Question for the guys

I just wanted to add a good personality outweighs looks. Looks fade in time anyway. A good heart never does.

This thread makes me sad, because you're missing something really important.

These things are attractive: self-confidence and self-respect. The way to attract a good man is not to fit some idea of physical perfection, but to be happy with yourself, to think more about what kind of guy you want and what would make you happy than about who is willing to have you.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and it's not just governed by looks. If you feel insecure or unworthy, people will sense that. Worry about what you want, and let other people make up their own minds about you.

Court(That's a WHOLE lot more polite and well-mannered than "OP" don't you think?),

Only on PC can you ask a question to the guys and get attacked by a high-jacking, all-knowing female.

To your original questions:

Looks are the bait, personality is the hook.

Good looks will get a guys attention but only hold it if there is personality to add. If the initial attraction of "good looks" is not there, it's not usually a long-term deal breaker. It just makes things a little tougher for her. Perseverance and a great personality can alter a man's first impression of "pretty".

I can think of plenty of celebrities who are not what most people consider "pretty" but after time become "beautiful' and attractive. I'm sure you could think of a person or 2 about who you have said "how the heck are they considered xyz". Then after a while, you find yourself saying, "Hey, they're kinda cool".

Ultimately, there are people out there who are all about looks but if the only thing a guy needs is the pretty external shell, he's probably not a guy you'd want anything to do with anyway.

To be fair Bighands, I don't think there was any sort of malice involved on either part. I think there was just a sort of misunderstanding. It happens, and as things were patched up, no harm no foul, right? No need to throw fuel on the embers.

Dear Courtney,

I have found, the initial attraction I have for a woman, morphs, as I experience her. Sometimes, a woman who originally turned my head, doesn't look so good anymore, as I get to know her. Other times, a woman, I initially barely noticed, enchants me over time. It is really, all about the total being and how they present themselves.

I find it difficult, to find a woman unattractive solely on her physical attributes. Concomitantly, I find it difficult, to find a woman attractive solely on her physical attributes. A warm smile, and a pleasant, respectful disposition, go a long way to make any woman attractive. Obnoxious, arrogant, disrespectful, self involved behavior, can make any woman ugly.

Lastly, I'm sure you have heard the phrase, "she has a nice personality", said in mitigation of a woman who is not considered particularly attractive. These women, generally don't have a nice personality, i.e., they don't love or admire themselves for who they are. They don't respect themselves. If they truly had a nice personality, they would be attractive. Physically, they are not attractive enough to get by on their appearance alone, i.e., at least in the short term.

Maybe, the best single word to describe a woman, or a man, in an overall, positive sense, i.e., personality and appearance, is charming.

Courtney, you are charming!

Larry

CourtKnee,

You are incorrect believing that every girl has wants in regards to her looks, even if she does not pursue those wants in practice. I have never wanted my complexion to be any different from what it is, my nose to have any shape or size different from what I have, or any other changes to my face.

I would like to be a bit skinnier, now that I have gained weight over the last few years, but my want to be skinnier is objective and I stay in touch with reality - the BMI figure is too high. The BMI figure is reality.

That's a great post and I agree with almost all of it. And instead of charm or personality I'd replace depth of character and overall warmth as being the attributes that I find appealing.
IMO though, like attracts like. If someone bases their appeal on looks they will probably end up with a partner who bases his/her appeal on looks. One could substitute whatever one finds is appealing and that would also hold true.

There was no misunderstanding. There was a faux pas (to the extent to which inaction can be termed a "faux pas"), which was pointed out and quickly corrected.

Despite what others tell me I do not think that looks are of any significance in a relationship or even for attraction. I will admit that I do find tallish and curvy women attractive, although to be honest a nice voice is what really turns me on, but looks don’t factor into a relationship for me. What is really important to me has nothing to do with looks – kindness, respect, being loved, being listened to, etc. – and I have met many twisted women that were physically attractive.

Oh, Bighands,

In is INDEED a WHOLE lot more polite!

