[hisgirl]

Hi,

I met a guy a few months back. We fell in head over heals in love. I had NO intention of falling
in love with him. I could clearly see from the first date that there was something not right with
him. But I saw this vulnerability in him, this HUGE need for love that just melted my heart away.
I felt compelled to give him ALL the love in my heart. My intention was to walk away after I'd
done this *one time/one night stand.* But he kept calling me back. I just couldn't stay away. He
opened up the most tender part of my heart... and there it was... all for him...

He’s been alone for most of his life. Living as a loner and a MAJOR miser. He said his last long
term relationship was 10 years ago and lasted 4 years. I don’t know that I believe he even had
THAT. I don’t know that his OCPD has allowed him to attract AND retain a woman or that HE,
himself has the social skills needed to develop a relationship. The latter, I can clearly see he
lacks so I doubt he’s had many opportunities. Then comes me... empathetic, tender-hearted
insightful sucker for the underdog I am...

Come to learn he's got ALL the classic symptoms of OCPD. I didn't see it at first. I knew there
was *something* not right, but it's not until recently that I've learned what *it* is. We've spent
the last few months playing the push me away-pull me back game. Actually, HE'S the one
who's played it, I just went along for the ride. As I said above we BOTH fell deeply in love. So
how is it that on SO many occasions this man tells me he wants *other things* after showing
me this HUGE love of his?

He’s getting to an age of reflection, the age where the clock begins to tick and you assess your
life and start to panic over all the things you have not accomplished. He’s never been married
and the thoughts in his head prior to meeting me were, “I want to get married and have a
child.” His *ideal* is to do this with a younger blond-blue eyed babe. He met me and I am NOT
his ideal. I'm a babe though! Just NOT the one he has envisioned. But love is love I think. I was more than willing throughout this relationship to let his
mental issues NOT have an impact on my decision to stay. I figured I love this man completely
unconditionally. I decided I was going to follow my heart. But every time I did, and every time
he reciprocated that love, he likewise withdrew it, stating he still wanted those *other things.”

My question is, does he really??? Or is this the *wall of defenses* he puts up as a means to
keep control over the situation (his feelings,) and me? Mind you, we’ve separated twice in the
few months we’ve been *together*. The first time lasted 10 days. I initiated the contact back. I
was simply confounded over HOW could he possibly mean what he said about just being
*friends?* We ARE in LOVE with each other!!! What??? We will NEVER *just* be friends.
What’s between us is TOO deep. He was SO glad to hear from me, relieved even. I could feel
it and hear it in his voice. We got back together and I could FEEL this intenseness of feelings
coming from him. He actually *shook* and took HUGE deep breaths because of these feelings.
He was in a panic the whole time. This was also the first time I was privy to what it was that his
*issue* was. He paced, washed his hands, prayed... over and over again... But still, I didn’t
know it was OCPD. I knew nothing of the difference between OCD & OCPD. I only fell more in
love with him after that, the empathic sucker I am. Give me a vulnerable man and I’m all over it.

He loves me bad. We saw each other a few more weekends. During this time the love was
reciprocal, albeit, with the good old *flat effect* on his part. But it was there in his own way, just
the same. Now I know it was a *flat effect*, before I thought I was getting *mixed messages.*
So, we got back together and it’s all good, then he pulls the old *I want other things...* again. I
mean we were in a social situation where his *ideal* flashed herself in our faces. He nearly fell
apart. I nearly wanted to vomit. What happened to this love between us??? This time I left for
a month. During this time he MUST have been through literal hell. When I saw him again he
looked as if he’d aged 10 years. He also was on an additional med for his *anxiety*. I KNOW
this man loves me! I KNOW how I feel about him. But I don’t know that this love is enough to
get us through. I don’t know if I can trust him. He’s certainly caught up in his rigidly held belief regarding the *ideal* he created in his mind. An ideal that most likely will NEVER come to be realized. He's got TOO many issues. Finding the RIGHT woman to accept him as he is probably a once in a lifetime event for him. Is
this love enough to break the barrier regarding the OCPD ideal?

My question is, can he really mean he wants other things when he feels this HUGE love for
me? Do I have anything to fear in that regard? Do people w/OCPD just walk away from their
feelings so easily? Whenever we’re together there is magic, pure magic. Deep and tender love... How can anyone walk away from THAT???

