[Rose76]

I have been doing pretty good at not being blue for quite a while now. The occasional tailspin is not lasting long. I look after my Sig. Other, who is in frail health with a worsening mobility impairment. Looking after him keeps me occupied.

A little while ago I was barely keeping myself from breaking down weeping. My boyfriend is elderly and has adult children. We live thousands of miles away from them. Usually, he gets a call on Christmas eve or Christmas day from them. He got no call from two of them yesterday or today. They all met together today at the home of one. He has three adult children. I thought that - surely - while they were all gathered, someone would call him and they'ld pass the phone around. That's what they've done for decades. No call.

I feel so bad for him. He's not one to brood. I don't know if he feels hurt. He's not one to ever speak critically of his kids. On facebook there have appeared pictures of his kids and grandkids all gathered together earlier this evening. They posted videos. But they didn't call to let him hear their voices.

What am I not understanding? Do people now consider posts on facebook to take the place of making a phone call? Am I out of step with current cultural norms? Is this not abnormal?

For all anyone knows . . . this may be their father's last Christmas. At best, he's unlikely to have more than a few left. And they don't pick up a phone to call him on Christmas day? What kind of people do that?

He's gone to bed now. I'll be extra nice to him tomorrow. He doesn't deserve his kids to be this cruel.

They've never done this before. I don't understand.

I don't know of anything I could have done to help better connect him with his kids. I show him the facebook posts.

[gayleggg]

That's tough. I don't know why his kids wouldn't call. It's sad to me. Maybe he should have called them.

Tough. I agree though, what stopped him from being the one who called? It goes both ways, right?

[Misssy2]

Rose....you are so kind and compassionate to be worrying about his kids calling.
I don't know any of the situation but do you think they may be scared about his demise and avoiding him?

justafriend...I don't know Rose's situation...your post struck me because I have called my 2 boys..no answer (until recently with my youngest)...and it just hurts...I've sent many texts too....only my youngest has responded. My oldest birthday is Jan 1- 31 years old...I can't even think about it...which is why Roses title caught my eye.

[here today]

I have 2 adult children. My daughter wouldn't communicate with me for 4 years. I sent emails from time to time, no reply. Eventually she did when I wrote to tell her that I was in the beginning stages of moving across the country near where my son lives and if there was anything in the house that she wanted to let me know.

When I was growing up people were very "thoughtful" and "considerate" but a lot was also swept under the rug. Now the norm seems to be "everybody has their own life to live".

I am very sad to hear about your boyfriend's situation with his children. But as part of the "new normal" would it be possible for him to reach out to one or all of them, just because HE wants to hear their voices? I definitely understand the hurt, and so I'm not talking about any long conversations. Just a "Happy New Year" maybe now that Christmas is over?

[Rose76]

He's not terminally ill. I don't know that his demise is imminent. They have never expressed anything to indicate that they are scared of his demise . . . . . though they have expressed concern over meeting the expense of burying him. (I'm working on helping him set up a pre-paid burial fund, so that final arrangements might not be a burden on them.)

He's in his 80s and has some dementia. I think he didn't call them because he didn't want to possibly intrude on their festivities. One of the 3 children did call before traveling to where they were all getting together. He said she said she would be calling him when she got there. The implication, I thought, was that they would be calling him him and pass the phone around and all say hello. That's what they've done for the past 25 years.

Well . . . his cell phone just rang and it's his son. I'm glad.

[MickeyCheeky]

They called? That's great!

Maybe they had troubles or were busy..

[Rose76]

They didn't have troubles. They were posting on fb what a great time they were all having. They even posted videos.

They could have made a video saying "Hi Dad."

It's true that they were busy . . . busy partying and having a good time. I'm glad they were having a great Christmas get together. When your father is 81, can only leave his apt in a wheel chair and is losing his memory . . . you take five minutes on Christmas to make a free cell phone call. That's what you do, if you're a normal, decent person . . . and you claim your father helped you have a pretty happy childhood.

On fb, his son posts how the president is a P.O.S. and an unwiped @$$. When you're that critical of others, you hold yourself to some kind of a standard . . . or you should.

When you plaster it all over facebook how you love our troops and how you want our veterans to never be forgotten . . . you keep in mind that your 81 year old father is a veteran, and you understand that he is the first veteran should be remembering. Otherwise, you are just talking the talk and not walking the walk.

