Stuck

I’m focused on improving and stabilizing a difficult situation. My focus has been on my children, and earning more money. My son has been out of the house a couple years. My attention has been focused on my responsibilities, especially my daughter. I’ve been giving my husband space to heal and rebuild. I haven’t put much into the relationship for several months. More like a few years. Before that, I did put a lot of energy into my marriage. Me and my kids went on living, without him joining in, even though he was present. I tried to draw him into some family events when he was willing. I tried doing family counseling with him. He had a major relapse over the new year, which i did not think he would survive. I’ve since urged him to be more honest with his psychiatrist about how he is doing because he acts like and reports he is doing great, but he is in denial. I’ve now told him a handful of times that we will need to live apart because there must be a healthy environment. He’s slow to get the message, but I need to keep on it until he gets more help, or I follow through. Even after he gets more help, I could still follow through. I’ve had so many competing thoughts and feelings about him. I did feel it was wrong to kick someone out after they were inpatient, well he told me it was wrong and I felt bad. My daughter now says she’d be okay living with him if he gets his stuff together. She doubts he will though.

Thank you. I am trying my best to improve and break the cycle etc. My imagination kept me trying with my husband. I gave up on it a few years back and just switched to thinking of him as a family member that I love and care about, who is very sick. I realized a few years ago or so that he is missing something—how it feels to care about someone properly. Since my dad perished at a young age, I think I’ve been focused on prevent the same with husband.
I get such an eerie feeling of history repeating itself. My dad told me his life was in my hands and that was too much for me as a teen, and it scarred me. I’m glad my dad has not been in my life the last 20+ years because it would have been very difficult to keep him at bay if he were here. He wouldn’t at all be a safe person to be around and I could never have him around my kids.

Thank you. This is true. They are 14 and 20.

I think you are expecting your children to put up with the same kind of father you did. Can you see that?

It’s not something you did on purpose. Yet you could not save your father and you can’t save your husband either. And, they both chose to put that burden on your shoulders. That’s not fair to you and it’s not fair to your children either.

You never had an actually healthy adult partner, instead you have basically been the only parent and your husband is just your third child. Your husband still doesn’t want to grow up. Instead your husband wants to smoke pot and get high and live in an illusion.

What is concerning is that whenever you call him out he puts you down instead of taking on some real responsibility.

Has your husband ever been diagnosed as Bipolar? Sometimes very creative people suffer from Bipolar disorder and have these breakdowns. They have to be medicated and learn how to manage it.

I can see that they’ve had similar experiences. Nothing done on purpose since I love my children most and want the best for them. They’re great people, and suffer with anxiety and depression. Perhaps they couldn’t have escaped that due to genetics. My children are very intelligent, talented, and thoughtful and I want them to develop fulfilling lives that they enjoy.

I believe you. Your children are probably sensitive and caring like you are. Often anxiety develops from uncertainty about ones environment. It is hard on them witnessing their father’s instability.

He was given that diagnosis by some professionals, but not others, so I don’t know where it stands. My husband doesn’t have the highs and lows like I know bipolar to have (although I understand there are different types). He had very low levels of lithium i believe when they did a blood test on him after the recent inpatient. He reached out to his counselor yesterday about the idea of borderline and was told to set up an appt about it.

He sat down with daughter and I while we were chatting about this and that, and said he thinks he could have borderline and he’d been looking at how that effects his family. He was looking at us like he had more to say or was saying something to us with the comment about family. I asked if he was apologizing for that behavior, and he got offended it seemed. “Uh no. That hadn’t been my train of thought at all.” I said oh you mentioned family and we’re the people you live with, so it seemed that’s what you were getting at. He sat there for a bit and said, “well I am sorry.” Then wandered away talking about something else to feel sorry for him about.

I think he thinks if he ever apologizes for anything then someone might think he’s wrong, bad, and leave him, fire him. He seems to believe that being right and/or in control makes him safe. It’s all about him feeling safe and he has a very difficult time seeing others perspectives. He seems almost incapable of seeing others perspectives and I wonder if that is something he could develop through treatment.

Often the unwillingness of taking responsibility comes from fearing he will lose his illusions which give him a sense of power. From what you share it sounds like he has some narcissistic traits. If he has expressed a desire to see a professional then he should see one.

Bipolar affects people differently. Some experience more mania than manic depressive. Many try to self medicate using alcohol or other drugs.

He’s out of weed today. Very testy in tone. I wonder if this is what he was like at work sober.

