12 steps and the disorders

Hi,
I have schizoid pd, I would like to talk to anyone who would be intersted in working along the lines similar to AA on this. We could adapt the original AA programme to us, but still have the principles.
Over the yeas many alcoholics have found healing and recovery from an often untreatable condition, I believe this needs to happen for us with pds too. I was in recovery for addiction, not really recovering, then discovered about pd, then I knew why it was so difficult for me to get well, I believe I needed that approach to recovery, but with the focus on the disorder which was underlying the addiction.

Anyone else like to talk about this?

River.

It's a good idea. I hope you find your group.

RiverX:

Sorry it took me so long to respond.

I agree with you about approaching a Personality Disorder by using an 12 step program. There are a few Personality Disorders that have been research enough to have a scientific basis for using specific methods, e.g. Paranoid, Borderline and maybe others. A supportive, insightful group might be the best way to explore a particular PD and work out treatments (often self-help procedures done with help from the group).

You might find a local self-help group who would be interested in doing this. If some advice is needed in forming and organizing a PD group, you might look over these two Websites:

Self-Help Group Sourcebook Online (http://mentalhelp.net/selfhelp/)

Steps in the 12 step program (http://www.12step.org/steps/index.php)

Let me know if these URLs do not work.

You are familiar with 12 step groups. What are your opinions about this approach to PDs? have you had trouble getting a group organized?

Good luck. I hope to hear that you have made some progress.

drclay

I hate to throw a wrench in this discussion, but I'm not too fond of the 12 step programs. I shouldn't be poopooing it, I know, but I've found it to be cult-like, and also a "revolving door" for some, though many also find the recovery and help they need there. I can elaborate if necessary.
Patty

You do not have to be fond of the programs to recognize that they have helped many. They are an extremely low-cost way for people who have no chance of getting into an expensive treatment program for addictions to find their way. You will not find a sympathetic audience in me, even though I left the program many years ago and recognize its defects as well as any cynic might.

It is understandable that some alcoholics and drug addicts are in and out of the program endlessly, because there is no single approach that works with these intractable diseases of the human condition.

As for using the 12 steps to treat other conditions besides alcoholism and addiction, I found a lot of whining going on in al-anon and ACOA. This doesn't mean those programs are bad; it just means they didn't resonate for me.

You have to want recovery, and if you don't, neither 12 steps nor other forms of treatment will work.

At least, that's my $.02.

Wants & Seeker:

I wanted to encourage the two of you to continue on with the discussion of groups as a way of learning to deal with specific problems. It is important that one be exposed to the advantages of groups and to the many ways self-help groups can fail.

About half of my teaching from 1970 to 1995 was spent in small groups of undergraduates majoring in psychology. I taught every semester a 3-hour credit class (Intro to Helping--starting with self-help) of 40 students which was divided for just one day per week into groups of 10. On that day psychology majors (and I) ran a training group in which we (me too) focused on changing something about ourselves or improving some relationship. We helped classmates practice self-help methods that seemed promising within their problem. We found out what worked and what didn't (and why). We helped each other learn to get better. We kept confidence (no discussing problems outside of class).
We were serious and stayed on task. As a way to learn self-help and as a way to actually help classmates, I thought it was a great experience (or me and the students).

Yet, I agree with the people who criticize groups (AA for drinking is only one kind). Groups can fail to help if the leaders are not on top of what is happening, if there are group members who destroy the group spirit, if disagreements aren't settled early, and on and on. After trying to solve the group problems without success, go looking for a better group & leader.

It would be a good idea for interested people in this forum to discuss in detail how a person might try to deal with group problems (is there a forum about this?). Another good topic is how to find a good group if you want another group (here in the Forums or near your home).

drclay

PS: I'm on vacation next week so I will be quiet.

I'd be glad to begin that thread, drclay, on Dealing with Support Group problems. I think this thread is a good one to find the good stuff with the AA and as it applies to mental health.

Enjoy your vacation!

_Sky:

I think there might be interest in discussing Support Groups' Strengths and Problems.

Over the years I have been surprised at the insight and empathy that bubbles up in groups. Even when very questionable ideas (in my opinion) are offered in groups, I have been repeatedly surprised how often someone adds another facet that integrates the questionable idea cogently and nicely.

If you set up a new thread, I'm sorry I will miss the first posts but I will catch up. Perhaps someone will bring a computer to the beach that I can borrow.

drclay

Thank you so much for all your responses. I wrote that soon after I found this place, then I got so involved in exploring, reading, writing, etc that I forgot about this, Im really appreciate your responses.

