[Inedible]

That's a little too close to saying that a person chooses their gender, in a quick read, when you mean that they place a higher priority on gender than sex. It is common for a person to decide that their physical body does not accurately reflect the real person who is on the inside. Most of the time it isn't so severe, even when surgery is involved, but the precedent is certainly in place. In many ways ideas are more real and vibrant than actual living flesh.

[Confusedinomicon]

Lycan, in the US you are required to live a certain gender and go through gender reassignment therapy and take supplemental hormones. For some people they realize at this stage that top or bottom surgery is not for them. It all depends on the persons dysphoria towards their body. Also bottom surgery is very expensive.

[Confusedinomicon]

Hamster, there is a period of time during transitioning where bodily cues makes it difficult for a former male to present as a female. Males actually have a harder time because of their physical development. (Hands/adams apple/voice etc) We tend to subconsciously notice these things so overcompensating could also done to help presentation. I asked my really good friend this who has transitioned.

Originally Posted by Confusedinomicon

Lycan, in the US you are required to live a certain gender and go through gender reassignment therapy and take supplemental hormones. For some people they realize at this stage that top or bottom surgery is not for them. It all depends on the persons dysphoria towards their body. Also bottom surgery is very expensive.

I'm not from the US but I'm pretty sure it's legal to go back to original sex.

There are transgendered people who have gone through the sex change op, full genital reassignment, and realised it was a mistake and change back. They're in the minority but it does happen.

[lynn P.]

I consider myself very accepting of the gay population and understanding of transgendered people. My brother was gay and I've always had the natural ability to empathize with these groups. He's no longer alive unfortunately. Your 1st post was interesting and I didn't realize there was such detailed groups but its still very confusing for the average person. I will try to tread lightly so I don't offend you, but you said we could ask questions and I'm very inquisitive by nature.

I understand how a persons biological gender might not coincide with who they feel they are. When you say you're gender queer - does this mean you're are physically a woman or a man but don't identify as solely one or the other??I'm curious what gender you are physically? It doesn't mean you're a Hermaphrodite - sorry if this is a stupid question. One thing I think is great - I think Sweden just made it a rule that babies born with ambiguous physical gender will no longer be surgically fixed and will let that baby become an adult to make that choice for themselves. My questions are sincere and I hope they'll be received that way.

[Confusedinomicon]

It is legal.

I think its done that way to try and prevent a person from going through all the changes and help them get to a point where they aren't experiencing dysphoria. I also know that bottom surgery isn't viable for some because of costs. Many end up going to Canada or Thailand because of costs and other variables. Expertise in surgery is not found everywhere. For instance Sweden has a neutral pronoun and a more supportive of transitioning individuals. However, despite this their options for bottom surgery are not as successful. (Cost for surgery is also supported by state whereas the US insurance companies may see the surgery as cosmetic) It is probably more common to see people 'switch back' at earlier stages where hormones are introduced. It happens, but would not be as common after extensive surgery.

There are also many people who find their dysphoria stops before surgery or they feel comfortable with themselves and choose to inhibit that space between male/female.

No Teen Idle brought up a list basically showing how much more privileged cis-gendered had in life. It doesn't take into account though they could have other issues which affects how they're treated in society. Also I'm not from the US. Different laws may well apply where I live.

[LiteraryLark]

I thought this was an info-only thread, not a debate.

My question to the OP is how do you decide what to wear, since you said something about wearing either manly, girly, or androgynous clothing? What do you typically like to wear?

[Grey Matter]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

No Teen Idle brought up a list basically showing how much more privileged cis-gendered had in life. It doesn't take into account though they could have other issues which affects how they're treated in society. Also I'm not from the US. Different laws may well apply where I live.

... That is why the list states clearly "if you're cis" not other issues. If I were talking about being non-binary and a person of color, that would be wrong of me and not my place. If I came off as preachy, it was not my intention. Others wanted more information in another thread, therefore I did my best to provide it. I am from the US. So I know the US law involving non-binary/trans*folk. I said openly that anyone else who is non-binary/trans* can add any information they'd like.

and it's cis-gender, not cis-gendered. I made a list of privileges that are based off of fact. Yes, you are in a minority if you are mentally ill. You are in a minority if you are disabled. But that is not what people asked for information on. And we are in the sexuality/gender forum.

drskipper, I'll answer your question tomorrow. I really have no spoons left today.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

No Teen Idle brought up a list basically showing how much more privileged cis-gendered had in life. It doesn't take into account though they could have other issues which affects how they're treated in society.

