rape? not sure...

my best friend had sex with this guy today. she told us before that she wanted to, but she knew she shouldnt, etc. but when she was with him, she told him that she couldnt, and then that she didnt want to, and flat out no. but they did anyway. she didnt like, push him off or anything, but she had told him she didnt want to. is that rape?

Yeah.. if she said no and he did it anyway, that's rape. Even if she didn't push him off, that's not consent. She could have been scared of the consequences of pushing him off, too.

ok, thank you, good to know

I think... It is hard to say...

On the one hand we are taught that 'no means no'.
On the other hand it seems that (as a matter of empirical fact) if people give out verbal messages that go one way ('no') and non-verbal messages that go another way ('yes') that people go with the non-verbal messages - ESPECIALLY when the non verbal messages involve them getting whatever it is that they want.

How messed up your friend will be about this will depend quite a lot on the narration that she accepts as the 'truth'. If she sees herself as a rape victim then I bet she is going to end up feeling hurt, used, indignant, angry etc etc etc. If she sees herself as being in an unfortunate circumstance where she wasn't able to unambiguously decide on and / or communicate what it is that she wanted then I bet she is going to end up feeling hurt, indignant etc BUT: It might be that she can use this to empower herself into how better to communicate in future...

Does she have a therapist to talk to about what happened?

I do worry... That people are a little too quick to interpret things as 'abuse' at considerable cost to people who are thus cast as 'victims'...

It might be that the guy... Is a little dissociative / not so good at seeing that she wasn't sure and thus respecting that uncertainty... Or it might be that he didn't care... How she ends up feeling about the situation will depend quite a lot on how she casts him... Was he an abuser or was he confused? Didn't he care or didn't he know? Hard to say... But the stories we tell ourself make up our lives... Hard to say...

her non-verbal signals were the same as no. she did not want it. she has a boyfriend who she is very much in love with him, she keeps telling me she wants to peel her skin off, and die and stuff. she very clearly didnt want to. he sure as hell wasnt confused. and now shes suicidal.

You mean...

While she didn't physically fight him off... She wasn't physically encouraging him either? In the sense that... She kind of froze or something and not that she kind of got lost in the moment?

Because I would think that that would be rape, yeah.

That being said... It would be hard to prove non-consent if she didn't fight him off at all (and sometimes it can be hard even if you do try and fight them off). I just mean to say that it is unclear what is to be done.

I'm sorry.

yeah, she sort of just didnt do anything after he ignored her many attempts at telling him no. she didnt know what to do.

i think freezing up is a usual reaction when people feel cornered. especially if... nobody really listened to us at certain points in our prior life.

can your friend get some rape councelling or something?

yeah, exactly. i dont know, counseling has never done anything for her except waste 50 minutes of her day. i dont know if this would be any different

councelling helps most when we have something to cry about, i think. for someone to be able to normalise her response (e.g., just because she didn't fight him off... just because she froze... doesn't mean it was her fault).

self defence courses might help, too...

so that you learn a self-defence auto response in those kinds of situations and feel safer in your ability to handle them.

i'm glad that she has you to talk to about all this. maybe... she doesn't need a t if she has such good social supports

:-)

oh god im so woriried abiout her. i know what shes capable of, and i know what she wants to do and i dont know how likely she would be to keeep her promissess especially if sghhe really decided not tto

can you persuade her to go into an ER if you can go with her? i wouldn't be surprised if it takes some time for the shock etc to sink in... might be that they can give her something to help calm her and get her through the next little while... then give her access to some kind of emergency rape crisis councellor. can you drive her / take he to the ER? otherwise... is there someone else who you trust who can help you do that for her? she might not be all that happy about it / she might not want to do it... but i'm sure she would be able to appreciate later that you were really worried about her and needed to make sure she was alright.

im 16 and i dont have my permit! and if her parents find out they will make it all worse. theyll both blame her AND her dad will hunt the guy down and kill him. which would not help. shes asleep though, i had her mom check on her under the pretense of wanting to tell her something.