I've been in recovery for a long time and I certainly can see the downsides of groups and all that can go wrong. I often feel sickened by what seems to me to be 'group think' and have, (as schizs do,) found myself painfully on the outside.
So, I'm no chauvenist. But there is something about the power of identification, at a deeper level that I am drawn to. I had internal problems all my life and tried to get well in the fellowships , and frankly, some things improved but I wasnt cutting it, my internal world reverted to the same. And I was increasingly floating away from connectedness, caught in the grips of obsession etc.

Then I discovered the disorders and it explained my life to me and so I kept reading. And now I'd love to share and find others who'd like to explore and identify and create a process, write expereinces etc. and then if it proved helpful eventualy, perhaps others could also benefit.

Well, that has been my thinking anyway. I think I have to accept it may not be a realistic possibility, but still have the courage to ask. Its been difficult, because at times, having this idea and this passion, has put me in position of feeling like outsider again, and feeling disconnected from others.
. Its good, though that this is here so that I can check out what the response is, and at least talk to poeple. I'd be happy to say more if others would like to know

Warm regards,

RiverX
ps, Patty what did you mean about a revolving door?

Hope you have a good hol Dr Clay, and thank you for your response and interest in this.

RiverX...Your response is interesting and insightful, showing that you have great empathy and self-examination.
I want to explain why I posted the "poopooh" about 12 step groups:
I was introduced to AA when, shortly after my divorce, I became foolishly involved with a man who lived near the little house I had bought from the divorce settlement. So happy to be free, I was not in the least interested in meeting a man. This fella, much younger than me, seemed to be outside my house ALL the time, and began pursuing me romantically. I actually told him several times to stay away from me, but having been in an emotionally sterile marriage (brother/sister) relatiolnship for 20 years, I succumbed to his advances. I listened to his sob story of alcoholism/addiction and recovery. He was living with his parents at the time in my subdivision, and recovering from hospitalization from alcohol poisoning. I had never been around such an addict before, and had no idea of the ramifications. I began driving him to AA meetings, and sitting in as a guest. I was impressed by his eloquence...He realliy knew how to "talk the talk!"
He was age 32 and I was 47, and he was highly sexual toward me. Having been deprived of this all my adult life, I now realize how vulnerable I was. Before I knew what was happening, he had moved out of his parents' house and into mine. Yeah...I know now how stupid this was, but he was so persuasive, and even his mother told me, "homeless alocholics are very good at finding places to live!" I continued to drive him to AA meetings, listening to his spheel (sp?)...Soon, though, within a month, he was stealing from me, ultimately to the tune of around $20,000.
I kicked him out and he began stalking me...his "supply!"
It was not only drinking, but crack use, and though I contacted the police many times, they were ineffective till he broke into my house one night with a gun and tried to shoot me. I escaped, and the police came in SWAT fashion, arresting him. The gun had jammed.
He went to jail, then prison, then probation. Now he is back in AA talking the talk. I'm soured on AA because of this.
I did attend CODA for a while, but found that too to be people talking the talk....me...me...me!
I do know that my stalker character is still attending AA, though I am not the only one he has conned. Another male member revealed to me after the stalkng/gun incident that this young man had moved into his house, being homeless, only to seduce his wife. Despite this behavior, he is still free to attend AA...the revolving door.
Patty

RiverX and Patty:

Perhaps you and others would be interested in gaining self-insight. There has been some interesting work done in this area--I cite it in several chapters. The best way to find this work is to look up the author in the bibliography of my book and then read about his work.

One recent book is: Pennebaker, J. W. and Seagal, J. D., Forming a story: the health benefits of narrative.

This is a beneficial method which isn't given a lot of attention.

I'm off to the beach. I'll read your impression of Pennebaker when I am back home.

drclay

RiverX, I think it's wonderful that you are wanting to get a group together-- for more understanding and healing. You must have great self-insight-- which is a big plus!(IMO-in my opinion))

I'm sorry though, I don't think I have the awareness that you do. Perhaps my mental struggle is more deeply embedded?.... the way I think/feel is all I've known my whole life.... been in therapy where the T. has "put a mirror" in front of me-- and I've been speechless! didn't see myself that way... I find it exhausting -- (trying to see into myself and understand how/why I am) like learning a new language when an adult....

I often don't see it myself-- have to be shown by someone.

I also have not ever done well in groups..... I'm the one in the back, in the corner, that doens't say ONE word... and then a few times later... since I was "invisibly" there- I just really do disappear-- and quit going. I get so worried what others think of me, I'm sure they wish I wasn't in the group, if they even noticed I was there in the first place......

I hope you won't feel like you're "outside looking in"....(that's an awful feeling that I know all too well) I think your idea is a great one for those that have good self-insight.

