[paintingravens]

I put up a trigger icon just to be safe...

(and I'm a tad sleep-deprived right now—been busy this week—so I'm going to ramble on a bit :P)

But yeah, from a philosophical standpoint, is pain really that terrible? I mean, we as self-injurers are used to pain, or at least, used to inflicting pain upon ourselves. We experience something that too few people do; we may find enjoyment from pain. And perhaps it IS rooted in deep-seated issues resulting in some guilt-driven need for self-punishment, or a way to cope with life's troubles, or something of the like, but (and here's where I may get a tad random...) what is life about really? The human experience? It's not just about feeling happy all the time; it involves taking in the sad, as well. The dark and the light. The good and the bad. The pleasure and the pain. Life's a balance, right?
The good times are beautiful. We all love when good happens. Good times can make us feel ALIVE. But at the same time, pain (both physical and metaphorical) can be good as well. I mean, not only does it serve its purpose of reopening our eyes to the good, of reawakening our appreciation for the good times when we so often take them for granted, but pain ITSELF... it can be beautiful too. In its own sort of way. The act of cutting open flesh, of watching your life force flow out of you, to bring a match to your skin, burn off skin, to feel a sensation most people are afraid of feeling... it can be empowering.
I know myself, back when I was not even thinking about stopping my cutting (I haven't since february), when I would hear people whine about things, especially about petty things, things as little as a papercut they may have received during the day, I would be inwardly smirking. These people whined about their pain, while I just controlled mine. I dished out my OWN pain, and I could handle it. I felt stronger because of it.
Maybe self injury is a bad thing. Or maybe it's just the motivations behind it that are bad. What if I were to make a new cut on my skin, for no reason other than I was bored or simply felt like it? What if I just like the sensation of pain itself? What if I cut into myself simply for the sake of experience, because I wanted to live “on the edge”, so to speak? Bungie jumping, white water rafting, sky diving, bull riding, motorcross, extreme snowboarding, racing, boxing, etc... all of these “on the edge” activities really aren't in any way any safer than self-injury, yet they're perfectly socially acceptable activities. We're coaxed by so-called safety measures into believing that they're safe (some of them, anyway), but really, they're not. Not even remotely close. A number of things could happen that could result in, should the worse happen, death. And people freak out with a few cuts on the skin?
Maybe the sleep deprivation has incited this rant; maybe it's just an elaborate justification of my past actions, or maybe this is just a rationalization of any possible self-injury I might inflict in the future... either way, I still feel like—always have, in fact—that SI is not always as bad as everyone makes it out to be. At the least, pain itself isn't.
Apologies for the rant. Hope I didn't bore everyone to death. :P

[stove14]

hmmm... I've never really thought about it, but I wanted to reply just so you would know I was here and listening...
sometimes just knowing that someone is out there helps me.
I cut in 07 after traumatic episode and then after when i was in hosp i was refered to as suicidal ...But I wasnt/didnt. the cuts were for letting some pain out and to feel life, but those at hosp would not hear me...
it was a very confusing time and there is alot i dont remember from that time (b4,during and after the hosp). Alot of what I "know" are things that were told to me "you did this,you said that"it was about 5 months later(after i got out of hosp) that i was told i had been in traumatic shock...still havent figured that out since i was diagnosed with depression - It was like they completely ignored the fact that i had PTSD from when I was much younger...so very confusing
I hope knowing that someone is here helps...

[michelle421]

thank you for sharing, paintingravens.

i agree. i hear you. i understand. ...i don't have much more to share right now. but i thank you for your post. i think similar questions too.

[Sannah]

Hi PR, haven't heard from you in awhile. Occasional emotional pain is a part of life, occasional is the key word here. A healthy person is able to roll with the flow and be able to tolerate and work with their feelings, because it is a part of life. Normal stops with emotional pain, however, purposefully inflicting pain on yourself is not normal. It is self abuse. What kind of message is this sending to yourself when you abuse yourself? We have received enough abuse in our lives while growing up and this sent plenty of messages that we need to work through to become healthy. Continuing to abuse yourself just keeps on sending those messages that you deserve abuse. Taking care of yourself really, really sends good messages to yourself. It says that you are valuable and worthwhile. Allowing others to mistreat and abuse us sends us bad messages about ourself. A person needs to take care of themself, not abuse themself.