Love is blind. I mean he is SO not for me. I’m a responsible adult with children. He knows
nothing about children, he’s like a child himself. That just happens to be something I adore
about him. But in reality, this part of him just doesn’t fit into my *real life.* That of being a
mature, responsible, adult - mother. At first I had on my rose colored glasses and thought
my/our love could overcome any obstacle. But he’s SO socially defunct that I don’t if it’s really
possible. He’s a deep and complicated well of issues. This just feels SO tragic. I feel as if I
can’t live with him or without. But on an up note, I HAVE seen changes in him. I have seen him
let go of his money a bit. He even went so far as to obtain a credit card to establish credit.
Mind you, credit cards are (or were?) a MAJOR no-no in his rigid financial belief system. So I
do see some progress... so???

But I think to start the process of whether or not we stick it out and work it through, that I need
to know if this *ideal* is such that will preclude us from having a relationship. Will he always
want this *ideal* or will he follow his heart? Does he really mean it when he said or may say
again, let’s just be friends??? Oh, and yes, he is very aware of his issues. He has a therapist,
he knows he’s subject to black and white thinking. He knows he loves me, but he has these
*issues* to get past. Can he??? Do OCPD’s have the ability to do this??? What can I do to
help? Anything??? Does it stand a chance?

The thought of walking away from him and hurting him hurts me to no end. I know he experiences a tremendous amount of inner conflict over his feelings for me and over what his OCPD brain is telling him he wants.The thought of staying only to be hurt by having this *ideal* shoved in my face again and again does not fill me with hope either. The uncertainty of a relationship with an OCPD is VERY difficult. VERY.

Any thoughts would be highly appreciated.

hisgirl

[Zenobia]

I think that there is no chance for this relationship. Here are my reasons why.

1. "empathetic sucker that I am"
2. "I don't know that I believe he even had THAT."
3. "I knew there was *something* not right with him.
4. "He's the one who played it, I went along for the ride."
5. The whole paragraph where you say what you think he thinks on marriage.
6. "I was simply confounded by HOW he could mean what he says about just being friends."
7. "Give me a vulnerable man and I am all over it."
8. "I mean we were in a social situation where his *ideal* flashed herself in our faces. He nearly fell apart. I nearly wanted to vomit. What happened to this love between us??? This time I left for a month."
9. "I mean he is SO not for me."
10. "But he’s SO socially defunct that I don’t if it’s really possible."

I failed to see anything positive in this post about this guy. All I see are things that you don't like about him, problems that he has, and reasons why you shouldn't be with him. Then you point out on several occasions where you don't believe what he is telling you. Then you say he is aware of his problems and getting help but don't really believe in his ability to rise above his problems which indicates to me that you don't want to be in a relationship with this man if he doesn't change who he is to fit YOUR ideal. I am sorry I am being so harsh but I don't see any way around it. You don't seem to be the supportive person who accepts this man as he is and you don't seem willing to trust what he says. Nor do you seem willing to see that part that you play in this relationship. It is all placed on his shoulders and you are just along for the ride. This does not mean you are a bad person, this just means that this is a bad relationship for you to be in.
Sincerely,
Zen<font color=blue>

"Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers."--Tennyson

[mj14]

I think Zen's reply is very insightful and to the point, but I wanted to add my perspective. It seems that more important than determining whether this man can change is for you to figure out why you feel so drawn to a man with so many problems. You even admit being attracted to his vulnerability...why do you find this characteristic so attractive? The games you describe him playing...pulling you to him then pushing you away...are rather cruel. It would be very valuable for you to examine yourself to determine why you would remain attracted to a man who would do such cruel things to you. You may still find that you love this man, but you will at least understand your part in the relationship.

Now, about your question. I do not have OCPD, but I do have a different personality disorder, and my understanding from what I've read is that there is very little hope that most people with personality disorders will be "cured". We can learn to manage the disorder and try to minimize it's negative effect on our lives, but the disorder itself will always be there. From what you describe, this man's disorder is pretty severe. So, while he may improve (such as his getting a credit card), it is very unlikely that he will ever be completely free of the disorder.

Regardless of whether you decide to continue this relationship or not, you are always welcome to come here to talk about it. And even though my reply may not seem very positive, if you do decide to pursue things with this man, you will find lots of support here.

Good luck.
mj

[rmm5497]

I have to agree a little with Zen and mj both...it seems like maybe you need to examine why you are so attracted to vulnerability...maybe I'm wrong but it sounds like you may have low self esteem that your dealng with. That being said it sounds like you love each other very much and that is beautiful but it also sounds like you already resent his illness and how he is handling it and it seems to me that that can only worsen if he doesn't change to suit your "ideal" and then you both will be further hurt and emotionally damaged...not to mention the impact it may have on your children. Besides if you don't respect the way he is handling his illness then how can you really respect him completely or trust him? These things are very important for a long term relationship. It sounds like neither of you are ready to be "partners" in a relationship. This is not a bad thing in itself but it can be if you try to force it. If what you have together is real it will always be there and there is no hurry...you should probably both separate awhile and examine what it is you really want. I'm not saying that it will easy but it will be easier than doing it later when your children are also emotionally invested in the relationship. I'll qualify all of this though by saying that I am probably the last person in the world that should be giving relationship advice...