RiverX-- good luck to you!

mandy

<font color="#000088">I don't do well in a group of people either,like in a room of people sitting in chairs,it really bothers me bad.I have a major problem with being in a crowd,or a crowded room. I just can't breath,and it makes me feel like I have all these eye's on me. And I just can't take it,and I end up running out of the room and never coming back. It scares me too much to have eye's on me constantly.
I had a similar experience just like seeker did with an addict to gambling I got involved with,and he tried to kill me as well.And as soon as he was released from jail, he stalked me to,and the restraining order didn't do a thing.The cops wouldn't do anything unless they caught him in the act,so he kept getting away every time before the cops arrived,so he never got in trouble for the stalking. I ended up hiding in the mountians in campgrounds,and them moving around from the beach bluff campgrounds, and then back up to the mountains again so he wouldn't find me for about 4 months until I came to Utah. Then about a year later, a friend of mine from my old neighborhood told me that he was still down there looking for me! He wanted me dead, he blamed me for him being put in jail. When it was his actions that got him there,I was lucky to survive.He blamed me, because in his mind,none of it would have happened if I would have just gave him the money he wanted to go to the casino with his Mother!Instead of saying No! And then calling 911 when he tried to kill me over it. So I'm with seeker on this one! </font>

Thank you so much for these answers. My comp is packing up so I might get only so far in aswering, but I feel I could write and write. Danger of me coming accross as knowall!!! Maybe its true that I have come to know a lot, but its a dubious honour. When I discovered about pd, I became so obsessed, to reading about it so much that my life stood still, I achieved nothing else. So if there is any way all this can be helpful to anyone, then thank God. For nearly 3 years now, poeple who politely ask me 'so, what have you been doing?' I have hard time answering,

I'm pleased to have poepe who I can share this discussion with now. Thank you. My comp is gettng stuck
agn now, hope to get it mended, and come back to answer. rivr

My comp is repaired, hope it lasts now.

Patty, thank you for telling me your story, it has been in my mind this weekend. I'm horrified at what happened, its a terrible trauma, and on top of that its a betrayal that he can go backt to AA and talk the talk and seemingly get away with it. And, specially as that is the place where they talk spiritual and talk service etc. It has made me think. I do totally beliveve what happened. I can see how it can happen, and it shows me how blind people can be.
It was very understandable you getting involved with the guy, when you dont know, its easy to be persuaded, (I've even been persuaded by these types when I did know!)

This isnt comparable, but just to show I know it can happen, - I was in one meeting, this woman talking, you could hear a pin drop, a more inspiring speaker one couldnt wish to hear. Sometime later I went to the pictures with her. BARKING! Totally barking mad she was, she nearly assaulted some Japanese tourists who innocently sat down next to us!

I think I can see how the 12 step idea could work, I got so excited about the idea at first, but I think I need to now take a step back and do some listen and learn.

River.x

River...
Thanks....I have been away for a couple of days, and during that time, i felt perhaps I shouldn't have related the bad I experience I had with the stalker....
Until meeting this person, I knew nothing of AA or 12 step programs, and so my introduction to it is certainly tainted by his sociopathic behavior and abuse of the program.
I know that many people are helped by the 12 step programs, and from my observation, these people are good and sincere in their behavior and intentions. I observed that many longterm members seem to have a wisdom to discern the sincere desire for recovery vs. the con artist using the program for dishonest motives. Unfortunately, when a person talks the talk, I have trouble determining who's sincere and who's not.
Patty

[I hope you won't feel like you're "outside looking in"....(that's an awful feeling that I know all too well) I think your idea is a great one for those that have good self-insight.

mandy

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Thanks for what you said Mandy,
I think I'll have to let up on this mission and accept what is, lots of encouragement but no takers! If one day I come accross someone else who would like to try this out, - it would only need a small group, then that would be great, 3 would be enought to start, - well it will either happen or it wont.

I have read some of your other posts, and I dont see you as you describe yourself, or, that isnt how I have expereinced your sharing. I have felt what you talk about is really on the mainline of the issues that apply to me too, so it has been helpful to read them.
Re your group expereinces: I remember one slaa group, I used to go home on my bike in tears on a saturday night, everone seemed to be friends with eachother, but not me. I carried on going for far too long, thinking, it should be alright here, its what I believe in after all!
Nowadays I am able to leave much more quickly if its no good for me. The guy I have been reading calls it 'Self in Exile', and that name fits so well for me. (I felt that a fellowhip with a focus on these issues, no-ne need get exiled)
Sometimes, also, I go into a situation of strangers with confidence, and then slowly slip out of sink with everyone and that feels worse than having gone in shy in the first place.

River.x

Patty,
Yeah, these things are also true. Well now, between us we seem to have just about covered the worst and best aspects of what can go on in these fellowships. I think its good you said what you did, its about truth.
Welcome back from being away. My computer seems to be holding up as well, so I'm delighted.
Only I've done it again, its nearly 2 am here and I'm still up.

Goodnight!

river.x