He’s sober 1 day. He talked to me a bit about getting fired last week. He talked about not being willing to play the bosses game. He thinks if 10 people see it one way, and him another, he just doesn’t buy into the ideas that others have and no one will convince him otherwise he says. He puts no value in titles and he wants to level the playing field. He made no sense at all. He said he needs a comfortable work environment for himself, and the boss was just worried about everyone else being cold. He had additional commentary, quite shocking ways of thinking.
He made a couple appts with docs, three weeks from now. That’s so far away!
He got angry with me this evening, he wouldn’t move on, grasping at nothing, told me to shut up twice, eff you, said I have a terrible attitude, and so on. I had told him talking like that is not working for me, this isn’t working and he will have to stay somewhere else, or I will because I will not allow aggressiveness and it doesn’t feel safe. He said this is not a dangerous environment and he’s never hurt me. I said it does not feel safe it feels volatile. I said he is picking a fight and taking his stuff out on me. He said people who pick fights don’t leave the room, and walked out to the carport. He watched tv out there and i went on a walk with my daughter (she hadn’t heard any of that). After we got back, he was saying goodnight for bed, and kisses me on the head, all smiles, says he loves me and I can’t say anything back. He walks way and stops again saying he loves me, staring, expecting me to say it back. That’s his thing—acts horrible and them acts like nothing happened, bugs me until I say what he wants (love you).

His behavior is horrid so i can’t stand being around him.

I know this pattern all to well, I get it. He needs to feel he won and he can’t converse unless the conversation goes in the direction he wants. His change from being argumentative to loving is showing you just how inconsiderate of your views and opinions he can be. This is behavior that is engaged by a child, not an adult. He is pushing your buttons to mother him.

He is not a parent, everyone walks on eggshells around him, including you. He probably creates this dynamic in work environments too. That’s why he ends up getting fired.

Actually the pattern you just witnessed where he could not converse with you on an adult level and blew up and walked away is what he does with drugs. He uses the drug as a means of escape. When a person turns to drugs/alcohol they stop maturing. So if they start at age 13, that is the maturity level they remain as long as they use drugs for an escape.

The family ends up suffering because of this up and down loop of behavior.

I had to learn how this had affected me in that I had been living my life according to this kind of behavior in both my father and my husband. What I experienced from my family dynamic growing up normalized the dysfunction that alcohol use created. This can be something passed down in families and ends up being repeated from one generation to the next.

This is a man without honor. He has a bad "character." Bad "character" is not a psychiatric disorder.

A lot of modern thinking tries to argue that everything that defines a person is part of their psychiatric make-up. You can ride that band wagon, if you like. I refuse. I reject the idea that, if a person is "bad," it's because they are "sick." That is a slur and a slander against the mentally ill.

True, the kind of environment and upbringing that engenders psychiatric problems may well be an environment that also doesn't imbue virtue. Not surprising. However, mental health and a virtuous character are not the same thing.

The ideas that a person embraces and believes matter. This man truly believes that he got screwed growing up and that his history of being poorly parented confers on him the right to try and even the score. So he shirks responsibility. He regards responsible persons with utter contempt. Rules don't apply to him. He is the Great Wounded One. The world owes him a living. He holds on to ideas that are evil to believe.

No therapy, nor any psychotropic drug, will make him a good man. He is a bad person . . . . even to the person who sees that all his needs are met. He utterly rejects notions of fair play and trying, in any way, to be a stand-up guy. He hasn't gotten into a lot of trouble with law enforcement because he pretty much gets what he needs at home.

I don't know how much of this he chose. I'm prepared to concede that how he is may be all he's capable of. Those judgements I leave to the Almighty. But he is a bad guy. He thinks it's okay to abuse others. He will die believing that. He must be over 40. His character is formed. He's not susceptible to being remolded into a good guy.

You've tried your hardest to help him. You are not morally obligated to go on indefinitely, propping him up and being his favorite target of abuse. That's all you will ever be to him. It is your option to let him stay within the shelter your home provides. You certainly can choose to do that, but it is not your moral obligation to continue this arrangement.

As far as "kicking him out," this man also has rights. That is currently his home as much as it is yours. I suppose his name is on the deed to the house, same as yours. You can't just issue edicts, telling him to go. You say you won't "tolerate" this, and you won't "tolerate" that. He acts as he darn well pleases, and not much you can do about it.

Separating your life from his involves a legal process. Start a notebook, recording his behavior and statements in summary, with date and time and names of witnesses. (Don't show it to him.) Document his use of weed. You will need this to build a case - for instance - as to why he should not have joint custody of your daughter . . . which it would be irresponsible of you to agree to.

Your description sounds much like his father, and him. They are sticklers for some rules, I guess because it gives them the chance to criticize and try to control others and feel better than others. Maybe a lot of people are that way to a degree, but they do it with aggressive type behavior.

One of his warning signs is wanting to get even.

