence moves and she is going to do the same thing with all our daughters when they are older but if any bloke lays a hand on one of my daughters I will find out just what hand he used and then I will smash it with a hammer.

[hamster-bamster]

@Maria116 - do not get into the same car with gentlemen who clearly are not trustworthy. In this Manhattan incident you described, it is clear that by the time he invited you into his car you had collected enough intelligence on this man to tell him: "Thanks, I would rather walk a bit to the parking garage. I love taking walks in Midtown (or whatever part of Manhattan you were in). You can take a walk with me if you would like to chat a bit more..." Granted, sometimes self-defense is needed, and I have fought rape attempts physically twice, including one time fighting a tall and super muscular guy who bent on health and organic food, and I am 5'5'' -- successfully, and no it was intuitive as I never studied self-defense, but such cases are rare if you practice basic precautions.

You wrote in your post that you should have run out of the car. This is wrong. A car is a moving object, even with the slow traffic on Manhattan. You made a mistake getting into the car, but once there, you made the right choice to persevere because fighting the man in a moving vehicle is extremely dangerous and can be deadly. I have never heard the word combination "gray rape" before, but if I understand what it means, it sure is far better than being dead or maimed for life. So please try not to get into cars like that again, but if it happens again, as we all make mistakes, do not attempt fighting in a car. Very, very dangerous.

[bass2187]

it seems kinda far fetched and an excuse

[hamster-bamster]

@Maria116 - in your post, you addressed the man as "you", at the end of the post, so it seems that you want to tell HIM that HE missed the chance to date YOU. Saying it on here partially lets you vent, but it would be more fruitful to actually write it to HIM.

So I wonder if you also communicated that to him, and, in general, whether you provided him with negative feedback.

[Maria116]

@hamster-bamster,
Thanks for your concern. No, the car was not moving, it was parked, thence my comment that maybe I should have just run out.

I did tell him the following day that I was not happy about what had happened, I said "it was unnecessary." I did not use dramatic language as I had not resisted him, in fact I eventually went with the motions. I have experienced being forcefully molested as a child by a grown-up stranger (he said I needed to do what he said if I wanted to ever come home alive), and as an adult I've always had a problem saying no to men's sexual advances. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a loose woman - I've been celibate for five years after my divorce - but in the actual situations when I'm with a man and he wants sex and I know it's not the right time, I am afraid to say no. I'm afraid of making him upset or angry. Actually, your words to me "don't be afraid to be rude" - I decided to take heed. I told myself IT'S OKAY TO SAY NO. I'm 35 and am getting back out in the dating scene, so there may be more situations in the future where I will need to firmly say NO without fear. Anyway, he apologized and I accepted, we are not dating anymore though.

[Yismymindblank12]

The books don't do anything or society has to do with domestic violence. I mean it's been in the spotlight, more, but the only reason domestic violence happens, because the parents don't let their sons or daughters respect other people and not raise them to see people are people. Not objects to take your aggression on.

Boys are taught to hide their feelings and overachieve even in way back when. You are completely out of the loop if you believe domestic violence is a modern crisis. It's a human crisis since ever, I never believed as a man, both men and women are different. They are human, despite biological traits, human is strong in both. Violence shouldn't be the answer and 50 shades of grey is an opening to the bdsm community that already suffers enough bad stigma, but recently finally reaching the public eye. Why people are making a huge deal about it now with that book is because many people who want to try bdsm or get into it as the average couple to test each other's trust aren't careful and safe? BDSM has it's risks and to be prepared as a couple to take them mutually.. So domestic violence and 50 shades of grey are completely two different things. Domestic violence isn't just men, it's both men and women, more than half are men, but it's closer to 50/50 of the statistics even the unreported ones from men are at an all sky high.

I find it infuriating that this gender issue is a one sided ordeal. It's one sided, because women are getting the *** end and it sucks. I'm not one, I see it a lot and I hate it. It's stupid, like women are people like men, but men in this society who haven't got it that their needs to be everyone person in this country who has children need to take care of their children and don't leave the gf when she's pregnant even if she is with someone else. It starts with bad parenting with a history of domestic violence. I'm surrounded with this stuff, so it's silly to say a book is the cause of it.