Extreme sports do not have a 100% injury rate. The person isn't doing the activity to injure themselves. They are doing it for the thrill and they are willing to take a small risk that they could injure themselves. Some might do it for SI reasons, however, I guess but this would be classified as SI then.

You write that it makes you feel powerful. Why not really feel powerful? When we have these types of issues there is always some unempowerment involved. Dysfunctional families turn out unempowered people. Why not really work on this issue and really get empowered. Feeling empowered because you are abusing yourself sounds like the perpetrators. This is why perpetrators abuse others. They don't want to be the victim anymore so they become the perpetrator. Abusing others gives them power so that they don't feel unempowered. It never occurs to them that this isn't the only paradigm in the universe. You can feel empowered with no abuse going on whatsoever. Do you want to be a perpetrator against yourself just so that you can feel powerful?

I'm really glad you are exploring this PR because this is how you work through this stuff that is in your head and which affects your behavior, good work..........

[stove14]

(((PR))) morning...

[Nemo39122]

Very interesting rant....I often wonder if SI is as bad as society says it is. Or as bad as I try to tell myself it is so I won't do it. Is it worse depending on the reason behind it? If that were true wouldn't trying to make yourself feel better be a good thing?
It seems your ranting is conagious, I'll stop typing while I still can

[paintingravens]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Hi PR, haven't heard from you in awhile. Occasional emotional pain is a part of life, occasional is the key word here. A healthy person is able to roll with the flow and be able to tolerate and work with their feelings, because it is a part of life. Normal stops with emotional pain, however, purposefully inflicting pain on yourself is not normal. It is self abuse. What kind of message is this sending to yourself when you abuse yourself? We have received enough abuse in our lives while growing up and this sent plenty of messages that we need to work through to become healthy. Continuing to abuse yourself just keeps on sending those messages that you deserve abuse. Taking care of yourself really, really sends good messages to yourself. It says that you are valuable and worthwhile. Allowing others to mistreat and abuse us sends us bad messages about ourself. A person needs to take care of themself, not abuse themself.

Extreme sports do not have a 100% injury rate. The person isn't doing the activity to injure themselves. They are doing it for the thrill and they are willing to take a small risk that they could injure themselves. Some might do it for SI reasons, however, I guess but this would be classified as SI then.

You write that it makes you feel powerful. Why not really feel powerful? When we have these types of issues there is always some unempowerment involved. Dysfunctional families turn out unempowered people. Why not really work on this issue and really get empowered. Feeling empowered because you are abusing yourself sounds like the perpetrators. This is why perpetrators abuse others. They don't want to be the victim anymore so they become the perpetrator. Abusing others gives them power so that they don't feel unempowered. It never occurs to them that this isn't the only paradigm in the universe. You can feel empowered with no abuse going on whatsoever. Do you want to be a perpetrator against yourself just so that you can feel powerful?

I'm really glad you are exploring this PR because this is how you work through this stuff that is in your head and which affects your behavior, good work..........

But what if a "thrill-seeking" goal WAS the reason people SI'ed? Hypothetically, what if someone decided to do it purely for the sake of experience? I think it's just the motivation behind people's action that determine whether said action is good or bad, abuse or not...

I guess that's true about extreme sports; people don't really do them just to injure themselves, which I didn't think much about... but the whole "live life on the edge" motivation -- if that's an SI-er's motivation (I know it's not everyone's motivation, but if it was), is not all THAT different, right? What about people who enjoy getting piercings and tattoos? Yes, it COULD be just their need for pain/punishment being sublimated into a more socially acceptable action, but I don't think it's much different than cutting open skin, either, if that IS the reason behind their love of body-mod... but what makes piercings and tattoos done for this reason any more acceptable that cutting or burning? It's still pain infliction upon oneself, but it's not usually considered self-abuse.