Your anger at then won't accomplish anything except...well bitterness toward them.

I agree they didn't do the right thing, or the thing that you would have done in their place, but what's done is done. You can only be responsible for your own actions and not theirs.

Even if you chew them out about it, what would that do really? They'll just dislike you for it.

My advice is to let it go and do what you can to enjoy these days....

Hugs to you and have a relaxing Boxing Day...deep breaths....

[here today]

I'm so sorry his kids are being like that, overlooking and hurting someone you care about. Really tough stuff.

[Rose76]

I was angry at them. I'm getting over it, especially since his son did call him earlier. No, I would not feel it's my place to chew them out about anything. They're not my kids. It's really not my business.

They don't particularly like me, and I don't particularly like them. That's been true for years. But my responsibility is to be reasonably cordial and not aggravate the rift for my friend's sake. I've known since a long time ago what hard hearted, self-centered creatures they are. I thought I was beyond being surprised by behaviors that demonstrate that, but they took it to a new low yesterday. I guess there's a lesson to extract from that. When it comes to expectations, with some people you just can't drop that bar low enough. If you expect absolutely nothing, then you avoid disappointment. I'm long beyond being hurt for myself. I was just dismayed to see him hurt. And maybe he wasn't. I don't really know for sure. But I've seen him before express that he felt excluded by them. I've even thought that - well - maybe they have their reasons. But to do this at Christmas . . . . . yeah, there's a reason. That's just the kind of people that they are.

Realizing that, I surely do need to totally let go. Sometimes, I have vainly persisted in hoping for some degree of warm, fuzzy from individuals who just aren't that way inclined, at least not in the context that I am part of. I guess I thought there was some virtue in having some faith in people's better natures.

I see now that I may have been mis-investing my time, energy and effort with certain people. I've tended to make excuses for people. I've tended to think that - deep down - people's hearts are bigger than their occasional pettiness. After all, I've thought: isn't that the allowance I hope others make for me.

There may be truth in that, but you can take anything - even the worthiest principle - too far. Sometimes, what you see is what you get. A few years ago, I decided to stop feeling sorry for people in ways that were leading to me being drained by them. That decision improved the quality of my life. I think I'm on the threshold of a new awakening. It may be that I need to start having less romanticized notions about "the basic goodness of human nature."

There are people whose lives touch mine whose behaviors are going to be pretty coldly calculated to pursue only what they see as their self-interest. I don't need to be bitter toward them. I just need to see more clearly what they are about. I will avoid getting myself angry and upset, if I stop trying to convince myself that they are, or should be, what I want them to be. They have the right to self-determination.

I was on and off facebook a good chunk of yesterday, looking for posts to my friend's fb wall from his family . . . looking for heart-warming things to show him . . . . . kind of trying to help orchestrate him having a nice relationship with his kids. That was way too much effort for me to put in to what is really not my business. It's between them.

What should be my focus is what's between me and him. Way back in the distant past, long before even meeting me, my friend did experience a deterioration in his relationship with his kids. Who was at fault for what is really not my riddle to solve.

Originally Posted by Rose76

What should be my focus is what's between me and him. Way back in the distant past, long before even meeting me, my friend did experience a deterioration in his relationship with his kids. Who was at fault for what is really not my riddle to solve.

This is important to remember. There was a whole lifetime of relationship and history that you really aren't privy to and it isn't yours to fix or really to judge without really knowing the family dynamics history. They aren't completely estranged since they do communicate some which is a whole lot better than so many families. It may not be ideal, but perhaps it is as good as it will get for this family based on its history.

[Misssy2]

Oh, I thought you said he was "frail" I'm sorry, I interpreted that wrong. Life is short...their loss...and they will have to live with this longer than him regardless of what condition he is in.

[seesaw]

I have a different take on this. I don't call my brothers or father on holidays or birthdays because I have chosen not to have contact with them because they are so abusive and toxic. To the people in their lives, I must look like a jerk or something, because they weren't privy to what I experienced from these people in my life.