[hisgirl]

Thanks for the honesty Zen. I'm sorry if I pressed a hot button for you. I'm glad you wrote because I didn't think that maybe I was looking for an ideal in him as well... it's something for me to think about.

To all: Some good questions were asked here; 1. Why did I fall into a relationship with him to begin with? Was it because of low self-esteem? I have been examining these same questions myself. What I have come to find is that it was not a matter of low self-esteem. It has more to do with boundary issues. Growing up I had an abusive mother where boundaries and abuse were the norm. Personal boundaries meant nothing in my home. I did not learn how to qualify people in my life. I just took whatever came my way. It's just my boundaries that need to be examined at this point.
Another reason for ending up in this relationship IS because of the empathy I have for people who have issues as a result of traumatic childhoods. Because of my own traumatic experiences in childhood, I could sincerely relate to his pain. I've done a lot of personal work to get past and through my own childhood. I feel I've come out fairly emotionally and mentally healthy. I felt that with all I've learned about myself that I could help him. Call that codpendency. I know I have that issue to contend with. It's that and boundary issues I believe that landed me here. I also do believe that love can heal all wounds. Pretty naive of me, but it did work for me. I learned how to love myself. I wanted to give him everything I had and I did...

It was this vulnerable man I saw that I once saw in myself that I wanted to nurture and love. To let him know he wasn't alone and that someone cared. It was he who kept backing me off. Once I made the decision to just go with it, to follow my heart despite what I saw in him (and I did not mean to come off as he being beneath me or anything like that at ALL,) it was he, who time and time again backed me off.

But now, he IS coming around. He HAS made changes and IS trying to break free of those OCPD rigid chains that keep him locked in his very lonely prison.

I do understand the difficulties people with PD's face. My mother has a PD. I know how difficult a PD is in familial and interpersonal relationships. I just never had the experience of knowing one with OCPD. He's the sweetest guy on the face of the earth and I honestly love him with my whole heart. But his PD is very difficult to live with.

You're right. Trust is a major issue in this relationship. I don't know if I can trust him. Everytime I have trusted that he does love me, he pulls a "I want other things." on me. I'm just not sure given his particular PD that he really means it or if it's his black and white thinking regarding this particular matter or if it's a defense mechanism to ward off the *feelings* which drive him crazy with uncertainty. People with OCPD put up 4 huge walls to keep the feelings out... it doesn't matter how good they feel, they can't deal with them. It creates havoc in their structured and ordered world. But at the same time, he loves me so much that he's in complete conflict over what he feels for me and returning to his orderly, controlled environment. He has said that he thinks he can be happy with me. He has said that he needs me to carry him through... then he says no more... it goes back to the flat affect... no showing of being happy as he says... just all is a completely I could care less attitude, when inside he's DYING for these feelings to never go away... he wants to love me, but it creates a crisis for him. I don't know how to assure him of my love. I kept trying and trying and he just didn't trust it. He kept backing me off as a result of his own inner OCPD conflict.

You have to understand OCPD. These people do not like to feel anything. Feelings cause them GREAT anxiety. He needs ORDER in his life. Where feelings are concerned for him, it's completely unchartered territory. He has not had a relationship with a woman in many, many years. I loved him with ALL of my heart because I could see this man needed love desperately. I needed it too... Growing up with my abusive PD afflicted mother, I never had the love and could relate greatly to what I saw in him. Call it traumatic bonding or what have you... but bond, we did. Now I need balance... and so does he...

Whatever he's done to me, he may have done out of defenses, but I didn't know that at the time. If it's his black and white thinking, I don't know if it's something he can get past.

I am not playing games with him. I love him very much. I think time will tell if we can work through this. I really love this man. I wouldnt' hurt him for the world. It's been so up and down, but that love, for whatever reasons it came to be? It's there just the same.

I suppose taking our time is the right course to take. We've talked about that... and we have slowed things down quite a bit. It's been more comfortable. It's been very comfortable for a change and I suppose that's why I ask the question on whether he can or cannot get past his rigid *philosophy* of what it is he wants. I don't trust that the love he feels for me will win out over his rigidly held PD beliefs about what he *thinks* he wants.

Thanks for listening and replying. I appreciate your support and insight. I've got a lot of thinking to do in regards to this relationship. Do I risk this? I love him so much it hurts... I want him to know I would never hurt him... but I can't trust he won't hurt me in the end... because of his PD... It's not fair for either of us. It's just not fair...

hisgirl