What's the point?

Thanks Alexandra. That was nice of you. Thanks also to those who PMed.

Algorithm - that's kind of how we use the community guidelines. It's our checkpoint:

Does the post violate a guideline?
If no, then leave it alone or try to offer a suggestion
for smoothing over a conflict
If yes, then how often does the member violate the guideline?
If it is a one-time occurrence, then let it go or
offer a suggestion
If the member continually pushes the issue, then
remove the post or send the member a PM

The problem is that so much of the complaints and "problem" posts are subjective. What offends one person does not necessarily offend others. Not much offends me (external to this thread - lol), which is why I have to rely upon input from the other mods and members to know whether something is grossly offensive or just rubs someone the wrong way.

Of course I'm reading this thread -- not out of obligation to the job, but because it bothers me to see the other moderators get bashed. They are all trying their absolute best. I want to defend that. Plus, if there are any POSITIVE suggestions for improving our process, I want to be able to glean that from this thread at all (although I keep inviting members to PM me with suggestions for improvement but I rarely receive any).

Constructive criticism is welcome. Rude criticism is not.

drclay, I'm sure you enjoy being creative as well, but I wanted a thread titled as I titled it, if you would like to start a new thread with a different title feel free. Perhaps one about keeping in touch with old friends as well, or maybe revolutions and revolts within the pychiatric and client community or how to fix a flat. (which by the way on suvs is best done by dosing entire vehicle and setting alight after fastening your seatbelt.)(use these instructions at own risk) I'd like to see a thread about how the newish concept of Memes are effecting the whole world, including the social services field. I get the feeling one can praddle away with any kind of nonsense here as long as it is positive and no one can say boo, total blather and zero scientific accountability, except of course, unless the mob complains enough to get to impose it's rule.

I still haven't gotten to reading most of the posts on this thread, yet, but prefer the title I gave it.
~Down

<font color="blue">DrClay didn't realize how important it is to us to keep our own subject lines in a thread. Forgive him, he's new I saw that he changed it immediately, but since DocJohn continued it, and it wasn't a real hijack, imo, I continued it...and I apologize for that Down. I knew better.

I personally notice some poc shots in this thread, and I don't appreciate them. I won't call them to everyone's attention, but if it doesn't stop I will do so in PM...to admin.

It would defeat the purpose of this thread if ppl take personal offense at what is being discussed. Or assume that complaints against "mods" or any one person is the goal. Let's lay our emotions aside and continue to discuss this as adults. To work through any problem, facts have to be faced, and if it's the conduct of members/mods that is part of the issue that doesn't mean the focus is to denegrate them, imo.

If we are to hold to the guidelines, then all of us posting in this thread, including DocJohn needs a naughty mat.

Perhaps a once a month directed chat to discuss PC issues would help? That might help the communication. Not a whining session, but honest discussion? Sometimes just a complete explanation of what is going on and what decisions have been made can alleviate the friction. Without inclusion it could feel like a dictatorship or something similar (I'm sure downsolong can tell me the correct idea.)

While I understand the mantra is that the mods/admin all discuss each issue, and that's a nice concept, we all know it doesn't happen all the time. Mods and admin have to know this, because some of us who have no ear to the discussions "know" it... and it probably isn't possible given all the activity on the site. Mods need to be able to act with confidence on their own at times, we all understand this. However, mods are the only ones who can monitor each other when their disorders flare and those single actions need to be prevented.

On the other side of the fence, I wonder why inaction is sometimes the course of action.... and if there is always action (say for the repeat offending member) then membership also needs to know it, because the frustration, of wondering why some are dealt with swiftly and others are allowed to go on and on, can build and upset the whole site, as most of us know.

For example, I and another member took quite a bashing in the spirituality forum some weeks ago, and the irritation was not smoothed for what seemed like an eternity. Certainly much slower than the reactions from my posting trying to work things through. When these types of things occur the way they do, it really doesn't matter what the truth is, because the truth becomes what is seen as happening or not. And when the fear builds that the offending member is "getting away with" anything (because of delay or whatever) then the red flags and bells and whistles and all sorts of "Danger! Will Robinson!" warnings go off inside of the "victim." We all need to work at limiting that as best we can. I think when we see others come to the side/aid of the victim that is what is happening... support in the strongest tone?