The first thing he told me about himself was he doesn’t do things he doesn’t want to do. We weren’t dating then, he was rooming with my brother.

He does nice things for others. I guess he does nice things for reasons I’m not sure of.

I know he has a lot of triggers and it affects his behavior. And I think only someone “sick” in some way would think and react like he does. I think he is disconnected and operates by routine and impulse.

I understand the legal matters, I just want to communicate to him that it’s possible we separate. I guess I’m testing the waters. Does it help anything? Probably not. So I guess I should assert boundaries and leave that out.

I’ve thought so many times that he must not want to be with me based on his behavior, but that maybe he was too worried about hurting me to say it. Sometimes I have been sure that he wants a divorce but I guess he didn’t. I guess that was me projecting.

Part of your being stuck is your desire for him to be someone he can never be. You think if you can somehow reach him and convince him to care he will. His reply is consistently telling you he doesn’t care about your wants and needs or boundaries.

It’s a waste of time to tell him you are unhappy and even may leave him. It’s better that you focus on yourself and your effort to become personally independent.

I think I’ve been buying into who he “tells” me he is, and who he tells me I am. He tells me utter crap about who I am and what I do. I don’t know why I think things will change. I guess having someone hug me every day and say they love me, say they like my dinner (yesterday it was “too salty”), has been enough for me. Made it this far by walking on egg shells and staying away from him, which he doesn’t notice/care at all.

He keeps picking at me and I suspect it’s because he wants to get a reaction out of me so he can throw a fit, and buy weed. His logic and arguments are sad. I used to defend myself about the utter crap he would say about me! And I hear him outside giggling with my daughter right now, surely about the dog. It’s to where I can’t stand to hear him laughing because he’s such a jerk!

I am feeling more and more independent. I’m trying to stay in a head space where I am not manipulated by him. So much of my emotional energy goes to dealing with him.

I’m feeling waves of burning anger. I’m so frustrated and disgusted by my husbands comments towards me and his angry aggressive attitude, his arrogance, his whining, his selfishness, dominance, immaturity, addiction. off and on over the many years it’s been this way, but I always feeling guilty and confused, scared about my telling, feeling, thinking about it.

There’s been several times where I cried or was angry about how he was abusive to me. But he told me wasn’t abusive, so I guess I believed him. Because he didn’t hit me. He’s admitted to being verbally abusive before, and maybe tried to work on it, but those days are long gone. He just revels in his nastiness like he’s proud of himself. I’m worried.

I’m so furious about how he’s spoken to me today. His so manipulative and selfish it’s mind blowing. I’m on the edge. I’m extremely exhausted of this dynamic. It makes no sense to go on this way. I have the hardest time admitting I am miserable. I’ve been worrying he’ll look at my iPad and read my stuff.

I just keep wishing things will get better together, but it’s not. Just getting worse.

I’ve thought it’s impossible to be apart, but I’m starting to think it’s impossible to be together.

You have learned to dissociate years ago from what you experienced from your father. Once you actually learn about abusive behavior patterns and you begin really recognizing how he has emotionally manipulated you you will feel angry.

When you feel this anger getting strong it’s best to distance yourself until you calm down. It’s also important you don’t beat yourself up for not seeing all this before. Also, it’s a waste of time to call him out on his behavior, he will just deny it and insist you are crazy and need help.

Honestly, the best course is to work on yourself not only building up your independence through working but also finding other interests for yourself away from him. See if you can find Alcoa or Alanon meetings near you where you can be around others that understand what you are going through.

When someone has mental health challenges and chooses to self medicate as your husband is doing it creates a dysfunctional environment in the relationships, be it between husband and wife or with the children.

This doesn’t calm down or go away on its own. Your husband needs professional help, it’s not healthy for you and your children to have to constantly deal with his dysfunctional behaviors.

You are starting to think rationally. You are just slightly loosening your white knuckle grip on the phantasy you created in your mind about how you've been living in this home where there has been "lots of love" for 20 years. Remember how you put that in your first post of this thread. "Lots of love" you said. I'm sure you have poured your heart into making a loving home environment for your kids and for him. I'm sure you have lots of family memories of some nice times together. Probably you have photos of everyone smiling around the Christmas tree. Starling, every abusive rat who ever lived can be seen in some warm, fuzzy holiday photos wearing a big, wide smile. The worst monsters out there didn't spend every second of every day doing despicable things. They carved turkeys and handed out presents with bows on them and pushed kids on swings and told some funny stories and held doors open for old, ladies carrying bags. You say he "does nice things" for people. So did Hitler. Being nice when one feels like it is all part of the game. He has convinced himself that he's a pretty good guy. Those "nice things" are his proof. You are supposed to be so impressed by those "nice things." Don't be!