Completely ignorant. Domestic violence is a societal and parenting issue. I feel that parents need to nurture boys and that given to not having to man up all the time and needs to take care of themselves and others. That life isn't always about using force and know when to step up and be mindful of yourself and others.

This issue will always be persistent until people everywhere actively do better parenting and mothers nurturing their boys instead of ignoring them, because they need to man up about it and stop crying. Also better fathers to show them what mindfulness really is and showing that their actions have consequences and prove that when it comes to women, treat them as individuals not as the wholesome body to use at their will.

That's the heart of the feminism issue, is respect not just from men, but self respect, promoting love and support that our current system in society is distorted and won't change till everyone is active and persistent to better ideals. This will take a very long time. I'm fed up with all this complaints of how it should be this or that and there isn't enough action.. I only support the things when it does something practical and works.

For women to feel not afraid of men, it will take a very long time or not depends on how persistent and widespread how the ideals that's put over generations to show that we aren't what we were before. Women need no protection and are capable to do what men do on their own abilities that they set their mind to. Despite society making it hard on women, they are much stronger to understand and living life to push past the limits of most men and women.

I'm getting off track, but it's not that simple. I find it ignorant how people will shove this in a very biased direction.. A few large groups of individuals who are against this are going to stop this issue. I'm saying people in this country just need to make the change themselves as parents.

but as of now I don't see that happening any time soon... I see more of this issue growing, and this will go down a downward slope of people not getting to the heart of the issue and helping the annoyance of some problems related to it. Like this book for being banned.

So keep in mind, BDSM completely consensual, it requires trust to actually happen. Domestic violence, is just an aggressor and their victim for control.

completely two different things.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Maria116

@hamster-bamster,
Thanks for your concern. No, the car was not moving, it was parked, thence my comment that maybe I should have just run out.

I did tell him the following day that I was not happy about what had happened, I said "it was unnecessary." I did not use dramatic language as I had not resisted him, in fact I eventually went with the motions. I have experienced being forcefully molested as a child by a grown-up stranger (he said I needed to do what he said if I wanted to ever come home alive), and as an adult I've always had a problem saying no to men's sexual advances. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a loose woman - I've been celibate for five years after my divorce - but in the actual situations when I'm with a man and he wants sex and I know it's not the right time, I am afraid to say no. I'm afraid of making him upset or angry. Actually, your words to me "don't be afraid to be rude" - I decided to take heed. I told myself IT'S OKAY TO SAY NO. I'm 35 and am getting back out in the dating scene, so there may be more situations in the future where I will need to firmly say NO without fear. Anyway, he apologized and I accepted, we are not dating anymore though.

OK, since you already talked to him and he apologized, it is kind of late, although if you know his email address or cell phone number of his FB page or any other contact info that permits writing, and, if you care at least a bit about how he treats the next woman he tries dating, you could still send him the following:

"Dear ABC,

Let me give you feedback on our "date" - feedback that you can hopefully incorporate into your behaviors and attitudes, both to the benefit of the women you will be seeing in the future (no, I won't be one of them, see in more detail below on the reasons why) and, believe me, your own benefit.

The evening was going well and I was starting to like and appreciate you. You seemed like {list his positive attributes} and I was beginning to think that you and I would have fun spending time together and then, perhaps, seeing if we would like to add sex into the mix. So by the time we finished our drinks and were ready to leave the bar, I had decided that I would want to see you again.

And then you ruined everything with your insensitive, rude, and condescending conduct, to say nothing about groping me in the car (that was done in particularly bad taste).

Unfortunately, the negative qualities that you revealed after we left the bar override the initial positive impression I had of you, and hence I would not want to have any further contact with you.

I hope you now realize that what you did was supremely dumb - you blew your chance of dating a {list your positive attributes}, and charming petite woman. I hope you will spend some time reflecting on this fiasco of yours and wish you luck in your future endeavors.

Regards,
YOUR NAME"

[sabby]

I have to say, I disagree with h-b's idea that you should email this man. It's over and done with and that's how it should stay.

I'm sure, if he's got an ounce of a brain, he's figured out what he did wrong. If he didn't well that's his issue now isn't it? Emailing this guy about your thoughts of what he did wrong probably would have no affect on his behavior.