You don't know what kind of father he was to them. There may be a lot of water under the bridge that you aren't aware of. Obviously you have some regard for him because he's your BF, but people who may be good BFs or husbands aren't necessarily good fathers. My stepmother thinks my father is all that and a bag of chips, but she wasn't abused by him growing up and she didn't have to live in the violent household he created, as a child.

My point is, they have their own reasons for not contacting him when you think they should. It's okay to feel bad for him, but try not to judge the kids when you don't know what they've been through.

Seesaw

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by Misssy2

Oh, I thought you said he was "frail" I'm sorry, I interpreted that wrong. Life is short...their loss...and they will have to live with this longer than him regardless of what condition he is in.

Yes, he is frail. He was placed in a nursing home this past Spring. He is only able to be back living at home because I make that possible. Medicaid and the VA provide some home heath attendant help, but I do the bulk of his care and homemaking work.

He has a laundry list of diagnoses, including stroke, COPD, heart failure, dementia, partial paralysis (which is gradually, but steadily progressing.) I don't see him surviving more than a few more years at best . . . based on my experience as a nurse. (For his sake, I hope he will not out-survive having a decent quality of life. He just barely has that now.)

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by seesaw

I have a different take on this. I don't call my brothers or father on holidays or birthdays because I have chosen not to have contact with them because they are so abusive and toxic. To the people in their lives, I must look like a jerk or something, because they weren't privy to what I experienced from these people in my life.

You don't know what kind of father he was to them. There may be a lot of water under the bridge that you aren't aware of. Obviously you have some regard for him because he's your BF, but people who may be good BFs or husbands aren't necessarily good fathers. My stepmother thinks my father is all that and a bag of chips, but she wasn't abused by him growing up and she didn't have to live in the violent household he created, as a child.

My point is, they have their own reasons for not contacting him when you think they should. It's okay to feel bad for him, but try not to judge the kids when you don't know what they've been through.

Seesaw

After 32 years, I know a thing or two about them, based on how they treat me. They are not particularly generous or kind. Their mother once said she was sorry for how they treated me - cool and distant. She told me he was a warm and attentive father. He has no history of domestic violence. If anything, I think his kids were a bit spoilt.

I don't know everything. But I know they are self-centered types who tend to calculate what they are going to get out of any move they make. I've needed to make some assessment of what they are about so I know what to expect in how they will relate to me.

I do know that they and I have very different values. They're entitled to have their own values. Their father is no prize - on a number of fronts. After his divorce, he became financially irresponsible . . . even ending up unemployed and homeless. This clearly earned him their contempt. And years ago they told me they did not want to ever be stuck having to take care of him in any significant way. Well, they're not! He is no burden on them. They say they love him and are so glad he is doing well as he is with the support he gets out here 2000 miles away from them. It's a set up that taxes/strains them not at all. A phone call on Christmas would be appropriate.

Yesterday morning, I heard my bf say to his son, "Oh, that's alright." So I rather think the son was kind of apologizing for something.

Four years ago, this son called and told his dad, "Don't come to visit me. It's too tough on you, with your declining health. I'll come visit you instead." He hasn't done that. Morally mature adults don't tell a sick old man, "I'll be out to see you in a few months" . . . and then let years go by without following through. He never complains about that, as he never wants his kids to go to any trouble for him. I guess, if you instill that in your kids - that's what you get.

Different values were instilled in me in my family of origin. Different families have differing values. That's life. I get that.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by Rose76

After 32 years, I know a thing or two about them, based on how they treat me. They are not particularly generous or kind. Their mother once said she was sorry for how they treated me - cool and distant. She told me he was a warm and attentive father. He has no history of domestic violence. If anything, I think his kids were a bit spoilt.

I don't know everything. But I know they are self-centered types who tend to calculate what they are going to get out of any move they make. I've needed to make some assessment of what they are about so I know what to expect in how they will relate to me.

I do know that they and I have very different values. They're entitled to have their own values. Their father is no prize - on a number of fronts. After his divorce, he became financially irresponsible . . . even ending up unemployed and homeless. This clearly earned him their contempt. And years ago they told me they did not want to ever be stuck having to take care of him in any significant way. Well, they're not! He is no burden on them. They say they love him and are so glad he is doing well as he is with the support he gets out here 2000 miles away from them. It's a set up that taxes/strains them not at all. A phone call on Christmas would be appropriate.