IDK Downsolong, if this thread will result in finding that there was a point in trying to discuss these things here. It will be greatly disappointing to me if nothing comes of this energy I've expended here on this thread -or worse - that having been lured into the web I find myself eaten by the spider.

sky, i am hearing you and understanding you. i am certainly not blaming any one mod or any one administrator. when i say "administration" i'm having an overview in my head of stuff that goes on and we aren't told the how and why.......i'm not picking out LeeAnn or John......

i'm trying to explain how i feel here sometimes. i'm not trying to set anyone off. i didn't appreciate the potshots either. but if we can put the personal crap aside and talk about it....how can it not help PC?

1. i don't think there are nearly enough moderators.
2. mods disappear and we are never told when or why.
3. some people don't even know who the mods are right now.
4. i don't think we need to keep referring to specific items if we
are going to be able to just talk about Psych Central and how it's
workings affect us as posters.

i support more openness and less distress. after all, we're PC.

Pat, I wish you had suggested these things earlier. This is helpful. Some of the above... we can do that.

1) we feel that way too and are working on it
2) we didn't know that it was important to the membership, but we can do so in the future (if the mod agrees - we wouldn't do so if they asked for it to be unannounced)
3) I don't know what to do about that. The mods are always listed at the bottom of each forum. We have a PM greeting sent to all new members - I suppose it could be added to that.
4) yes, we DO need to be specific. General complaints aren't helpful. Specific suggestions are.

Thanks

A list of Moderators could be added to the greeting, if I had it. I requested it some time ago.

Since this is still in the self help forum, and frankly I can't personally do anything to change the admin issues of PC, I have to continue to address my ongoing attitude of what could be improved here (IMO, see?)

I think if a set of standard PMs could be created and sent out, rather than a PM from the mod/admin trying to phrase something sensitive and at times fumbling... I know for me that would take some of the personal sting out of receiving such notices.

It's a tough thing to always have to walk (or feel like one is) on eggshells here. ANY time there is a thread where I voice an opinion that isn't widely accepted, I hate logging in. The anticipation of having a PM from a mod where once again I have to explain myself (or, where I am frequently expected to "know better" than) anyway, that anxiety is unnerving. It's almost not worth posting anything but a smiley of agreement, even if there is another side to view it ...the one I hold. My self esteem isn't so fragile that I can't overcome most anything, however I don't think that's so for many members. There are a lot of members who don't post, just so they can avoid any appearance of conflict or hurt, imo.

I don't talk like "everyone" else here at PC (nor IRL.) But even when I try to find correct, acceptable words, I'm still not always understood. We don't have the option of tone inflection here, and many ppl create their own pauses and accents to what they read. I try reading something a few times with different emphasis before I "take offense" or flag a moderator on a post.

Another area that I need to address for myself is the movement of posts that contain ANY thing spiritual being moved to the Spirituality Forum. For me, not getting upset that "it just isn't right" to do that, needs to be thought about. How is a thread about Psychotherapeutic Spirituality methods NOT proper in Psychotherapy Forum, but only for Spiritual support? I sure hope that isn't the view of things to come here. Isolating everything spiritual into a neat little box just doesn't fly with me. How do I do self help on that one?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
<font color="blue">

As for locked threads... I don't see a need to lock threads because of content... delete the offending posts.

Another thought about locking threads...

some members take pride in getting a conflicting member's thread locked.

Some are very cunning in the way they do it. There's a real battle on PC with this at times, imo.

Then, the locked thread is there for all to read anyway...what good is that? It continues the discussion and if any, upset.

Remove the offending posts. If they all offend, then delete the thread. When the offending post is removed, copy and paste it to the offender in a PM, so they KNOW what you're talking about. If a mod just PMs the offender and says I had to edit/delete your post, then a member just has to take their word for it, and can't figure out why or what...because they don't know what exactly was posted. </font>

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

but see? That's the conundrum. I guess I didn't explain that part well.