And the intended pun (intended, it seems...) in the wordplay on COURT in the name / COURTEOUS as a quaint adjective /COURT A WOMAN is precious.

Your next step will be to apply your politeness and courteousness to everybody on the forum and not to select posters.

I am sure that it won't be long before you take that crucial next step.

You have such keen vision when looking everywhere except in the mirror.

Have a wonderful day!

Wow isn't a word I like to use but... how did this thread get so ****ed up?
Courtney had no obligation to thank anyone. None of us do.
Presumptions, assumptions, and a thread hijack that became an over the top personal attack on someone's perceived breach of manners sounds like a pretty clear cut case of the pot calling the kettle black as far as manners go. If questioning the motives and intent of threads was acceptable practice then we'd have a fertile delta over in the sex forum

The reason that accepting compliments with grace endears you to others is partly due to the fact that such graceful acceptance is NOT obligatory - there is no mandate or rule from the site administration on using the THANKS button. The site administration only makes the button available to those who have a genuine desire to appreciate the time, kindness, and effort of others.

Given that Courtney reacted so speedily, I have no doubt that she does have the genuine desire to appreciate other people's time, kindness, and effort.

I wasn't upset that she didn't say thanks. Yes it is polite to say thanks for a compliment. From her original post it didn't sound like she was fishing for a compliment. She just asked would guys date someone they were not attracted too. The fact that she took her picture down after some comments were made, sounds like she is trying to gather an opinion about what the opposite sex values. I think for a lot of us, especially those who have not had a lot of relationship it is something we don't know. While everyone is different, there is usually a majority that has an opinion. For instance, being physically fit is usually preferred to those who are not. I myself don't find myself attractive, but I try not to show my insecurities, and talk about how I feel about myself. Being confident and comfortable about yourself, is generally preferred to not, But everyone is different, and we all have different values, and things we find attractive about another person.

To support Court Knee. Her original post was very simple and first off she was looking for opinions from men. I didn't see her asking for anyone to give opinions on "her looks" or give links to her profile. Probably she felt this was going to far for her comfort and I understand that. Her question is a legitimate one in this day of perfection. I also think you received some very nice posts from some men here.

my lighthearted contribution to the thread - Jimmy Soul - If You Want To Be Happy





If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

A pretty woman makes her husband look small
And very often causes his downfall
As soon as he marries her then she starts
To do the things that will break his heart

But if you make an ugly woman your wife
you'll be happy for the rest of your life
An ugly woman cooks meals on time
And she'll always give you peace of mind

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

Sax solo

Don't let your friends say you have no taste
Go ahead and marry anyway
Though her face is ugly, her eyes don't match
Take it from me, she's a better catch

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

Spoken:
Say man!
Hey baby!
I saw your wife the other day!
Yeah?
Yeah, an' she's ug-leeee!
Yeah, she's ugly, but she sure can cook, baby!
Yeah, alright!

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

The contribution is brilliant.

Is it that lighthearted (as in "non serious")?

Not necessarily. It might or might not be, depending on the context.

Many years ago I was a graduate student in one of the most boring quantitative disciplines. A couple of times a year there were departmental get-togethers, planned and orchestrated by the department's administrative staff.

The get-togethers included family and SO's. This way, I got to meet the wives of the male members of the faculty.

The wives of many of the faculty members were very very boring. And not just in that they had plain looks - no, a woman can be the life of the party with plain looks, because the personality and charisma are all it takes. They were boring throughout, just positively boring with no respite.

I shared this observation with somebody I was on friendly terms with, with a big question mark at the end.

He said: "This is because the faculty members are RATIONAL". Being rational (and very very quantitative, so they computed the risks and benefits of their decisions) has led them to choose boring women in an effort to minimize the risk of other men's paying attention to their chosen wives.

Rational? Rational. And, agrees with the song.

To be fair, though, the male members of the faculty were also very very boring (looks and the rest - boring in everything), so it is possible that they just could not do better for themselves.

