[Zenobia]

Went to my new therapist. The session was great. I felt safe and comfortable right off. It helps that I have known her on a work level for a few years and watched her help other people. We talked about my other T and we talked about my being borderline and how I know that I am. She said some nice things about borderline people and how she learned from one of them. She talked about forming safety nets to protect both of us on my spiritual quest and discussed my other T's concern about delussional states. She explained how we can tell if I should become delusional. This was a massive relief to me because I have seen people come into the shop (I work at a metaphysical bookstore) who are indeed delusional and know how easy it is to fall from reality.

The question she asked and said that needs to be answered is whether or not the purpose of my going to see her is to cause chaos in my life by bringing chaos into my relationship with my T. She said that the only one who can help me find that answer is him. He knows me best, much better then she does, and so she feels I need to discuss the move with him. To be truthful I totally forgot the chaos theory. It was a shock to be confronted with it. It got me to wondering. I had a dream last night that was interesting and dealt with it but I will have to write about it later because I have to get to work now.
Talk to you soon,
Carrie

<font color=green>But the implicit and usually unconscious bargain we make with ourselves is that, yes, we want to be healed, we want to be made whole, we're willing to go some distance, but we're not willing to question the fundamental assumptions upon which our way of life has been built, both personally and societally.--Bill Plotkin, Soulcraft

[Rapunzel]

Thanks for the update, Carrie. It sounds like this went well, and that your new T and you are both wise. You are starting out (or continuing) on a new journey that is going to be very interesting. Please continue to share it with us. I always enjoy your posts.
Wendy

<font color=orange>"They accused us of suppressing freedom of expression. This was a lie and we could not let them publish it." ... from the Director of Censorship...

</font color=orange>

[Zenobia]

Ok, Rapunzel, you asked for it, here is the dream *zenobia fades into blue dream state, wooo wooo wooo*

<font color=blue>I am at work. There is a new gal working with me. She is helping a woman customer with tarot cards. She isn't sure of the answer to the customer's question so she asks me to help. I start to respond to the customer when this guy comes over and I find out that the customer is actually looking for the cards for him. He is extremely obnoxious and scary in an overtly violent way. He has a weapon, I think baseball bat but I can't really be sure, that he is swinging around and he is bouncing off the stacks and being loud. I want to walk away from him but don't feel I can because he is a customer. I feel obligated to help him even though he is way out of line and acting like an ape.

<font color=black>Fortunately hubbies alarm clock when off so I didn't have to deal with the man any longer but now I wonder if I had been allowed to continue the dream if I would have been given a clue to what I needed to do to calm him down. I think the co-worker is my new T. I think the first customer is the person she saw at our session yesterday. I think the obnoxious ape man is my chaos monger.

I just thought of something, Do I want to go to Cathy because she is more responsive and therefore maybe easier to manipulate the Dan? Dan has always been firm with me, very distinct bounderies which left me feeling...shoot I can't think of the word...it isn't unloved, it isn't lonely...Oh heck I hate it when this happens...anyway maybe I know that Cathy will give me the affection that I crave. Is this a healthy thing? Will I use it to my advantage for unhealthy purposes? I better discuss this with her because I do know a big reason I thought of her was how warm she is.

Ozzie, I will start a new thread on the idea of chaos. I am too tired to delve into it tonight but it is an interesting topic and I would love the opportunity to discuss it with the people here. You know things like how we bring chaos in, how maybe we magnify our emotions to breed that chaos. Stuff like that.

<font color=green>But the implicit and usually unconscious bargain we make with ourselves is that, yes, we want to be healed, we want to be made whole, we're willing to go some distance, but we're not willing to question the fundamental assumptions upon which our way of life has been built, both personally and societally.--Bill Plotkin, Soulcraft

[Rapunzel]

Carrie,

If there is a clue for you on how to handle your chaos monger in that dream, then you will have another chance to retrieve that meaning. Maybe you weren't ready yet, and maybe it will be a different dream next time, but you will get it. You are so good at figuring things out! Thanks again for inviting us along on your journey.

It sounds like Cathy is able to give you something that you need that you do not get from Dan. Maybe Dan does know you better and still has more to help you with, but that doesn't mean that getting additional guidance and affection from Cathy is unhealthy, or even that she is easier to manipulate. There's nothing wrong with warmth.