Could you explain your train of thought with this?

So, let us imagine that I were neither a female nor a male, and went to a doctor's office where I found myself unable to fill out a basic, standard form.

You are saying that this is so because... I have some other issues? What kind of "other issues"? Can you provide an example?

[Grey Matter]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

So if gender and sex are different then how about those who go through gender reassignment, then realise they've made a mistake and go back to the original sex they were born as? It does happen for example, where someone born as a man, changes sex, becomes a woman, then realises they've made a mistake and have surgery to be a man again.

In gender terms do we call such people once man, then woman, now man again?

You call them what they asked to be called.
The whole "oh the MAJORITY changed their minds!" mindset is a cis one. Not saying all cis people believe this, but a lot do. I haven't changed my mind. I never made a decision in the first place, it just is.

dr.skipper; I wear simple clothes. Ones that aren't female "looking" from a binary standpoint, and one that is not "masculine" from a binary stand point. I keep it neutral.

[Grey Matter]

I have used both mens and womens bathrooms. And there has never been a problem. No ones brought anything up to me, and that is because I have passing privilege either way. So despite what others were saying earlier, I DO have a privilege within this minority. I pass in ways others cannot.

It's perfectly legal to go into either bathroom in most states in the US (that I am aware of). This is simply a construct of "sex" segregation. We haven't said rid of all sexed bathrooms. We said that a gender neutral bathroom should be an option so everyone can be comfortable.

And I am a bit out of it physically and I didn't see some posts. There is no such thing as "biological gender". Sex is biological. Gender is not.

[Grey Matter]

Also, I'd really appreciate it if people would try to get along here. I didn't have to make this thread. I didn't have to spend hours composing a post with links and information. There is no need for arguments, especially on such a sensitive and misunderstood topic. If this is something you don't agree with, and you think I and others have been wrong in discussion of privileges and this conversation is stressing you out; please do not get involved.

I have no problem answering respectful questions. I have no problem offering readings on the topics etc. But I am currently in a lot of pain both physically and mentally and I'd rather this thread remain one for educational purposes and information rather than becoming an argument and a non-safe space.

Thank you.

- Grey

[Grey Matter]

I answered your question from a personal standpoint, IndieVisible.

"I have used both mens and womens bathrooms. And there has never been a problem. No ones brought anything up to me, and that is because I have passing privilege either way. So despite what others were saying earlier, I DO have a privilege within this minority. I pass in ways others cannot."

"It's perfectly legal to go into either bathroom in most states in the US (that I am aware of). This is simply a construct of "sex" segregation. We haven't said rid of all sexed bathrooms. We said that a gender neutral bathroom should be an option so everyone can be comfortable."

[growlycat]

This is an interesting thread. I'm pretty well versed in lots of things but I'm surprised at how ignorant I am about the nuances of genderqueer issues.

People can care and want fairness for others, but it can be confusing so I hope you aren't too hurt by others' well meaning responses.

Also it may help to know that sexuality isn't so cut and dried in the straight community either...I am a straight female but a psych test once stated that I am a "male-identified" female; we are all just on a spectrum

[Grey Matter]

mhm, all of this is a vast spectrum, which is why it is difficult. I am genderqueer and I am not expert. I am just sharing what I've learned so far. I think knowing this, and me learning from others who post here, will lead me to a better understanding of not only myself, but others.

[growlycat]

Although I think the name of this Nat Geo show is a bit sensational, their Taboo tv series did cover the topic of gender concepts around the world in this episode:

Taboo: The Third Sex | National Geographic Channel

of course it is by no means complete in its coverage, but interesting

[IndieVisible]

Originally Posted by growlycat

This is an interesting thread. I'm pretty well versed in lots of things but I'm surprised at how ignorant I am about the nuances of genderqueer issues.

People can care and want fairness for others, but it can be confusing so I hope you aren't too hurt by others' well meaning responses.