That stuff doesn't undo the abuse hurled at you day after day after day. And it's getting worse because he wants to see how far he can go and keep getting away with it. He's curious to see how much you'll take. What he says must be true, he thinks, because you keep taking it.

Does he need "professional help?" You bet he does! And he's gonna get it. Once you cut this guy loose, he will end up running afoul of society's rules in one way or another. You are what stands between him and the street. Once he can't take shelter under the canopy of your love and willingness to harbor him, he'll be like a stray dog out there rummaging around for what he can find. He'll intrude where he can. He won't be wanted long wherever he goes. He'll get desperate and angry. Everyone will be rubbing him the wrong way, like everyone on the job was mistreating him, according to him. A guy with that much anger and hate in him will eventually lash out at someone. He will come to the attention of local law enforcement. That's the "professional help" he needs . . . to have limits imposed on him. Limits will enrage him.

You are not in this world to have this guy wiping his feet on you every day, unless you believe that you are supposed to accept that. Well you made marriage vows "for better or worse." There is a limit to how much crap you have to tolerate from anyone, even the father of your children. He's pushed the limits over and over and over. He never paid a big price. He'll do it forever. You can't threaten him or punish him into better behavior. He has too much contempt for you. Metaphorically, he spits in your face . . . and laughs about it.

You don't have to accept this. He also has loads of options. But he's not one bit interested in any of the righteous ones. Give up trying to lure him into the right path. Getting his life right is his responsibility. This bullcrap with the painting is a charade. I knew a guy like that. He was going to make and sell leather goods, all with a Harley-Davidson theme. His friend owned a shop selling motorcycle goods. This guy was going to hang out with the "players" in town who rode cool bikes. He'ld sell them cool belts and saddle bags. He'ld be part of the biker culture. All a charade. He got dumped. He was driving business away from his friend's shop. Your husband is going to lose all his associates, if he has any left. Realize that he did this to himself.

Yes I’m losing my grip on the fantasy. He’s attempting to pay attention and “be there, ” be “interested” yesterday and today. But he’s so easily annoyed he can’t keep it up long without showing his contempt.

It’s ok to step back and see the reality and often one can even wonder why they did not notice these dysfunctional behaviors realizing how damaging they really are.

It really takes a qualified professional to get to the bottom of what you are experiencing in terms of your husbands mood swings and his not really being present in a functional way. Substance abuse often develops when someone starts self medicating as a form of escape from a mental illness of some kind. As I mentioned, often a person struggling with Bipolar disorder begins to self medicate in an attempt to escape from a depressive episode. It can also be a combination of both trauma and bipolar that someone starts self medicating with drugs or alcohol or both to escape from.

The problem with this is that it impedes growth and maturity and it also tends to be narcissistic where the person does whatever needed to maintain the habit. When it comes to bipolar for example, the mania may last longer and the depressive episodes may not be as severe, or one day can be up and down.

It really takes a true professional to slowly observe and diagnose and treat a person that struggles. If your husband is not getting professional help then he will just continue to self medicate and present with these dysfunctional behavior patterns and expect others around him to put up with him. As you know, it’s not healthy and not fair for you or your children to have to live with.

I do not think that you can negotiate healthy behaviors without professional help. Actually, you can make an already unstable situation even worse.

He’s been getting professional help, but it’s not enough. I think he needed to be inpatient much longer than he was, and would be in a better place now, maybe. I don’t want to make an unstable thing worse. I’m in way over my head. That’s why I’m stuck. I can’t stop worrying about how he’d be on his own, and the same time I keep trying to stand my ground so things aren’t too dysfunctional.

He got mad at me because I said he was lying, and he called me a waste of breath. He said I was insulting him so that’s why he said that me. I said it’s not insulting to say someone’s lying when they are. After that I did say that I guess I’m only of use to him if I support his delusions. Probably the meanest thing I’ve ever said. A bit later he walked by and I asked if he was too good to apologize for saying I’m a waste of breath, and he rolled his eyes and left. I could count his apologies on a few fingers and I’ve spent years apologizing for so many things, smoothing over. He can’t stand me any other way.

Been gone awhile now, no idea where. I was so close to feeling like that is definitely the end of us. I can’t negotiate, demand, beg, ask, suggest. He says he cannot do better and I need to understand that. But he can’t let me go either. If I stop being his rock I guess he’ll look for another. I don’t know.

I have felt so alone during all this, mostly because no one is there to help me. The mental health system has helped, but there’s no family support. I’m stranded stuck and in way over my head.

Once you start seeing the reality of how things are it can get overwhelming.

You are not going to have all the solutions right away. However you are still young enough to invest in yourself and work towards becoming independent.