I have found other methods of empowerment that don't involve SI; the trials of life, when we find ways to work through them, learn about them, overcome them, makes us stronger and more experienced. Over the course of the past few years, I feel like I've grown, both emotionally and spiritually, despite the setbacks, and I know I'm still young and still have a lot to learn about life, but I HAVE grown. I was just noting that SI, at one point, did serve this purpose of empowerment for me. I liked not being afraid of pain, being able to take it. Actually, I still do, which I'm sure is partly the reason, for me at least, why it's harder to stop thinking about it completely.

[Mike_J]

Life is Suffering

At least that is what the first "Noble Truth" of Buddhism

Not that I belive it

[Sannah]

PR, I've never heard of people SI for thrill seeking. Does anyone here agree with that?

I got my ears pierced so that I could wear earrings. I hated the pain but I wanted the pierced ears enough to go through the pain. Maybe the difference is liking the pain or hating the pain? Yes, I have heard that piercings and tattooing can be a form of SI, but then the person would be doing it for the pain and not the end result?

I will keep thinking about this being proud of being able to take the pain. Do you think of it as a badge of honor? Many traditional cultures of long ago (and today too I guess) have rituals for boys which involve pain which proves their manhood I think?

[paintingravens]

Perhaps not, but I guess I was being hypothetical to make a point... I suppose if it's not true, then it might not have been the best argument to use...
Anywhos.

Maybe I AM rationalizing. And if so, maybe it's due to the fact that I may have slipped up yesterday afternoon... and after being SI-free since february. Darn it.
Ah well. I've been kinda standoff-ish since it happened. I'm sure this isn't completely true deep down, but I don't feel like I care much about it right now. I'm just, eh.

I actually did something new, apart from the usual cutting. This time, I heated up a metal spoon with my lighter and burned myself with said spoon. Meh.

I think I'm just really tired right now. Idk.

[thine_self_untrue]

Deep, hard questions... bare with me as a ramble...
How bad is pain? What makes pain good or bad? What makes anything good or bad? They say SI is wrong, but why? Is pain really that bad? I guess for myself, I don't know. I can cut myself with a sick smile on my face, and yet if I'm not expecting pain of even a lesser degree (non SI, like stubbing my toe) I'd wince. I too experience that feeling of being "powerful" and in control when I cut. Yes, there is something about cutting open your skin that does something to me- but why?
Pain is a part of life, I don't always ENJOY the pain I inflict upon myself, but I feel like I deserve to bare it.
I guess the more I think about it, the more I don't understand about why I SI. I'm not doing it as thrill seeking or to get attention... there are so many reasons and so many causes I just don't understand.
Sorry, I'm muddled. Is pain really that bad? I tell myself "You have no idea what real pain is. You have no idea what it means to hurt." Part of me is afriad to hurt, part of me wants to hurt until I can hurt no more.
Pain is a complex thing, just like the human person. I'm gonna shut up now because nothing in this reply makes sense. Thanks for the post, though, Paintingravens.

[bluegirl...?]

oh wow, so much rambles and thoughts and questions >.< *must add my own muddled thoughts!*

i think some people SI for the thrill.. when i go into my cutting rampages, i always thought basically what pain could be worse than how i was feeling?, so the small [but many] cuts on my skin feels like nothing at the time, kinda almost pleasurable and seeing the blood start to ooze out my skin was enjoyable. and when i get papercuts, i freak out; they hurt tons to me. -So, how can i cut myself...? -isnt cutting even deeper than papercuts? ~well, i think when you're expecting the pain, wanting it, needing it, the pain doesnt seem to hurt as much [or maybe it does, but we're just not aware of it?]

when i SI, i like being able to control it. i guess i feel 'empowered' when i cut; i like knowing i can stop it if i needed to [i mean, for example: if my parents had been beating me, i can tell them No, but they may not stop. when i purposely cut, i could stop if the pain got unbearing. fyi- i don't get physically beaten by my parents; just wanted to make that clear] and i just plain out like the rush in my body when i am SI'ing.

BUT, when something bad hasnt just happened to me and i dont have the rush in my body building, i cant SI. its Ugh to me and it has no appeal and i need the need/want to SI to actually cut myself. without it, im just cutting to cut.

