[bcuz]

My son who is 25 was dx with sz when he 19. He has basically lived with me up until about 18 mos. ago. He would stay with his dad 4 nights per wk and at my house 3 nights per wk; sometimes longer. He started to become paranoid of me around xmas and decided he know longer wanted to stay at my house. I see him once every 2 wks to give him a shot of risperadol.
The problem with him staying with his dad continuously is that he doesn't get any kind of mental stimulation. His dad doesn't have any conversations with him. He eats only fast food and the only time he goes out is when his dad drives him to a bar and picks him up several hrs. later(grrrrr! that's a whole other issue).
Well, today I was speaking with my son on the phone and as usual trying to persuade him to come to my house for a few days. His brother is now home from college and living with me, I have plently of jobs arround the house he can help me with, and we always speak to one another.
Today he turned on me big time. He said very angrily"what have you ever done for me?"I was speechless. Then he said "I don't care if I ever see you again". My heart just sank. He has always been very sweet and caring towards me. I just told him ok and that I loved him and he hung up.
I have no idea how to handle this. I have no idea why he turned on me at this time(true, we argue about his drinking and I won't enable him by driving him to a bar, but that's nothing new).
Earlier this wk I wanted to try a gluten free diet with him and have him stay here for just a few wks to try the diet and that was an absolute "no way".
I know he has been paranoid of me the last 3 months but never hostile.
What can/should I do?

[disguise123]

hes probably getting this way because he resents he help your trying to provide,
I wouldnt change much of what you are doing.
Refusing to drive him to bars is the right thing to do.
But maybe stop offering to help him with his diet etc.
Stop asking him to come over for a month.
Find something he would enjoy and call him up and say hey im going to ...... And ask if he wants to come.
Talk to a counsellor for yourself or an organisation that helps the families of those with mental health problems.
Call him
Just to say you love him.
But not too often. Ask how his day has been and just listen.

Goodluck
Xxxx

[bcuz]

Thanks Rapidcycla,
Yeah you might be right......because his dad doesn't say anything to him and I'm at the other end of the spectrum and probably say/want too much. I guess I'll give us both a break.
-bcuz

[disguise123]

not a complete break though, just see if taking a tiny step back helps.
Your his mum you know far better than i what he needs.
Keep me posted hey, i hope things improve.

[costello]

Oh, bcuz, I'm so sorry.

My son has been this way toward me for years, so I know how painful it can be. He goes back and forth between hating me and loving me. It's almost a barometer of how well he's doing. When he's sinking down, he starts getting really paranoid about me.

I think you're wise to give yourself (and him) some space right now. Take really good care of yourself. Do the things you enjoy doing. Then you just have to play it by ear. Something will happen that will let you know it's time to move again.

For example, one time (April-May 2008) my son started pulling away, then we lost contact altogether. My sister called me to say my son was making odd calls to her. He called and asked if I was capable of murder, for example. Then he called and told her a chunk of his brain had broken off and slid down his spinal column. I called him for a few days, left messages that were never returned, then I went to his apartment one Saturday night with my mom. We found him holed up there, paranoid and suicidal. He was very hostile toward me (that's why my mom was there!), but I stayed and kept talking until I found a way to get him to the hospital.

I've had to live by my wits for years. We have this little dance where he gets close and then pulls away, and I have to sense when I can move and when I have to stay still. (That's why I agreed not to force meds/hospitalizations, btw. The paranoia it created in him was too much.)

I've just learned to use the away times to give myself a chance to rest.

[EmptyReflection]

bcuz,

I find that my own fits of paranoia and anger towards loved ones stems directly from conflict over something, usually heated conflict. Often, I will staunchly refuse to interact with whoever I perceived to be the cause for anywhere from days to months.

The best way I can think to explain it (and I'm glad to be lucid enough to do so at the moment...), is that it's another form of outward reaction to emotional expression. Some people become slightly resentful, but remain open to communication. Others cry, or yell.

...and then there's those of us who believe you work for a clandestine government agency which has the sole purpose of programming/studying/killing me.

Regardless of the way it is expressed, I feel it is just another form of expression, an attempt by our fractured thinking to put an explanation to what we see as a threat. Going only on how it affects me, I would speculate that he feels smothered, or feels that he is somehow not in control of his situation. Claiming that you are (in this case) "out to get him" is a vent of sorts, taken to an extreme of expression.

Unfortunately, I don't have a helpful answer to approaching him in this state. I know that when I get that way, I absolutely -have- to remove myself from the perceived cause, or I will go verbally ballistic. Most of the time, my wife just lets me rant until I cannot rant anymore, then offers her support in the form of indirect acknowledgement. I think she's figured out that if I -know- she's listening to whatever I'm rambling about, I feel better about it over time.