Also it may help to know that sexuality isn't so cut and dried in the straight community either...I am a straight female but a psych test once stated that I am a "male-identified" female; we are all just on a spectrum

Well no one is 100% str8 or 100% gay. But this is not about sex as this thread is geared towards sexual preference or orientation. There are only 2 sexes. But many preferences or identities. IMHO none of that actually changes the sex. There are only two sexes regardless how we feel about what we are. I can easily identify myself as a male, even tho at times I may experience the feminine side of me. We all have that one way or another. I think being unable to identify gender is a disorder. I admit that is my opinion. Juts like every other post in this thread.

For example: what if I identified myself as nether male or female but instead a transformer. Does my perception actually change anything? I can call myself a transformer, act like a transformer but in reality I will be either male or female by sex and identify more to one sex then another or alternate. How I identify myself is actually irrelevant in the real world or as how others perceive me is equally irrelevant. There is only two possibilities and various variations of those two possibilities.

But perception is reality! And just as people with alters with split personalities believe there are many inside them, every one has their own perception. We can not actually equate by every one's perception, we do need absolute values to measure and vary by. And that is based on science. Not personal perception.

I'm a 100% straight. This myth that everybody is a little bisexual is just that, a myth.

[Inedible]

Would you even notice if it were 98% or 97% straight?

[lynn P.]

I asked a sincere question because I was confused...... with no reply.

[Grey Matter]

Lynn, what did you ask? I am sorry if I've missed it. I am trying to catch up now.

Also, this thread has nothing to do with sexuality as gender or biological sex do not determine our sexuality. I feel that is why gender issues get even more confusing because we're taught to connect the two. I did for a while.

[Grey Matter]

Originally Posted by lynn P.

I consider myself very accepting of the gay population and understanding of transgendered people. My brother was gay and I've always had the natural ability to empathize with these groups. He's no longer alive unfortunately. Your 1st post was interesting and I didn't realize there was such detailed groups but its still very confusing for the average person. I will try to tread lightly so I don't offend you, but you said we could ask questions and I'm very inquisitive by nature.

I understand how a persons biological gender might not coincide with who they feel they are. When you say you're gender queer - does this mean you're are physically a woman or a man but don't identify as solely one or the other??I'm curious what gender you are physically? It doesn't mean you're a Hermaphrodite - sorry if this is a stupid question. One thing I think is great - I think Sweden just made it a rule that babies born with ambiguous physical gender will no longer be surgically fixed and will let that baby become an adult to make that choice for themselves. My questions are sincere and I hope they'll be received that way.

Sorry it took me so long to get to you, Lynn. Apologies.

Thank you for your questions, you asked them just fine.

Biological gender is not a term, though biological sex is! Which is what I am sure you meant (the lingo gets lost on me most of the time so really it's okay)

I am really not comfortable sharing my biological sex. That is a question many non-binary/trans* people do not feel comfortable answering as we feel it tends to lead to confusion for others, or dysphoria. That being said, some are perfectly okay with answering! Just Okay it with them first, and all should be fine. I really can only speak for me here. So you were right; physically I am a "woman" or "man" but I do not identify with the Male or Female GENDER. You got it.

Sweden is awesome for that. Good for them! Thank you for sharing that!

I'm not making a joke. On your other thread right, you said you hate people making assumptions about somebody elses gender. The thing is, let's say I'm in the store and there's some bald guy with a moustache, with make up on in a woman's dress. Now I know that's an extreme example, but what do I assume that person's gender is? Do I say hi sir or miss? But if I don't know the persons gender chances are I could cause offence.

Remember you make it seem like I'm a close friend to the person. The vast majority of the time you come into people once in your life and not see them again.

[Grey Matter]

You could say "Excuse me" when they have a clear visible cue of you.

This example is going to be triggering for sexual assualt and verbal assault so I am going to just warn everyone.

TRIGGER

A few weeks ago, I went to the store to pick up a few things. I was using the self check-out option, and while I was in line, this couple was looking at me. It made me feel extremely uncomfortable and terrified; as I once was chased out of a store all together will people trying to get a feel of me.

When he spoke (he identified as male since his girlfriend was on the phone saying "yeah, he is right here") he went to me "So, do you have A d**** or a p****? Can I check?" And then began laughing as I physically began panicking and just left the store.

I think an important thing to remember is that a lot of non-binary/trans* folk have been physically or verbally assaulted countless times. If you want to ask this theoretical person a question, your best bet is not to guess but rather to use a gender neutral approach. "Hello, how are you?" "Excuse me", "May I pass?" Or even "What is your name?".