Please educate me on brain gender

For the record, I am straight, but not insensitive to orientation and gender issues. My brother is gay, and one of my daughters is bi. I am hoping against hope that this discussion doesn't turn ugly. If it does, I would just as soon drop it, rather than have a fight break out.

My daughter (who has just joined PC but to my knowledge hasn't posted yet, and I'll be sure and point her to this thread) tends to choose friends primarily among non-surgical transgender people, usually with serious psychiatric diagnoses as well. Most of these friends also tend to be homeless or near homeless, I believe due to those mental health problems. (I have my own issues, or else I wouldn't be posting at PsychCentral, but she says I'm the most "normal" person she knows! And I say that's part of her problem, she needs to associate with healthier people, but that's another topic.)

I like to be respectful, but I have to say it frustrates me to constantly be getting the gender wrong. Among my daughter's friends, it seems that those with the female parts are "he," while those with the male parts are "she"--including the one who has impregnated at least three women! Confusing, confusing. I don't want to automatically start reversing the gender when speaking about her friends. One day I might say "he" about a friend with a female body, and it might turn out that no, this one actually is female, and should be called "she."

Daughter tells me that it's the brain, not the anatomy, that decides gender. Male brains are different from female brains, to such a fundamental degree that it even overrides the X and Y chromosomes in determining who is "he" and who is "she." This is what I have trouble accepting. It seems to me that there would be only a short hop from "the sexes have different brains" to "the sexes are not equals." The next logical step is, "Because men and women have different brains, they should not work at the same jobs. Straight women be firefighters? No, they don't have the proper brain for it. Straight men be nurses? No, same answer." Of course this is silly. A straight woman with a female brain has every right to be a firefighter, a soldier, a truck driver, a construction worker, or anything she wants to be. Ditto for straight men with male brains. Nothing says they can't be nurses, kindergarten teachers, cosmetologists, florists, secretaries, or whatever.

Please understand I am not trying to argue against transgender rights. I will address a person by whatever terms that person wishes, and call them by whatever first name they choose. It's the "different brain" thing I don't get. How can the brains be so vitally different, without then pigeonholing the sexes into predetermined roles?

It's not necessarily that the two brains are massively different, but how that brain identifies itself. Think about sexuality, perhaps. A straight man and a gay man might have perfectly identical brains other than this, but something is obviously different to allow one brain attraction to women and the other men. No one really knows whether this is a genetic tweak, an anatomical difference, chemical difference, or something we can't detect. Having said that, I think people do see how the male brain works or thinks differently to the female brain a lot of the time although a lot of this might be stereotyping or generalising and of course there are always exceptions.

When she says that it is the brain that decides, perhaps she's not talking about a physical anatomical difference, she's talking about the brain's ability to identify with female, male or other as opposed to the body's physical state. Gender is between the ears, sex is between the legs. Imagine perhaps that you wake up tomorrow in the body of a man. Do you now feel like a man because your body is male? Probably not. So your brain has its own idea of what your gender is which, for whatever reason, does not match what is on the outside. It isn't necessarily stereotypes- as you say, a woman can do typically male jobs and be a "tomboy" but still identify solidly as female, or a man can be flamboyantly feminine and like typically female things while identifying solidly as male. It's just that sometimes people know something isn't right and feel inside their souls that they were meant to be something else. A gut feeling. Again, no one knows why this happens, although there may be many theories. It may not make "sense" or be "normal", but then again so many things in humankind and the world don't- non-heterosexuality, genetic disorders, etc. It just happens.
As an aside, as far as memory serves, X and Y chromosomes are not the only part of our DNA that determines our physical sex, there are in fact a few different pieces that all come together and are usually in agreement but occasionally I believe you can get XX males and XY females if the other parts are in agreement on the opposite but this is rare. Perhaps something like this can result in the development of a different brain to physical sex.

Basically, your daughter is placing a higher value on this brain gender than on physical sex. I don't know how well she explained it but I hope I haven't confused you too much although I might well have done. I understand your wariness about using the wrong pronouns. I admit I find it painful when people use the pronouns of my biosex but I guess I don't expect people to be psychic.

I'll stop now I think, lol

Agree with your analysis about occupational potential; gender does not necessarily restrict people from certain jobs.

Without getting into an anatomical discussion, I will just say that I believe that "brains/personalities/genders" are on a continuum of sorts. The most masculine appearing males, for example NFL football players, may very well have a "feminine" side of their nature. Some, more than others. The most feminine of ballerinas may very well have masculine interests. I do not know why this exists except that the Creator allows it, but I do believe it exists. I do not believe there are all black and white brain situations.

Sad to say, we just don't yet know enough about the human brain and its development to be able to know with certainty exactly why people behave sexually in all the different ways they do. In fact, we're not even very far from square one in this regard. It's not that there's something special about gender subjects. We're not very far from square one on all kinds of topics relating to the brain.