...she doesn't necessarily understand it, mind you. :P But knowing that I'm being heard is a comfort, and as long as she doesn't contradict what I'm saying at all (mainly she just nods and offers one-word responses throughout the ramble), I don't fly off the handle with even more extreme accusations. Then, over time, I settle enough mentally that I can discuss whatever is causing my distress with a modicum of civility and logical thinking. I won't lie - it's a very emotionally draining process for both of us, but when a resolution is reached, it's also very cathartic.

Hopefully this helps a little in understanding. You definitely know your son better than I do, but I can relate to his way of thinking - a lot of what you say he's said lately hits a little close to home with some things I've thought (and said) about those close to me over the years.

[bcuz]

Originally Posted by rapidcycla

not a complete break though, just see if taking a tiny step back helps.
Your his mum you know far better than i what he needs.
Keep me posted hey, i hope things improve.

Thanks rapidcycla.
His dad called today and asked "WHAT DID YOU DO TO (I'll call him Tom) TOM? He's so depressed and I think he's been crying." ( his dad blames me for everything).
Well after a long discussion I found out his brother who is 1 yr. older (and very successful in his profession)spoke with Tom and told him he shouldn't go on vacation with us and he's nothing but a "big burden to mom. and by agreeing to drink only if she does, that puts restrictions on mom and that's not fair to her".
Yeah, his brother is pretty much of a jerk to Tom, non supportive to say the least. Vacations are always a big source of stress to me. Tom will drink almost 24/7 with my brother-in-law who is a functioning alcoholic. Tom's uncle does'nt like to drink alone, so Tom's has always drank right along with him, I simply don't have any control in this situation. BUT, I Had it worked out with Tom for THIS years vacation.
What a mess, I could just ring my older son's neck. Tom's not answereing his phone at all This just made everything worse.

[bcuz]

Originally Posted by costello

Oh, bcuz, I'm so sorry.

My son has been this way toward me for years, so I know how painful it can be. He goes back and forth between hating me and loving me. It's almost a barometer of how well he's doing. When he's sinking down, he starts getting really paranoid about me.

I think you're wise to give yourself (and him) some space right now. Take really good care of yourself. Do the things you enjoy doing. Then you just have to play it by ear. Something will happen that will let you know it's time to move again.

For example, one time (April-May 2008) my son started pulling away, then we lost contact altogether. My sister called me to say my son was making odd calls to her. He called and asked if I was capable of murder, for example. Then he called and told her a chunk of his brain had broken off and slid down his spinal column. I called him for a few days, left messages that were never returned, then I went to his apartment one Saturday night with my mom. We found him holed up there, paranoid and suicidal. He was very hostile toward me (that's why my mom was there!), but I stayed and kept talking until I found a way to get him to the hospital.

I've had to live by my wits for years. We have this little dance where he gets close and then pulls away, and I have to sense when I can move and when I have to stay still. (That's why I agreed not to force meds/hospitalizations, btw. The paranoia it created in him was too much.)

I've just learned to use the away times to give myself a chance to rest.

Thanks Costello, it is painful to have your son hate you when you love him so much.
I had that same experience in spring of 2008. MY son ended up being an involuntary admission. That was a very dark time for both of us. His pdoc had him so drugged he was close to catonia. Someone had disclosed to me that he had been cleared for ECT and scheduled for Mon.(this was Sat.) His pdoc would not return my calls. I had a big note put on the front of the chart that I wanted to meet with the pdoc and discuss ECT. Well, we had that meeting with Tom sitting next to me along with other staff members. His pdoc told me he he was discharging Tom from his care because I was getting in the way of his treatment! (How?) by "questioning MY treatment plan"! We hadn't even discussed ECT or anything else. He was Tom's pdoc for 3 1/2 yrs! His pdoc then made him a voluntary admit and handed him off to some other dr we didn't know. Of course Tom left the hospital AMA. (a lot happened after that)
You're right, Tom's trust in me went down the toilet. That's why he is paranoid of me because he knows I know that he is having a slight relapse(nothing like the one in 08'). I continually reassure him he won't have to go to the hosp. Doesn't matter the damage has already been done.

[bcuz]

Originally Posted by EmptyReflection

bcuz,

I find that my own fits of paranoia and anger towards loved ones stems directly from conflict over something, usually heated conflict. Often, I will staunchly refuse to interact with whoever I perceived to be the cause for anywhere from days to months.

The best way I can think to explain it (and I'm glad to be lucid enough to do so at the moment...), is that it's another form of outward reaction to emotional expression. Some people become slightly resentful, but remain open to communication. Others cry, or yell.

...and then there's those of us who believe you work for a clandestine government agency which has the sole purpose of programming/studying/killing me.