Thank you for the replies everyone. I appreciate all of the input I received. If anything, I’ve learned to be careful in the wording of my questions as someone will always find a way to twist your own words into something it was never meant to be. I just want to apologize for my thread turning into the disaster it has. I am sorry for the “drama” it’s caused. I originally intended to ignore this as the responses I were getting were not answering the question I asked but rather addressing an issue another member made this post into which I found upsetting. However, it seems to have gotten carried away and in-between the chaos there actually are some really great responses that answer MY question that I don’t want to ignore. So, I’d like to say “thanks” for all of those answers, I hope that my not hitting the actual “thanks button” doesn’t make me seem any less appreciative. I mean being thankful comes from within anyway. Just because a person actually hits the thanks button really doesn’t mean they are thankful, it just means they know how to hit a button.


________________________________

I’ve thought about the responses on here quite a bit and as much as I wanted to “bite my tongue” I feel the need to say a few things.

Hamster, you attempt to convince me that girls don’t wish for or want something different than what they have (such as a girl with green eyes wishing for blue eyes or a girl who is short wanting to be taller) by using yourself as an example.

“You are incorrect believing that every girl has wants in regards to her looks, even if she does not pursue those wants in practice. I have never wanted my complexion to be any different from what it is, my nose to have any shape or size different from what I have, or any other changes to my face.”

However, you say that you would like to be skinnier now.

“I would like to be a bit skinnier, now that I have gained weight over the last few years”

Explain to me why you wanting to be skinnier is different than a girl wanting longer hair?

Let’s get hypothetical here: I have blue eyes, I could love having blue eyes but still want to have brown eyes. I am not going to ever have brown eyes nor buy brown contacts to make my blue eyes look brown. They will always be blue and I am perfectly fine with that. However, I could still wish that I had brown eyes like Carrie Underwood has. It’s just a harmless desire and that does not make me out of touch with reality. In fact it shows I am in touch with reality as I accept I have blue eyes and acknowledge that changing them is unrealistic. (None of this is true, fyi.) I see this as being no different than a person driving a minivan (a mother with 4 kids perhaps) wishing they could drive a convertible. Realistically, the car just wouldn’t work for the family as the main form of transportation. However, she can still have that desire for it and just not act on it by going out and trading in her minivan for one.

Your reasoning for your desire to be skinny being okay and mine not being okay:

“my want to be skinnier is objective and I stay in touch with reality - the BMI figure is too high. The BMI figure is reality.”

That is understandable. You are overweight; you should lose weight. However, just because my BMI is not too high doesn’t make my desire to lose weight wrong if I am going about it in a healthy way with healthy intentions and understand that I do not need to lose much weight. What about a woman that goes tanning? She may have pale skin and wish to be a bit tanner. Technically there is nothing wrong with her skin tone other than her wishing it was tanner. Does going tanning make her out of touch with reality? Is it really your place to decide that her wanting to be tan is not objectively in need of happening? If she wants to be tanner, pays to go tanning, and is careful to not go overboard then why does it matter?

“No. If you make the assessment that you want to be skinny while you are objectively not in need of being skinnier, you are still wrong.”

Like I said, sometimes women want to lose weight despite being at what is considered a healthy weight for their height. Sometimes we have events to go to such as a wedding where toning up or losing the 5lbs of love handles will make the dress look so much better. It’s not unhealthy, it’s not unrealistic. There is nothing wrong with wanting to look your best. According to you, however, saying so makes me “unable to form an objective assessment.” I strongly disagree.

Your next statement of concern,

“Plus, by posting the picture and soliciting male opinion on the ugliness, you probably believed the their opinion on your looks is somewhat more important than yours.”

“The point remains that your profile, at the time of OP, had your picture (and that of your really cute dog). That, as a fact, speaks more to your intentions than your words do. My posting a link to your profile page, which, within the site, is public, is of no consequence. If you did not want males to look at the picture, you should not have had it up AT THE TIME of posting.”

I don’t even know where to begin with this one. First, considering the fact that my post never mentioned me or my looks your conclusion that I believe male opinions of my looks are more important than my own opinion on my looks is clearly misplaced. I am not sure how you can infer that based on my words. You’ve turned this entire thread into something it’s not.