-ive been pretty much done with SI since january, but ive had my slip ups and i Know SI isnt done forever in my life; ive jjust been able to avoid going to the blade when it calls my name. i find something else to do while the rush is inside so that i cant SI. -i dont really WANT to SI, but i just want to feel powered sometimes .. my SI is a complicated mess i have yet o understand; i know what i want in it sometimes, but i dont know the why's. [and the reason i know SI isnt done with me just yet is because if i cant understand why i am cutting, i wont ever be able to stop completely]

-bluegirl

[paintingravens]

Ok, thought just occurred to me (I've been insanely preoccupied with studying for exams the past few days, so it hasn't exactly been the top thing on my mind). I wish to make a correction on my take-back of the extreme sports analogy... I'm so brain dead right now, so bear with me...

People may not SI to thrill-seek, per se. But it is similar to extreme sports in the sense that.... well, why do people who "live life on the edge", those adrenaline junkies, if you will, seek that thrill in the first place? To get a rush? To feel alive? Do we sometimes not SI for the same reasons? I mean, there are a number of reasons to SI: to express inner pain, to distract from pain... When we feel completely numb, we may SI just to FEEL. Feel pain. Feel alive. Feel SOMETHING. In this sense, it is similar to those extreme sporting adrenaline junkies/thrill-seekers. That's all I meant by that, lol. (Again, I am SO brain dead, so forgive the delayed elaboration of my analogy...)

[bluegirl...?]

((((PR))))
-your questions have made me really, like, think for once so thanks(:

i personally think in some/most cases of SI, people wanna feel, well, alive or just feel or have The Rush -no matter the reason-.

which is the same with high-risk activities/some sports. why do people ride rollar coasters?~for the rush, the feeling it gives our tummies, the adreniline [spelling?] pumping thrpough us.

engaging ourselves into certain sports/activities and SI ARE* similar, but the main difference is that with SI, you Want the pain, you are basically asking for it. with the sports/activities, you dont wanna get hurt -thats why people wear headgear or seat belts or mouth guards, etc-. when i went to Orlando before and rode rides, i just was thinking of all the fun loops and drops and stuff on rides, not feeling pain on tge rollar coaster. when i used to SI, i was purposely giving myself pain - i WANTED it-.

so, i guess, thats what i think

-bluegirl

[paintingravens]

(((((bluegirl)))))
haha, no problem. Glad to serve as an intellectual stimulus.

I see what you mean. Though when we DO get a "rush" from SI, from feeling that pain, thats the reason we continue to SI. Its different from extreme sports, in that when we SI, its done to feel pain, but the reason we WANT to feel pain is because of that rush that results. While extreme sports offer a direct link to that rush, SI provides an indirect link. We seek the pain, BECAUSE of the rush that results.
Other times, we may seek the pain because we want the pain, itself; not because of the rush, but because the pain is all we feel we deserve.
But like I said, the reasons we SI often differ. And Im just rambling.

Just a ramble-palooza up in here...

And forgive my lack of punctuation. My keyboard is being weird, because my laptop likes to be a douche sometimes... Im growing exceedingly frustrated when I try to type an apostrophe and its NOT...WORKING... lol...

[bluegirl...?]

((((paintingraven))))

-you bring up very good points [and my brain feels a tad Ugh from all this Smartie Talk ] lol i guess its not everyday i face these questions; usually, my heads just stuck around math problems O.O

-YES! what you say pretty much sounds right to me, how you connected the two things together makes sense

-palooza's a funny word

-you dont have to say sorry for punctuation; i dont use it myself unless it can change the meaning of a word [its/it's] and i dont do capitalization, either... ～im using my DSi right now so its Very time-consuming to make everything right, and i dont like stuff thats time-consuming >.<

[Sannah]

I see your connection now PR with the extreme sports and I agree that the rush of biochemicals is what both groups want. The SI group wants their rush of biochemicals, however, to improve their mood due to emotional issues which are dragging them down. I have never heard that the extreme sports people want the rush for this reason? I don't know why they want this rush?