Regardless of the way it is expressed, I feel it is just another form of expression, an attempt by our fractured thinking to put an explanation to what we see as a threat. Going only on how it affects me, I would speculate that he feels smothered, or feels that he is somehow not in control of his situation. Claiming that you are (in this case) "out to get him" is a vent of sorts, taken to an extreme of expression.

Unfortunately, I don't have a helpful answer to approaching him in this state. I know that when I get that way, I absolutely -have- to remove myself from the perceived cause, or I will go verbally ballistic. Most of the time, my wife just lets me rant until I cannot rant anymore, then offers her support in the form of indirect acknowledgement. I think she's figured out that if I -know- she's listening to whatever I'm rambling about, I feel better about it over time.

...she doesn't necessarily understand it, mind you. :P But knowing that I'm being heard is a comfort, and as long as she doesn't contradict what I'm saying at all (mainly she just nods and offers one-word responses throughout the ramble), I don't fly off the handle with even more extreme accusations. Then, over time, I settle enough mentally that I can discuss whatever is causing my distress with a modicum of civility and logical thinking. I won't lie - it's a very emotionally draining process for both of us, but when a resolution is reached, it's also very cathartic.

Hopefully this helps a little in understanding. You definitely know your son better than I do, but I can relate to his way of thinking - a lot of what you say he's said lately hits a little close to home with some things I've thought (and said) about those close to me over the years.

EmptyReflection,
Thanks for your insight. I agree with you. I believe his behavior is a form of "outward reaction to emotional expression". I have always been closest to him his whole life...I know he doesn't talk with his dad all that much, 'cause his dad tends to "blow up" or "blow him off". All three of my boys feel that way about their dad, but love him just the same. I guess if he has to hate someone, he knows I will probably handle it better than his dad. However, I was the one responsible for getting him involuntarily committed 3 yrs. ago. He and his dad continually remind me of this. Actually, that's probably the reason he's acting out towards me.

[EmptyReflection]

I can understand his anger at being committed, and I can also understand that you've been trying to do the right thing. In time, this sort of thing tends to pan out somewhat.

Best of luck to you.

[costello]

Originally Posted by bcuz

Well after a long discussion I found out his brother who is 1 yr. older (and very successful in his profession)spoke with Tom and told him he shouldn't go on vacation with us and he's nothing but a "big burden to mom. and by agreeing to drink only if she does, that puts restrictions on mom and that's not fair to her".

So "Tom" is feeling hurt. I don't think he hates you at all.

[bcuz]

Originally Posted by costello

So "Tom" is feeling hurt. I don't think he hates you at all.

No, this has been going on for about 3 months and gradually getting worse. I think his brother just reinforced what he was thinking.
(I try to make things clear, but the harder I try, it just makes what I'm attempting to convey more confusing).

[dillpickle1983]

I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles! I'm giving you a hug!

I can't understand, because I'm not a mother or father, however since my mother passed in 2005, My father and I are at odds over my mental illnesses.. I don't speak to him much anymore because of that. Anyways I feel for you! Hope this little kitty's face makes u feel better!

[dillpickle1983]

Originally Posted by costello

So "Tom" is feeling hurt. I don't think he hates you at all.

I would say he doesn't hate you either. When I'm really low and going at it, I say similar things, and I don't realize I'm saying it until I'm told later on... He doesn't hate you. He's just at odds on who to believe. I must say though, the older brother saying that to his younger brother, knowing the way he is, just blows my mind. Not something I'd ever do!

[disguise123]

Originally Posted by bcuz

Thanks rapidcycla.
His dad called today and asked "WHAT DID YOU DO TO (I'll call him Tom) TOM? He's so depressed and I think he's been crying." ( his dad blames me for everything).
Well after a long discussion I found out his brother who is 1 yr. older (and very successful in his profession)spoke with Tom and told him he shouldn't go on vacation with us and he's nothing but a "big burden to mom. and by agreeing to drink only if she does, that puts restrictions on mom and that's not fair to her".
Yeah, his brother is pretty much of a jerk to Tom, non supportive to say the least. Vacations are always a big source of stress to me. Tom will drink almost 24/7 with my brother-in-law who is a functioning alcoholic. Tom's uncle does'nt like to drink alone, so Tom's has always drank right along with him, I simply don't have any control in this situation. BUT, I Had it worked out with Tom for THIS years vacation.
What a mess, I could just ring my older son's neck. Tom's not answereing his phone at all This just made everything worse.

Oh im so sorry not helpful at all.
If he still wont answer later , send a email, fax or a letter.
Are you worried about how this depression will affect him?

[bcuz]

Originally Posted by chandlerT660

I would say he doesn't hate you either. When I'm really low and going at it, I say similar things, and I don't realize I'm saying it until I'm told later on... He doesn't hate you. He's just at odds on who to believe. I must say though, the older brother saying that to his younger brother, knowing the way he is, just blows my mind. Not something I'd ever do!