My original post had nothing to do with “soliciting male opinion on [my] ugliness”, my question was asking what matters more to men (key word being men!)…looks or personality. Yes, I had a profile picture of myself up at the time I posted this question. The picture was up long before I posted this question, however. I didn’t post the picture in conjunction with positing this question in the hopes that the men would throw compliments my way. You took it upon yourself to post the link to my profile picture here in the thread. While that isn’t wrong of you because as you pointed out: it’s a psych central link that anyone on the website is capable of viewing; it was unnecessary as it had nothing to do with my question. Your posting that link only helped feed your belief that the question was posted in attempt to gain some sort of solicitation from the male members. I had a reason for making it clear that I was looking for male opinions because you’ve clearly demonstrated that women think incredibly different than men do. I asked for male opinions and you jumped right in and based off your incredibly detailed posts regarding your sex life (I don’t get how you can even consider jumping down my throat for this post when you post about your masturbation issues regularly) I’m fairly certain you are not a man.
When I tried to explain to you my reason for posting my thread (why do I need to even defend myself to you? I don’t) you completely took it in another direction.

“If you want to be extra precise, though, you need to rephrase the question - you need to ask how guys react to women who are not objectively ugly but perceive themselves as ugly.”

No. That is not what I needed to ask. I asked what I needed to ask exactly the way that I wanted to ask it. I wanted to know what matters more to guys, looks or personality. Would a man date a woman who is not a “ten” on the looks scale but is a “ten” on the personality scale or does physical attraction really matter more? My question was asked the way I wanted to ask it. The way you claim I need to ask the question actually completely changes the question being asked. How you can’t see that is not clear to me.

Then, in attempt to answer your version of my question you say:

“If I were to imagine myself in the position of a hypothetical guy dealing with such a woman, I would leave immediately, because the neediness that would come from this sort of arrangement would not be something that I would look forward to suffering through.”

And yet you were so concerned with the kindness of BigHands? I’m sorry what number husband are you on? Three? Four?

"Adam's compliment remains unacknowledged by you, so you clearly have a really interesting and unusual view of tact, privacy, how to manifest one's intentions properly, and other such matters that are not in any way related to looks."

Adam’s compliment was acknowledged via PM as the point of my thread was not about MY looks and I was trying to keep the focus off of them despite your every attempt to keep the focus on me. Like I said earlier, does hitting the “thanks” button really make a person thankful? It’s the whole don’t judge a book by its cover concept.

Yes, I realize that everything I am writing is probably coming across a little to blunt and rude. I am sorry but when the statements you’ve made have been so far off and… mean; how else am I supposed to reply? I tried being kind to you and yet you make such blatant statements inferring that my posts are a waste of time. I didn’t make you respond, it was your choice. You clearly wanted to respond as you kept on doing so even after making it evident that you didn’t like anything I had to say.

“You do not need to respond to me - since I already wasted my time trying to show to you that you have nothing to worry about (no, girls who do not worry about their looks do not waste their time on such highly theoretical pursuits as "I started this thread with the genuine intention of seeking a general consensus from the males on what matters more looks vs personality."”

“even in the very unlikely scenario that someone would genuinely seek a general consensus on what in her mind appears to be a binary issue between personality and looks, she would use the poll functionality for voting - someone with your 5-year tenure on the board must be aware of how polls are posted and that people seekinggeneral consensus, as a rule, post polls) - I do not intend to waste any more time on you.”

Yes, I have been a member for 5 years. I joined when I was 14 and dealing with issues too big for me to even understand at the time. I used this website for support regularly at that time but then did not use it again for years until just recently. My point is that despite being a member for so long I have no idea what you’re talking about with posting polls. Don’t assume everyone should just know something because YOU know it. Regardless, I would have still posted my question the exact way that I did. So, I am terribly sorry to have wasted so much of your precious time here when you could have been using it to masturbate in your partner’s arms some more or something equally as important.