Why would anyone want to contact a person after having been groped and disrespected just to tell him what he did wrong? It doesn't make sense to me. She has no idea how this man could react to an email like this. Seems to me she already made that clear when they talked about it face to face.

Sounds to me like Maria116 has handled it in the best way possible and I think she should move onward and upward!

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Maria116

I said "it was unnecessary."

How is that "making it clear ... that he did wrong"? "Unnecessary" is not "wrong". Unnecessary means just that - not required. Not mandatory. Optional.

"Sir, you were not required to grope me". "Really? Oh, sweet maiden, I did not realize that I was not required to grope you..." "No, sir, you were not". "Oh, then I am so sorry".

@Sabby The man had an ounce of a brain - he sure did. And a pound of chutzpah, too. Maria said "no". He persevered. She did not leave the scene. So he proceeded. He is smart in the "street savvy" sense and not in the "rocket scientist" sense. A person would pursue his goals if he sees no obstacles on his path. It is that simple.

In terms of how this man would react to an email with a sarcastic tell off - why bother learning it? You send a tell off and put his email in your email's blacklist. Which is where he belongs - such men are the equivalent of spam if not worse than that. Trash/spam. But at least there is a hope that he would behave better next time around, whereas after receiving "it was unnecessary" he will simply move on on the next, similarly naive, target.

TBH, I was surprised to read your account, Maria, because in this account you are like a sweet "girl next door" from the middle of American nowhere and not an urbane independent gal from the Big Apple. In California, we are usually told that we are spoiled rotten by courteous fellow drivers who yield to one another as well as by the pedestrians who actually cross the streets at appropriate places (!!!) and thus would never be able to navigate the streets of Manhattan, what with fearless cabbies and ubiquitous jaywalking. I had no idea that there are such naive sweet tender souls in NYC. But then I have not watched sex and the city - maybe it was covered in that series.

@Maria, I think that "onward and upward" is very possible for you, but, after extracting useful lessons from what happened. Having another incident of groping followed by tepid apologies is not what any friend would want for you. If you find yourself in a situation where you yourself cannot behave assertively, quickly imagine that you had a best friend by your side, gutsy and protective. What would you do in the presence of such a supportive friend? That is exactly what you need to do. If you do not have a good friend, imagine a fairy godmother by your side. I bet that had you imagined a fairy godmother by your side when you could not make the guy understand that "no" meant "no", "ciao" would have been the last word he would ever have heard from you.

I am not sure how we even got to here from the book discussion (I have not read the book), but it is alarming that women keep saying "no", as if on a mission to educate men, rather than safely and promptly leave the scene.

If I were a teacher and had a student, who, after reading a paragraph several times, would not be able to answer even general (to say nothing about detailed) questions on the paragraph, I might read the paragraph out loud to him, to test whether he is an auditory learner rather than a visual learner, and try other tricks, and might eventually escalate the issue to the principal of the school or the learning disability specialist so that they would handle it. I would not keep telling the student to read the paragraph he is not getting over and over again because it is futile. The scenario in which W keeps telling "no, no" to M but does not leave the scene is not very different; the only difference is that a student is unable to comprehend the meaning due to a learning deficit while M is simply being rude, inconsiderate, after instant gratification, and perhaps even enjoying getting the upper hand (ok, now I see how this incident got woven into the thread about dominance).

A tell off email with immediate blocking of all M's contact addresses and numbers electronically is that way of saying "No, I have the upper hand. You might be taller, and you might be stronger, and I am petite and fragile, but I am still telling you that you are a pathetic loser". Hopefully this would make you feel better because the last word would be yours.

Some email clients allow a canned response to specified email addresses. If that is possible, the email client would be bouncing M's emails back with "you blew it spectacularly and your messages will automatically bounce back to you without my reading them"l. Not all email client have that functionality, though.

I hope the difference between "it was unnecessary" and "you blew it spectacularly" is crystal clear.

handing it over to people who have read the book to bring everybody back to the topic of the thread.

[BobbyDavis]

I just to add on to my previous post.

I am not sure what the laws are like in America but in Australia if you know the name of a rapist you can report it and they will name and shame him. Personally, I think if he is a serial rapist he will keep doing this to other women until someone reports him or stops him by force and reporting him is the best option you can take. Nobody deserves to be raped and you are the victim here Maria.