Thanks for the hugs Chandler. I agree, his older brother blows my mind too.

[bcuz]

Originally Posted by rapidcycla

Oh im so sorry not helpful at all.
If he still wont answer later , send a email, fax or a letter.
Are you worried about how this depression will affect him?

Rapidcycla,
Of course you are helpful, thanks. I actually spoke with my son late last night. He really didn't want to talk, just gave me very short yes/no answers and a lot of "whatever". He sounds very depressed. Yes, that worries me. I'm afraid he'll attemp suicide. His depression seems more ominous than in the past.
I also spoke with his older brother last night. Not helpful. He just makes me feel worse. He always plays the depression card on me "you can't help someone else until you get better yourself". Yeah, I'm depressed but he's totally wrong. He has the gift to talk circles around anyone. If he makes me feel bad, you can imagine how he makes his brother w/sz feel.

[bcuz]

[quote=chandlerT660;1778937] I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles! I'm giving you a hug!

I can't understand, because I'm not a mother or father, however since my mother passed in 2005, My father and I are at odds over my mental illnesses.. I don't speak to him much anymore because of that. Anyways I feel for you! Hope this little kitty's face makes u feel better!

[/quot
Thanks Chandler,
I def. can relate to the family stuff. It's terrible how mental illness can affect a family.

[disguise123]

Originally Posted by bcuz

Rapidcycla,
Of course you are helpful, thanks. I actually spoke with my son late last night. He really didn't want to talk, just gave me very short yes/no answers and a lot of "whatever". He sounds very depressed. Yes, that worries me. I'm afraid he'll attemp suicide. His depression seems more ominous than in the past.
I also spoke with his older brother last night. Not helpful. He just makes me feel worse. He always plays the depression card on me "you can't help someone else until you get better yourself". Yeah, I'm depressed but he's totally wrong. He has the gift to talk circles around anyone. If he makes me feel bad, you can imagine how he makes his brother w/sz feel.

Hmmm i dont know what you do. You cant ban him from speaking to his brother.
But if hes making things worse......

Keep calling your son, give him plenty of time to talk, and just listen to him. I wouldnt suggest anything to him at this point.
I know its hard for you to prop him up when u are so depressed. But i usually find that helping people i care about gives me a sense of purpose and i forget my troubles while im busy with them.
Try do something with your son he enjoys.
Is there anyone he likes spending time with, who cares about his welfare? You could ask them to get in touch with him?
Bake him something he likes maybe, he will feel special but under no pressure?
Keep posting
Xxx

[bcuz]

Rapidcycla,
That's a good idea I'll bake him something...just hope he doesm't think it's poisen. The thing about him and his brother is he looks up to and really respects him. So when his brother says mean things to him, he really takes it to heart. I'll call him tomorrow. He plays WOW alot and his dad thinks that's good enough social interaction, I don't think so. What do you think?

[costello]

Originally Posted by bcuz

That's a good idea I'll bake him something...just hope he doesm't think it's poisen.

In the same situation my son would definitely believe the food was poisoned or contaminated in some way.

[EmptyReflection]

Originally Posted by bcuz

He plays WOW alot and his dad thinks that's good enough social interaction, I don't think so. What do you think?

Purely online interaction isn't always enough, and WoW is full of people who are...I will simply say "less than courteous". The scary part about that is, most of them are grown people with kids of their own. There's no excuse for that kind of childishness.

On the other hand, online interaction accounts for over half of my communication with anyone. If I were single, it would account for all of it.

[bcuz]

Originally Posted by EmptyReflection

Purely online interaction isn't always enough, and WoW is full of people who are...I will simply say "less than courteous". The scary part about that is, most of them are grown people with kids of their own. There's no excuse for that kind of childishness.

On the other hand, online interaction accounts for over half of my communication with anyone. If I were single, it would account for all of it.

Thanks EmptyReflection.
I hadn't really thought about the types of people on WoW. It doesn't sound very healthy to me. I think the online interaction here can be very healthy. A short while ago I sent him a link to this forum. I explained to him that there were plently of people I'm sure he could relate to. He is just emphatically against getting any kind of support/help.

Funny, his dad tells me how good this game is for my son, "it involves strategy, concentration, and social interaction". (No his dad doesn't play computer games). His dad just doesn't want to rock the boat in any way, he never says anything to our son, grrrrr!

[costello]

I only know two people who play WoW (that I'm aware of), but they're two of the nicest people I know. It isn't enough social interaction, though.

[disguise123]

no its not enough social interaction.
Well if your thinking he may think the food is poison, hmmm, maybe buy/ make him a disk of music he likes, make him a scrapbook full of photos he would like?
I only say these things as a gentle way of showing you care.
Have you explained to your older son how much his brother looks up to him and how you would appreciate his help?
I hope things are going okay
Xxxxx