Judge me as a rude, inconsiderate, or even out of touch with reality if you want to because I just don’t care tonight. By doing so what kind of person does that make you anyway? I guess I should expect an occasional response or two like yours given the name of the website after all but in the words of someone really cool, “if jumping to conclusions was an Olympic event she would be world-class and hijacking your thread was ill-mannered and presumptuous.” All I can say is you are far from classy but I have no doubt you will have an intelligent, wise, and likely controversial response for me in no time. I know you won’t listen to anything I said or take any of it to heart, but I said it for myself more than I did for you. I shouldn’t have to feel bad for asking a question just because it was turned into something else.

To everyone else, I am incredibly sorry for causing such a dramatic scene. I appreciate all of the responses I received and am still reflecting on your answers. I will get back to you.

That is true - I used myself as an example, in a narrowly-targeted effort to dissuade you from believing that ALL girls have wants. One exception is enough to negate the claim about ALL. I am sure I am not the only exception though.

So, on eye color: I have green eyes and I like having green eyes. I do sometimes find brown eyes enthralling, but that does not make me wish for brown eyes. I just appreciate the beauty of brown eyes as an observer. Similarly with straight hair or anything else. I like my curly hair, and that does not prevent me from appreciating the beauty of women who have straight hair.

Nor do I see how someone's blue eyes could make me wish for blue eyes. It is a little different with my wanting to be skinnier, because with that, I simply want my old figure back. It is still mine, but it is in the past. I have never wanted anybody else's figure. As an observer, I sometimes find myself enthralled by East Indian women who have very narrow wastlines and wide hips - these women happen to move their bodies in an exceptionally graceful manner. I find the way they carry themselves extremely attractive, but I still do no wish for their figures.

Hi Courtney,

To be absolutely frank, if I'm just looking for casual sex or something purely physical, then looks matter and personality just has to be decent enough. However, if it's about an actual relationship, then feeling always develop out of how much I like someone and looks are the icing on the cake.

I think looks come into play for attraction to a certain degree, but as cliche as it is, if I actually like someone it's not because of looks.

On the American tradition of losing weight for the purposes of fitting into a wedding dress. Very bad and dangerous on many levels, in both the short run and the long run. Very bad and dangerous. If you need to look better in a dress and are of the belief that losing 5 lbs would achieve the desired outcome for you, you are better off buying shape wear (of which there exists a wide array of options) that would do the job, do the job better (by making you look 10 lbs skinnier, and not 5 lbs skinnier), do the job in an instant, and not cause any long-term harm.

Also, trash magazines for women that perpetuate the tradition of wanting to lose a little weight in order to fit into a dress (I am not old enough to know if they started the tradition, but I am old enough to observe that they are perpetuating it) have been widely unsuccessful in the past 20 years (I have never read such magazines, but I have stared at their cover pages for lack of anything better to do when waiting in line at grocery stores). How do I know? Well, every next issue has a new diet advertised on the cover. Clearly, the previous diets must have been unsuccessful.

On a more serious note, research has found that most diets are unsuccessful in the long run.

In other words, if you believe that you have the power to lose weight at will, you need to shed this illusion. You might not have the power - everybody would be at her desired weight otherwise. You might be able to lose the weight for a bit and then regain it back and possibly regain more. It is very difficult to reset the set point weight, and, for you, it would be not only very difficult but completely unnecessary.

If you are healthy weight, you should try to keep that weight and avoid unnecessary weight fluctuations. There are weight fluctuations that are non-optional - pregnancy is the main source of such weight fluctuations. You cannot avoid them if you want to have children. But you CAN avoid optional weight fluctuations, and avoiding optional weight fluctuations would give you about 20-25 benefits one can immediately think of. Something has come up in my personal life so I now need to write long letters with a short deadline, and thus will not be able to list the 20-25 benefits of keeping your normal weight constant, but I will give you one reason which should be enough to persuade you to become happy with your weight (which is normal, both per the picture and per your description).

The shape of your bust.

Every weight fluctuation can affect the shape of your bust negatively.