Yesterday morning, I heard my bf say to his son, "Oh, that's alright." So I rather think the son was kind of apologizing for something.

Four years ago, this son called and told his dad, "Don't come to visit me. It's too tough on you, with your declining health. I'll come visit you instead." He hasn't done that. Morally mature adults don't tell a sick old man, "I'll be out to see you in a few months" . . . and then let years go by without following through. He never complains about that, as he never wants his kids to go to any trouble for him. I guess, if you instill that in your kids - that's what you get.

Different values were instilled in me in my family of origin. Different families have differing values. That's life. I get that.

My stepmother would say the same thing about my father, that he was warm and attentive, but that's anything but the case. My point is just that you can't know the whole story of their childhood or the dynamic of their relationship with their father.

That said, I'm probably just reading into this because it triggers me a bit thinking about the situation with my family. You probably do have a good handle on the dynamic and are fairly accurate. Still, I would let it go. Do what you can to make his holiday nice. In the end, you can't expect anything of others, only plan what you yourself will do. The aggravation and infuriation are just a waste of your energy. Yeah, their behavior sucks but there is nothing you can do about it, so try to brush it off best you can and remember that what goes around comes around.

Seesaw

[divine1966]

Maybe he abused his wife and maybe that's why she left. Maybe kids observed him treating her bad. You said he didn't always treat you well so I bet he didn't treat his wife well either. Or maybe he treated them bad. Maybe his substance abuse was too much for them to handle. Maybe they see therapists and were advised to keep communication to a minimum.

My dad isn't bad but he can be difficult (he hasn't been past two years as my mom battling cancer), but when he was difficult my t advised me to keep communication to a minimum to protect my own sanity.

My mom also says that dad was always great (warm and attentive father.). That's baloney. Neither me nor my brother think that. My dad is ok now but he was NOT warm and attentive when we were growing up. He was not emotionally available etc and was very tough to deal with. Not what mom saw. So I wouldn't go by what their mom thinks.

And he probably never complains because he feels guilty

It's still sad and difficult for you. But try to take thoughts of it as like others said you don't know everything. You love him and it isn't always provide objectivity. Stop worrying about them. Hang in there

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by seesaw

My stepmother would say the same thing about my father, that he was warm and attentive, but that's anything but the case. My point is just that you can't know the whole story of their childhood or the dynamic of their relationship with their father.

That said, I'm probably just reading into this because it triggers me a bit thinking about the situation with my family. You probably do have a good handle on the dynamic and are fairly accurate. Still, I would let it go. Do what you can to make his holiday nice. In the end, you can't expect anything of others, only plan what you yourself will do. The aggravation and infuriation are just a waste of your energy. Yeah, their behavior sucks but there is nothing you can do about it, so try to brush it off best you can and remember that what goes around comes around.

Seesaw

Your stepmother would have no right to say anything about how your father treated you growing up. She wasn't there.

All I know about my boyfriend's past family life is what his kids and ex-wife have told me. I can't know anything more, since I wasn't there. They are the ones who have told me that things were pretty nice. Now . . . obviously . . . his wife couldn't have been totally satisfied . . . . since she divorced him.

Divorces happen for lots of reasons. I don't pretend to know why the marriage didn't work. The kids (adults now) have straight out told me that they thought their father was a jerk for quitting his job, after their mother divorced him. Two of them were adults when that happened. His wife left him for another man. When that happened, he fell apart emotionally and drank too much. His kids say he should have just moved on with his life.

He ended up homeless, and it seems that kind of disgusted his children. They've told me he didn't need to fall apart like that. It caused them some worry (on cold winter nights) and they, very obviously, resented being worried by him sinking so low. In the normal order of things, parents are supposed to worry about their offspring. I guess it can be discombobulating for that to get reversed. I was never really in that position. My parents had a successful marriage and provided just fine for themselves.

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by divine1966

Maybe he abused his wife and maybe that's why she left. Maybe kids observed him treating her bad. You said he didn't always treat you well so I bet he didn't treat his wife well either. Or maybe he treated them bad. Maybe his substance abuse was too much for them to handle. Maybe they see therapists and were advised to keep communication to a minimum.

My dad isn't bad but he can be difficult (he hasn't been past two years as my mom battling cancer), but when he was difficult my t advised me to keep communication to a minimum to protect my own sanity.