I have a professor who I would kind-of like to be able to go to for therapy (which she does too). But she is too far away (the class is by satellite) and I'd also like to be able to have her as an academic reference, and I'm not sure that it would be possible to have it both ways. But I keep wanting to tell her more about me than I probably ought to. Some self-disclosure happens through the assignments for this class, so she knows about my depression, using SJW, bad eating habits, ... pretty much everything except about the SI, and I have a feeling that even that would not surprise her. Her responses to these things have been good (although brief), and she has already picked up the slack on a couple of things where my T missed his cue. And she is so much better at answering e-mail! So, I'm relating to your dilemma with the second therapist.

When you get to it, I'm very much interested in the chaos theory too. I'm wondering lately (well, this has been at least at the edge of my consciousness and I've even told people as long ago as 3 or 4 years ago, but I'm back to it again) why I can't give up being self-destructive in some way. Maybe I need chaos too. I don't think I have cut since January (although I claw at the back of my neck still when mad or frustrated - did that yesterday), but there is always something. I can trade in one method of self-destruction for another one. Bad eating habits is my usual alternate - mostly binging on chocolate and then not eating for a couple of days afterwards, or just perpetually keeping my caloric intake as low as I can. It's really a good thing that I don't consider alcohol or other substances an acceptable one for me, or I'd be lost in that instantly. Lately I'm exercising 3-5 times per day, and pushing myself beyond my limits. How long before I start to find that too healthy and move on to something else? Maybe chaos is addictive.
Wendy

<font color=orange>"They accused us of suppressing freedom of expression. This was a lie and we could not let them publish it." ... from the Director of Censorship...

</font color=orange>

[Zenobia]

Wendy,
I think I would make a good alcoholic. When I do drink I can't drink just one glass, I have to reach the stage of drunkeness that makes me not care. I decided long ago that I must be careful when it comes to alcohol.

Anerexia is out of the question but I do edge over to the area of compulsive eating and feel guilt after a binge. But I have always been been able to pull out of it. Then I go into a compulsive healthfood craze. It concerns me when I hear people talk about their difficulties with food because I have ridden the edge of that world, just enough to get an empathy for just how difficult it must be to need to excercise, to need to eat, to want to throw up (I have sat before the toilet with that intent, but a previous training has severely reduced the gag reflex so I was unsuccessful, grr), and the desire to starve one's self. I count my blessings that I have only flirted with the idea and have never been drawn into it. You know, I have absolutely no idea where I was going with this...

Oh yeah methods of self destruction. I have been watching the "normal" people over the years with fascination because they are living these so called "normal" lives without being aware of just how close the to well they are. We have our list of things that we know we do that are self destructive. We have our lists of things we do that we know are not a healthy way to be living. These people have no clue. I see them fumbling along just as poorly as we do, doing just as dumb of stuff. I have to wonder why we are on this side of the fence and they are on that side. I know some of it is chemical. I know some of it is genetic. But I have got to wonder just how difficult it would be to climb that fence and join them in their stupidity and just leave this stuff behind. Then I realize I don't want to live in ignorance like they do but would rather figure out what it is we can do to make things less destructive and more constructive. Jeez, I am all over the place today. Please forgive me for my path of thinking. I just can't seem to focus on what idea it was that I started the response with. I hate it when this happens.
Carrie

<font color=green>But the implicit and usually unconscious bargain we make with ourselves is that, yes, we want to be healed, we want to be made whole, we're willing to go some distance, but we're not willing to question the fundamental assumptions upon which our way of life has been built, both personally and societally.--Bill Plotkin, Soulcraft

[valbends]

I must say that I completely agree with that last paragraph... everyone is always making mistakes, like i only hate myself because I see those mistakes. But I don't want that ignorance.... I like figuring out how to make things better... you're right on!

Through each others weaknesses we find comfort.

[Rapunzel]

Carrie,

That is a good point. At least we know what we are doing - other people may not. Can I borrow that?
Wendy

<font color=orange>"They accused us of suppressing freedom of expression. This was a lie and we could not let them publish it." ... from the Director of Censorship...

</font color=orange>

[Zenobia]

Rapunzel, you are always welcome to borrow anything I say...of course you have to pay me royalties. Ha ha.

Val,
You said something that clicked for me--what if that fence that seperates us from the "norms" is self hate? We become angry about our mistakes because we have been taught that we have to be perfect, or that we can never be good enough, or that our mistakes will be used against us. Could that be the case?
Carrie

<font color=green>But the implicit and usually unconscious bargain we make with ourselves is that, yes, we want to be healed, we want to be made whole, we're willing to go some distance, but we're not willing to question the fundamental assumptions upon which our way of life has been built, both personally and societally.--Bill Plotkin, Soulcraft