I assume you care about the shape of your bust. Then, you need to limit weight fluctuations to the non-optional weight fluctuations of pregnancy.

Moreover, I have read about weight fluctuations that cause stretch marks both on the breasts and on other areas of the body. There appears to be some predisposition to stretch marks - I am lucky and I do not have them, even though the last baby was born at 9 lbs and I gained too much weight while pregnant with her and did not exercise while being so hugely pregnant - but some women get them even without pregnancies.

Are stretch marks to taut skin as blue eyes to brown eyes?

NO.

Blue eyes are good in their own way and brown eyes are good in their own way, but stretch marks are just plain bad.

So why risk such consequences without need?

To follow the tradition of coming up with puns related to your userid, I will say that you are COURTing disaster by thinking of losing weight while not having any need to do so.

Lastly, if you just want to develop some healthi-er habits (the picture that you posted was with a very cute huge dog, so, since dogs of that size must need a lot of walking, you must already have a good walking or running routine), do not set weight goals (you talked about losing 5 lbs). You do not have control over the weight. You cannot control how the body would respond. Hence, you should not set goals in terms of weight. You CAN control your behavior, so you can set goals in terms of, say, running for 30 minutes daily. For more,

SMART criteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Finally, if you do indeed think of losing weight, and, this way, have some practical concern in mind besides the theoretical concern of getting consensus opinion from males on the completely hypothetical issue of dating an ugly girl who has a great personality to compensate for the lacking looks, you should obtain a consensus opinion. Open a new thread on this forum asking males to opine on whether you need to lose weight (I won't even try to predict the outcome of your polling...). Open another thread on the eating disorders forum asking if anybody has started with something as "innocent" as trying to lose a few pounds without objective need, but then ended up with a full-blown disorder (I do not know the answer, but it would be worth it to find out). Just post a different profile picture, for two reasons: 1) the dog on the original picture was SO cute that he/she distracted me from looking just at you; 2) you were sitting on the porch on the original picture, and while there was enough of the silhouette of the body visible to say that you are clearly not fat and have a good physical shape, a standing picture would give a better opportunity to give you feedback on your idea of losing weight.

And yes, your plan to phrase your posts better is great. Not just because clear phrasing would remove the possibility that malicious people would twist your words, but also because benevolent people would be better placed to advise you. Say, on your thread about saying "yes" to sex, you actually apologized for poor choice of phrasing, without any need to do so

but, and that is the most puzzling thing, did not even attempt to clarify what you termed "poor choice of phrasing". If you were clearer in your phrasing, people would not waste time trying to use the few words that you did put in OP to gain insight into your state of mind. A lot of people decided that you did not really want to have sex based on your choice of "give in" in reference to (hypothetical) sex. If you do want to have sex, say so. Clarify your position; clarify your questions. Clarity in how you pose your questions would always yield better responses for you.

Back to losing weight - I am glad you mentioned it. If that indeed is not something hypothetical, but part of a plan that you might try to implement soon, do yourself a favor by researching long-term implications of attempts to lose weight. I hope you will see for yourself that you should not attempt to lose weight and ultimately learn to be happy in the body that you do have.

Lastly, I am glad you are not pursuing eye color change via contacts, because, it turns out, that carries its own set of risks:

Color Contacts Can Carry Risks - ABC News

I don't mean to be rude, but, couldn't you just let it go hamster? Courtney answered you and I don't think I'm alone in saying its impossible to follow what the OP is all about with the continuing interruptions. This was a question for the guys wasn't it?

Looks are important. but in my experience, a good personality is priceless. i would (and have) dump(ed) the hot girl for the one i get along with better, even if she doesn't look all that great. the reason is simple: every other aspect of the relationship is so much better. looks are certainly a nice bonus, but if you're looking for perfection, personality is key.

that's just my opinion, though. hope it helps

Can someone please tell me where the ignore/hide button is?

Hey everyone.....

This is just a thread, not personal comments on anyone... All have opinion and right to share them.... We shouldn't judge anyone or take comments personally....

Disclaimer: This is my opinion, no offense.