When we lock a thread instead of removing a single post, it's usually because BOTH parties/camps are complaining about the other. Both have *some* good points and neither are completely crossing the line. If we intervene when it's questionable, then we get bashed for censoring. And if we let it go to see if members can work things out, then we're being negligent. When posts aren't crossing the guidelines, then it's all so subjective that it's not so easy as 'delete the offending post', because more than half the time, both parties are offending each other. We could delete the entire post, but that causes even more upset because all of the GOOD responses are also removed. So we lock it so that members that posted to the thread can still read/appreciate the good parts.

We always consider most of the points mentioned here (whether Sky believes me or not), but when we decide to lock instead of remove a single post, more often than not it's because the issue isn't completely cut-and-dried and we err on the side of NOT removing a post -- to avoid being the type of moderators that censor subjectively.

This is the MAIN REASON we don't discuss administrative issues in public:

Because moderators and admins are VOLUNTEERS here, which means their time is especially valuable to me. They willingly give and donate their time to help the community. Opening up admin decisions to the public would mean every decision would be analyzed, and in many cases, picked to death. Trust me, I tried this at one time, and it didn't work well. I, and the volunteers, spent 90% of our time explaining ourselves and actions in the admin forum from 3 or 4 people who had the biggest problem with things. Meanwhile, hundreds of other people suffered from the sheer focus on addressing and responding to those 3 or 4 same people, over and over again.

The second, slightly lesser reason but in my eyes, almost as important, is people's privacy. We take actions here and there and we keep most of them private because a lot of people (dare I say most?) don't like being called out publicly for some infraction they may have incurred. Since people's privacy here is a fairly large concern, I chose to err on the side of privacy when discussing admin issues as well. I have not regretted that choice once, because I've received thankful PMs for handling a situation with a simple PM rather than making a public note about it. Why not have both? Because people will notice when we don't post something to the admin board, and ask why we're censoring *that* discussion (when the people involved very well may want nothing about it made public). You can't have it both ways -- some people simply will not respect the boundaries.

Sometimes, I, as your host, can choose to suspend a guideline in order to discuss the *meta* issue about a guideline. We've done this in the past, and I will continue to do if it fosters healthy debate and discussion.

As for locking threads, I will just say this. If you don't believe and/or respect our reasons for locking threads here, then I suspect there's little I can say to change that. I never intended a thread to become "owned" by someone for all of eternity, to be here forever, to be added to forever. That is an oversight on my part for which I apologize, but because of that attitude, it sometimes contributes to our issues with what should be a fairly simple action (this thread is closed; if you want to continue the topic without the anger or arguments, do so in a new thread).

DocJohn

Oh, and one more thing...

Respect is an important component to any online community. Members who don't respect one another, or the administrative team, tend to have the hardest time in a community.

Sometimes an community team member will make a decision that a person may strongly, emotionally disagree with. I respect your right to disagree with that decision. You are more than welcomed to bring such concerns to me, or to even vent in a PM if you'd like. I have absolutely no problems with that.

What I do have a problem with is members using an opportunity, any opportunity, to basically call a member of the team a liar, dishonest or disingenuous. That is plainly disrespectful and uncalled for.

Please do not take an opportunity to discuss community administrative issues as an opportunity to bash the community team here. I will not stand for it.

Thanks,
DocJohn

Downsolong:

I'm so sorry that I bothered you by changing the title of your thread. I had no idea I was doing something wrong or discourteous to you. I would never have done that intentionally. I hope you didn't think I did something to cut off your discussion.

Please help me find the Guiderules for posting on this forum. Maybe you can send them to me at my email address (drclay@charter.net) because I doubt if I could find your response to this post. I am having a hard time finding me way around this site, in spite of help from Sky. Is there a road map for finding your way around the forums? or even a way to locate different threads within a forum?

Again, I sincerely apologize for upsetting you.

drclay

Maybe the "guidelines" section found at the "General forum" can be of some help?