I know it's terribly frustrating to be told we just don't have answers to certain questions, only guesses. That's something most of us simply don't want to hear. Particularly when those questions are central to our own lives. But the amount of wrangling and argument that goes on about those questions involves us in all kinds of hostility and ill-feeling that really is not only wasted effort but is deleterious to our emotional lives.

I don't know if or when the following statement will ever be untrue: the acceptance of some degree of ignorance, whether temporary or permanent, is one of the absolute requirements of real personal peace for all human beings. There always have been and always will be large and important unresolved issues for people of all kinds. And all we can do is what we do now: continue to nibble away scientifically until we do have real answers to those issues that can ultimately be resolved.

So, to LovebirdsFlying and all other interested folk I offer this observation: Don't set your heart on knowing all the answers to issues of sexuality. If you do you will only fret yourselves into a permanent misery that you can avoid by trying to accept the state of uncertainty that is the lot of all people in all times and places, even considering the many advances made by science. Take care.

I don't think I'm wrong in saying there has been a lot more research into the feminine and masculine aspects of the brain in sexuality (for example, comparing how gay men perform tasks or puzzles with how straight women do the same task, or vice versa for gay women/straight men) than about transgender people and their brains.

Yes, Pandoren, you're probably right. But as of today, regardless of how much research has been done, we don't have final answers for either homosexuality or transgenderism. Far from it. But at some time in the future we'll have those answers. We'll be able then to understand, fully, all kinds of things for which we have only bits and pieces of knowledge today, some of which will be discredited in the future.

Scientific research is funny that way. Some research conclusions are proven true by succeeding research, some research conclusions go by the board. Which are reliable? Even scientists don't know until after quite some time, and many more experiments. It's a slow and grinding process. Take care!

Wishing for understanding is normal. I don't think there's a hard and fast explanation yet, as has been stated.

Educating yourself regarding the subject would be helpful. Listening to your child and her friends will be helpful, too.

I can only imagine how tough it can be to keep up with "who is who"! Perhaps a list on the frig and ask your daughter's friends to help you with it. Asking them for help in a genuine way can offer much respect and love.

In a way I wonder if finding answers is a good idea! What if we found the cause of homosexuality and it could be treated or prevented with an injection during pregnancy or a pill when you show the first signs? Having said that though, if you ended up straight because your mother had an injection, you'd be none the wiser.

I'll bet you serious money, Pandoren, that whatever the truth may be, it won't be simple enough for that kind of solution. Take care.

interesting, lovebirds. we ie our generations put all this time and effort into erasing the differences between the sexes, and now they want to reclaim them, but with a twist - it's mix and match, sex and gender. or all or none of the above. Continuous Improvement!

Just because we talk about it now doesn't mean it never existed before, just that either you knew you couldn't talk about it or had no idea that the concept existed outside of your own head. Now we know what transgender and non-binary genders are and we can say "that sounds like me" rather than wonder if we are going to be medicated by butcherous doctors or subjected to an exorcism.

There's a lot yet to be understood--even about what questions need to be asked by the science community.

If you can take the individuals as they come & be willing to get to know them as they are, I think everyone can be fine. We've talked before about about respect, and that always figures into human equations.

Take care.

Thinking about the OP's original post, perhaps you could explain your concern to your daughter and perhaps if she's open about it ask her to pre-warn you of the gender of the person you are addressing, or have some kind of secret signal between you so that you know what to say?

I still think a list or "cheat sheet", if you will, would be handy. Doing the list with your daughter could be helpful for understanding.

A friend of mine is embracing his (bio her) masculinity. I still have a hard time with the pronoun change. He's very understanding. Change is difficult no matter what side of the glass you're on.

I applaud you for your courage to explore this subject, the easy way out would be to turn away. You're not.

Thanks everyone. No time now, but I wanted to add, I know some people who were born with traits of either, for example a man who was born with both female and male parts. He's in his 60's and not healthy. Back then, all they did in a case like that was construct a girl. It was easiest. He was raised as a girl, but even without testicles became a man at puberty. I have no trouble seeing him as a man, although he isn't healthy enough for surgery to replace what they took from him. He has a beard and a deep voice, looks and sounds like a man. My daughter's friends aren't so obvious.

To be honest, to a degree I think this is a fad going around. I've found quite a few blogs of people who say they are trans, but generally have no intention of every doing hormones/top surgery/bottom surgery. Or they say they will, but they never get around to it. I've done enough searching to know that the people who really feel like they are the wrong gender will go to great lengths to get their hands on hormone treatment etc. (I watched a video of a guy who went to the black market to get the testosterone his doctor prescribed for a lower price so it was affordable.) I've even recently read about someone who lives on the line of poverty who has started to pursue therapy in order to start hormone treatment/top surgery at the least. If there is a minimum amount of societal factors around you (parents, loved ones, friends) who don't see this as a problem with your gender identity then it should be even easier for you to pursue treatment to get the necessary things done so you feel comfortable in your own skin. I watched a documentary on this where people would even leave their home country and go elsewhere to get the surgery done, spending all of their savings to do so.