This link down here explains folks who need the rush from extreme sports:

[michelle421]

thank you all for the comments... i think i needed some time to think. i am really interested in this topic, and don't often have anyone to talk to about it. at least, no one who understands me at all.

i've often wondered what's so bad about my SI. i am, in fact, very safe and in control. i heal. everything is fine, and maybe i end up with scars for a while. ...but what is really so terrible about that? i do SI for a lot of reasons, and sometimes i think the reasons are legitimate and sometimes i know i'm not in a great place and maybe something else would have been more healthy... but all in all, i am a pretty healthy person. i take care of myself, just in my own unique way.

sometimes the SI helps make me feel. sometimes it helps me NOT feel. sometimes it happens in response to a trigger or something stressful, sometimes it happens because i just felt like it or i did something that i thought was artistic or beautiful. sometimes i feel the pain a lot and sometimes i don't feel it at all. it depends on many things. is it always bad? is it sometimes bad?

thine and bluegirl:
i agree with you on the SI vs. stubbed toe/papercuts. i often feel very upset and it hurts a lot if that happens. sometimes i think i get upset because i don't have control over it. but i think it's odd that those small pains seem so much different, it hurts in a different way. i often think of the "pain" of SI as pleasurable. i find that pain and pleasure are so close and not as different as they seem to some people.

i also have mixed feelings about piercings and tattoos... i have 9 piercings. the first several that i got were not related to my SI. probably because i was younger at the time and hadn't struggled with SI stuff as much. though i know i got some piercings after i started to SI regularly, and those weren't related to my SI at all. however, the last few piercings i've gotten have been a little different. i have been very aware of my intentions to get the piercings, and it's complicated. i wanted both the experience of the piercing and the end result. i really enjoyed getting my last two piercings and was in a place where that feeling was exhilarating! it was grounding, and it was a rush like i get with SI sometimes. is that ok? i don't think it's wrong. many people may get piercings just to have them and don't want that pain, but is it wrong of me to like that experience? and is that different or better than if i did SI (since in this case, someone else did the body modification instead of me doing it... even though i chose to have it done. idk.)? i also think that when i got my last one done in particular, it actually kept me from doing any other SI for a long time (both before and after the piercing happened) because i was looking forward to the experience and i knew it would help ground me, and afterward i had this high that kept me safe from other SI... for a while. and also... it happens to be my favorite piercing. i think it is beautiful and i just love it!

i have always wanted a tattoo. it's taken me a while to be sure what i want to get. but also... i've been trying to put off getting my first one because i *know* that i'll probably become addicted... i know some people say tattoos are addictive. not everyone feels that way, for sure. but i can see that happening to me. i don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, i just want to be fully aware of what i'm getting myself into. within the last year i decided what my first tattoo will be, and i'm thinking i'll get it done next month for my birthday. i am so excited, i can hardly stand it. i am excited to get the tattoo since it will be really meaningful to me (it will be a design of a treble clef from a necklace i got from my grandmother's collection when she passed away just over a year ago.) and i am also incredibly excited for the experience. is it ok if i enjoy the feeling of being tattooed? i am not doing it to hurt myself, but i am doing it for many reasons that are complicated.

i just wonder if my feelings with piercings and tattoos is so entirely different from my SI. sometimes. maybe. ? i think since my SI happens for so many reasons, it's hard to judge it. each case may be different, and i will be able to explain and describe very different feelings each time. sometimes i think it's not good what i've done, but other times i can't say it's wrong. it's just different...

thanks for letting me share my thoughts.