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry, these are not always obvious (you agree to them when you first signup for an account, but a lot of times people don't really read them at that time).

http://forums.psychcentral.com/rules

There's a link at the very bottom of every forum page that links to them, and they also appear on the main forum index under the General forum....

Dr. Clay, thank you for your concern for the posters and explaining your posts........pat

I guess you're right, downsolong. There is no point to trying anymore, not for me anyway.

I couldn't find who was "bashing" people on this thread, and I surely didn't have a clue who wasn't showing "respect" to others. I really don't have a clue how others perceive I have done these wrong things. But obviously, I will learn to conform, or else.

My apologies all.

PS I understand EXACTLY where you are at

(((Dr Clay)))
Thanks, means a lot.
Sorry people give you a hard time sometimes.
Know you are just trying to help.

Disrespect...

Seems to come up as a common theme...

Disrespect and frustration.

I personally think it is a shame that the thread turned into talking about the way things are instead of how people feel about the way they take things to be...

But then it isn't my thread, I guess.
(And even if it was lol)

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
DocJohn said:

Respect is an important component to any online community. Members who don't respect one another, or the administrative team, tend to have the hardest time in a community.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

What are we to do IF a certain PC member has an issue with another PC member that cannot or has not been resolved (after several attempts).... should WE come straight to YOU concerning this matter?

Thank you,
Rhapsody -

Any of us on the admin/mod team would be happy to try to help you work it out. Options include working with both members through PM or scheduling a chat with one or more moderators.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Rapunzel said:
Any of us on the admin/mod team would be happy to try to help you work it out. Options include working with both members through PM or scheduling a chat with one or more moderators.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Thanks.................... but this has already been done and it has helped for a month or two - and then BAM! - there it goes again.

I do not post as I once did for I now have concerns to how an other member may use what I share.... as to hurt or attack ME.

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

I have been following this thread and wishing that I had the answers. I think that we need to have discussions like this, because there are people here who are feeling like they can't say what they need to say. It is important to know that. I agree with all of you about the importance of open, honest communication. The key, of course, is to do that with respect. That can be very difficult when emotions run high. Also remember that not everything needs to be said to everyone. This site has three ways to communicate - posts, PMs, and chat.

I still don't know what else to say, but I just want you to know that you are being heard and we are trying to find ways to make this site work better. This site may not be perfect, but I suspect that if there were one out there that was perfect, everyone would be there instead of here. I don't know about all of you, but I stay here for three reasons. This site helps me. I haven't seen a better one. My friends are here.

I wonder, since you ask what's the point, what is the point in staying here if you are unhappy? What do you like about being here that keeps you hanging around? I'm not suggesting that anyone leave - just hoping to bring balance into the current conversation.

Rap

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
"When you decide to tell the truth about your thoughts and feelings, the first step is to know the intention of your communication. This is important because your intention determines your results. If your intention is to create healing, intimacy, more harmony or more clarity, that's what will happen."

Layne and Paul Cutright

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I like your quote very much, Wendy, but like anything else, it takes two... or more. It takes the speaker as well as the listener(s). It's almost impossible to get through when the listener(s) don't listen because of defensiveness, anger, hurt feelings or simply aren't in a receiving mode.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
DocJohn said:
I never intended a thread to become "owned" by someone for all of eternity, to be here forever, to be added to forever. That is an oversight on my part for which I apologize, but because of that attitude, it sometimes contributes to our issues with what should be a fairly simple action (this thread is closed; if you want to continue the topic without the anger or arguments, do so in a new thread).

DocJohn

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Let's give it a rest; what part of "this thread is closed" from Page 6 did we not understand? It doesn't seem to be "self-helping" which this forum is for either.

Somebody start a thread on something they're personally working on in the self-help arena, yeah?

I, for one, thought DocJohn was including that as part of an explanation about ANY particular thread being closed. I haven't known DocJohn to close a thread verbally, without also locking it, but could be?

And, wasn't this thread begun by someone working on something in the self-help area?

I'm kewl with it all. I've learned a great deal from this thread, way more than just what was written.

TC!