((I'm referring to more modern times as opposed to in the past where many of these surgeries and treatments were much harder to come by))

In a way, I can see this as an empowering act for some of the people. Under normal circumstances it isn't as acceptable for a man to be so feminine, and although there is a double standard for women, its not encouraged for women to dress or act 'manly.' I know that there is a surge of 'genderqueer' too, where the person doesn't identify as male or female and won't use gender specific pronouns, will use opposite pronouns or will use both male and female pronouns when being referred to.

But now days gender identification has become complicated.

I also realize that my post may make me sound pretty close minded about the whole thing. I don't mean to offend.

I sort of understand part of this. I always thought it was quite nonsense to raise girls and boys so differently, and to separate them so much in society. I thought your own wishes what you want to be should not be stopped because of your gender. I still have that opinion.

Being sort of transgendered myself, I started to see a conflict here. If I really didn't feel like the body I was born into, does that make my idea of men and women being equal void? It could seem so.

I solved it by thinking gender identity has nothing to do with gender roles (unless you chose to go into a role or happen to be more girly or manly). What gender I feel I am, does not state there is the kind of a difference between men and women to claim men are fit for one thing and women another. It is just what you know you are. Without anything attached to it.

I do think being transgendered actually means you have a sort of different brain. Something up there must tell you what kind you are.

There are varying degrees to everything. Many different factors come into play when someone makes a decision about anything. All of this is true regarding the original post and any other opinions that have surfaced.

I don't pretend to understand all things at all times and yes, I do have strong convictions about many things. I try to respect others and the path they walk in life. Good people are good people, gender not withstanding.

I just wanted to add to Confusedinomicon that transgender =/= transsexual. You are referring to people who have gender dysphoria, which not all trans people do. There are reasons why some trans people do not persue a transition- for example, changing their physical appearance (cutting/growing hair, padding or binding, gender appropriate clothing etc) is enough to satisfy any dysphoria, or they feel comfortable enough with a change of pronouns and acceptance, or they can't afford more physical treatments, they are scared of undergoing surgery and see it as disproportional to the level of dysphoria that they have, or feel that surgery or hormones will not have the desired effect (phalloplasty, for example, is a complicated and lengthy procedure that leaves extensive scarring on the body and the person may fear that the end result will not look or work properly) so they might as well stay in the body they were born with. Not going insane to grab and change does not mean a person is a liar or that their internal feelings are any less valid.

I didn't know that. I guess I always assumed transgender was the same as transsexual.

Sorry.

Sure there could be a bit of a fad in this. But also it could be that you see a broader spectrum. If you think about it, maybe most people have a little of the other gender in them. Say "normal" women are 95 % female and 5 % male. So a transgender as you normally see them are to the biggest part the opposite of their biological gender. Those often will go very far reaching the goal getting another body.

But then there are other mixes, and I know it further upsets the gender binary people have. If someone in a female body feels they are 75 % male only, will he go through the pain and effort the treatment actually is? His gender dysphoria is probably less than the one feeling next to 100 % male. So then maybe the gender dysphoria is simply not bad enough to want to cut up your body.

Sure would be nice waking up in a body I could relate to and call my own. But since my gender identity is quite androgynous, first of all I doubt a doc would make me the way I see myself. Second, since I'm not a real extreme to one side, I'd rather continue being dysphoric than to go under the knife. I dissociate away from my body instead. Only time I feel really, really bad is in the shower, but I can manage I guess.

All I know is that I'm not a fake.

God I just hate when I try to write something while others are posting before me and saying things in a much better way!

Now can someone please tell me the difference between transgender and transsexual?

I had thought they were the same too.

Oh, and on rigid gender roles, I think Jean Auel's Earth's Children book series is where I got the notion that different brains meant different functions. In that series, it is explained that the Neanderthal men and women have very different brains from each other, especially the part that handles memories. It isn't quite "instinct," but it isn't far from it. Therefore, men cannot do women's work, and women cannot do men's work. Not that it is forbidden so much as it is impossible--men don't cook, not because they refuse to, but because they simply cannot learn to. They don't have the brains for it. But then some taboos do end up coming into play. For example, since only men are able to hunt, girls and women are not allowed to touch a weapon, or a tool that would be used to make a weapon. The Neanderthals don't understand why this Cro-Magnon girl even has the desire to hunt, since it wouldn't occur to a Neanderthal woman. I think the book does state that if by chance a girl is born with a memory for hunting, it dies out quickly due to lack of stimulation.

Among the more advanced Cro-Magnons, both sexes can learn all jobs. They'll have men and women hunting side by side, and then going home and cooking their kill together. Homosexuals and transgenders exist among the Cro-Magnons, but not among the Neanderthals.

So this must be where I formed the idea that if men and women have different brains, they'd be locked into rigid roles.

Transgender = someone who identifies as a different mental gender than their physical sex.

Transsexual = someone who is, has or wants to physically transition.

Not all transgender people are also transsexual