[paintingravens]

Originally Posted by michelle421

thank you all for the comments... i think i needed some time to think. i am really interested in this topic, and don't often have anyone to talk to about it. at least, no one who understands me at all.

i've often wondered what's so bad about my SI. i am, in fact, very safe and in control. i heal. everything is fine, and maybe i end up with scars for a while. ...but what is really so terrible about that? i do SI for a lot of reasons, and sometimes i think the reasons are legitimate and sometimes i know i'm not in a great place and maybe something else would have been more healthy... but all in all, i am a pretty healthy person. i take care of myself, just in my own unique way.

sometimes the SI helps make me feel. sometimes it helps me NOT feel. sometimes it happens in response to a trigger or something stressful, sometimes it happens because i just felt like it or i did something that i thought was artistic or beautiful. sometimes i feel the pain a lot and sometimes i don't feel it at all. it depends on many things. is it always bad? is it sometimes bad?

thine and bluegirl:
i agree with you on the SI vs. stubbed toe/papercuts. i often feel very upset and it hurts a lot if that happens. sometimes i think i get upset because i don't have control over it. but i think it's odd that those small pains seem so much different, it hurts in a different way. i often think of the "pain" of SI as pleasurable. i find that pain and pleasure are so close and not as different as they seem to some people.

i also have mixed feelings about piercings and tattoos... i have 9 piercings. the first several that i got were not related to my SI. probably because i was younger at the time and hadn't struggled with SI stuff as much. though i know i got some piercings after i started to SI regularly, and those weren't related to my SI at all. however, the last few piercings i've gotten have been a little different. i have been very aware of my intentions to get the piercings, and it's complicated. i wanted both the experience of the piercing and the end result. i really enjoyed getting my last two piercings and was in a place where that feeling was exhilarating! it was grounding, and it was a rush like i get with SI sometimes. is that ok? i don't think it's wrong. many people may get piercings just to have them and don't want that pain, but is it wrong of me to like that experience? and is that different or better than if i did SI (since in this case, someone else did the body modification instead of me doing it... even though i chose to have it done. idk.)? i also think that when i got my last one done in particular, it actually kept me from doing any other SI for a long time (both before and after the piercing happened) because i was looking forward to the experience and i knew it would help ground me, and afterward i had this high that kept me safe from other SI... for a while. and also... it happens to be my favorite piercing. i think it is beautiful and i just love it!

i have always wanted a tattoo. it's taken me a while to be sure what i want to get. but also... i've been trying to put off getting my first one because i *know* that i'll probably become addicted... i know some people say tattoos are addictive. not everyone feels that way, for sure. but i can see that happening to me. i don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, i just want to be fully aware of what i'm getting myself into. within the last year i decided what my first tattoo will be, and i'm thinking i'll get it done next month for my birthday. i am so excited, i can hardly stand it. i am excited to get the tattoo since it will be really meaningful to me (it will be a design of a treble clef from a necklace i got from my grandmother's collection when she passed away just over a year ago.) and i am also incredibly excited for the experience. is it ok if i enjoy the feeling of being tattooed? i am not doing it to hurt myself, but i am doing it for many reasons that are complicated.

i just wonder if my feelings with piercings and tattoos is so entirely different from my SI. sometimes. maybe. ? i think since my SI happens for so many reasons, it's hard to judge it. each case may be different, and i will be able to explain and describe very different feelings each time. sometimes i think it's not good what i've done, but other times i can't say it's wrong. it's just different...

thanks for letting me share my thoughts.

My thoughts exactly.

There are much more controversial forms of body mod – scarification being one of them, and branding another. The first is pretty much just cutting an artistic design into the skin, and the scarring turns out awesome. This and branding (the burning of a design into skin) aren't nearly as acceptable as tattooing/piercing, though most forms of body mod are all generally painful to varying degrees.

I don't know why I thought to bring this up; all this talk about the relationship between body mod and SI reminded me of this... Some of us have done self-scarification at one point, and I don't completely object to it. If some people get tattoos/piercings partially for the pain involved, how is it any different to scarification/branding? I've always seen it as a way of turning pain into something beautiful, something that can be appreciated for its beauty, but also fulfills that desire for pain. In some cultures, it's a completely acceptable practice; most of the time, all these painful forms of body mod are done as a rite of passage – a sort of, if you can't handle the pain, you can't be a man, or if you can't handle this pain, surely you can't handle childbirth, and therefore are not a real woman.

Granted, a rite of passage IS different than craving pain just for the pain, but (and here I'm gonna refer back to my point of SI as a means of empowerment—that “I can handle/control my pain” sort of thing) for these cultures who do have these body mod rites of passage, it's not really all that different.