My mom also says that dad was always great (warm and attentive father.). That's baloney. Neither me nor my brother think that. My dad is ok now but he was NOT warm and attentive when we were growing up. He was not emotionally available etc and was very tough to deal with. Not what mom saw. So I wouldn't go by what their mom thinks.

And he probably never complains because he feels guilty

It's still sad and difficult for you. But try to take thoughts of it as like others said you don't know everything. You love him and it isn't always provide objectivity. Stop worrying about them. Hang in there

The substance abuse was a big issue. He was a pain in the @$$ when he was drunk - not violent, but annoying - even exasperating - to have around. The worst of that was after his divorce. He's been sober for 20 years. One of his kids told me that she thought her mother did not always treat him very well.

For those of you who were abused by your fathers, I am very sorry. It's an awful thing to have to recover from. That's not what this family's dynamics were about - according to what they have shared with me.

They got pissed off that their dad ended up broke for a long time. (According to what they have told me.) His eldest told me that she felt her dad - in his drinking days - needed a babysitter.

Yes, he does feel guilty. He has always felt guilty that he ever gave them any cause for worry. Even now, when he gets seriously sick, he tells me, "Don't go calling my kids. I don't want to worry them."

He's sober 20 years now. There's nothing much his kids have to worry about . . . for a long time now. They really aren't the type to dwell in the past. There are current consequences to how he lived in the past. All he has is his Social Security. And he does fine on that. If he had banked money all his life and was financially nicely situated in his golden years, relations with his kids would be different. I suppose it's understandable for that to be so.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Rose76

The substance abuse was a big issue. He was a pain in the @$$ when he was drunk - not violent, but annoying - even exasperating - to have around. The worst of that was after his divorce. He's been sober for 20 years. One of his kids told me that she thought her mother did not always treat him very well.

For those of you who were abused by your fathers, I am very sorry. It's an awful thing to have to recover from. That's not what this family's dynamics were about - according to what they have shared with me.

They got pissed off that their dad ended up broke for a long time. (According to what they have told me.) His eldest told me that she felt her dad - in his drinking days - needed a babysitter.

Yes, he does feel guilty. He has always felt guilty that he ever gave them any cause for worry. Even now, when he gets seriously sick, he tells me, "Don't go calling my kids. I don't want to worry them."

He's sober 20 years now. There's nothing much his kids have to worry about . . . for a long time now. They really aren't the type to dwell in the past. There are current consequences to how he lived in the past. All he has is his Social Security. And he does fine on that. If he had banked money all his life and was financially nicely situated in his golden years, relations with his kids would be different. I suppose it's understandable for that to be so.

I wasn't really abused. But my father is a difficult person. On the surface my family is great with wonderful values and achievements . And we are great in many ways. But if you dig deeper there are some elements of dysfunction.

Same in most families. So I think on the surface maybe your guy is the father of the year, but deep down perhaps not. If he has more than one child and all of them limit their interaction with him, then why not ask yourself could it be him, not them? Also if he was outstanding father how come they are so intolerant and so nasty etc? All of them? Yet he raised them right?

You can't really assume that relationships with his kids would be diffirrnt if he had money. how could you know?

[Rose76]

No one who was a drunk would be a likely candidate for "father of the year." It doesn't take any deep digging to suspect that he probably wasn't an outstanding parent. All I know about their lives before I met them is what they've told me. They claim to have had happy childhoods. They are living what seem to be very successful lives.

I was saddened that they didn't call their father on Christmas. However, they will do what they will do. I'll never tell them what to do. It's not my place. I didn't raise them. How they are doesn't reflect on me. I suppose it does reflect on their father, since he was part of the parental team that did raise them.

I probably made myself needlessly unhappy feeling so sorry for this man. It's entirely possible that how they treat him is precisely what he has merited.

I've never thought of Christmas as a time when you
sit down and calculate exactly what people have earned and make very sure you don't expend a smidgen more of your time and effort giving anyone one tiny bit more than they have coming to them, based on your careful calculations. Not how I was raised. But different families have different values. That's life. I shouldn't let it upset me. But then I wouldn't be me. I think I'll stick to being me . . . just a bit less upset.