I don't know if it's too late or not, but after a rape, the thing to do is get a rape kit done. Even if you don't plan to prosecute at the time, this allows you time to change your mind (even if you're sure you won't). It's important to get it done as immediately possible after a rape. After a rape, one should not bathe, eat, drink, use the bathroom, brush teeth or wash. All of these can wash away evidence.

It is so easy for women to disclaim that they were consensual.

It nearly incriminated one friend of mine, so anyone who wants to wants to and then changes their mind, perhaps even in an alcohol induced state, they are as much responsible as the guy.

Much easier if you are the girl to cry rape.

Bit harder for the guy.

Some women are so vengeful.

Well, most rape occurs to women, so yeah, it's easier for women to cry rape. That doesn't mean it's okay to do it falsely.

What do you mean, a person is responsible if she changes her mind, even in an alcohol-induced state? Are you saying a person has no right to stop sex once it's started? While I'm not saying it's a nice thing to do, and one certainly shouldn't let it get that far if one doesn't want to do it, a person still has the right to stop the act. It's rape if someone forces you beyond your asking them to stop. You can consent without really being sure, and then you realize you really don't want to do this...perhaps you suddenly grasp just how at risk you are for disease or pregnancy, or simply don't want to lose your virginity, after all...and you have absolutely every right to change your mind.

How about we all concentrate on helping Song right now????

Song.. sweetie.. can you get your friend to talk to the school counselor??? she sounds very upset..

the thing is, shes NOT crying rape. she thinks it's all her fault and refuses to believe that not wanting it and saying no makes any difference. and now i cant get a hold of her. and i cant drive.

I'm sorry you and your friend are going through this. She's a minor, too? Maybe you could contact a school counselor to help? Or ask him/her for advice; you don't have to say who was raped in doing so.

Ummmm, JUST HOW OLD IS YOUR FRIEND?
I need to know that before I can give an honest opinion. From the way you're coming off, she's sounds like she's under age. Is she?

we're 16

I am sorry for appearing too coy about your situation, but I needed to know that first. Now, let me reassure you that it IS rape!! There is NO such thing as "consenual" sex with a MINOR!!! He knows that. He should have stopped immediately after your friend starting saying no. The fact that he didn't puts him in a very different light. Yes, her parents could and SHOULD go after him. She needs to know that she didn't ask for this. While the appearance seems to be that she ok'd it, she changed her mind and that made it rape.
He shouldn't be having sex with a 16 year old anyway. She
really needs to tell her parents. If she waits too much longer the rape kit will be no good. Without that, you don't have too much chance of proving it. It will be her word against his. A rape kit will PROVE he did it.

fyi, hes also 16. but if her dad finds out he LITERALLY will kill him. LITERALLY.

Well, then let me apologize for the remarks I've made, however: HE IS STILL RESPONSIBLE for his actions!!! Rape is rape, no matter what the age. He is still able to answer for what he did. His being a minor too, is not an excuse!!! He needs to know there are consequences for his actions. The sad part about it is he will have to register
as a sex offender now. He will be on that list the rest of his life. No matter what the circumstances are!!! That would be worse than prison to me. Everybody gets to see that stuff
and he'd never get a gov't. job, or anything in Law Enforcement or the like. He dug his grave though, let him lie in it!!!

I have something to add here-- rape is when one person clearly states that they are not comfortable doing any sexual act "no", and the other person performs it anyway. I have been raped many times in my life- there are different forms of this type of violence. It can be brutal, it can also be subtle, or latent violence. An example of brutal rape is when the victim is actually physically assaulted in the process (hit, punched, etc.). A more subtle or latent violent rape is simply when one person says no and the other performs the act anyway. It is rape. And it doesn't matter what anyone says. If she said "no" that makes him a rapeist if he did it anyway. I am recently divorced, and this was one issue that just recently, I have begun dealing with. I think, when my husband did it, he was trying to punish me for being in love with someone else. He says now, that he doesn't remember it though. I don't know whether to believe him or not. I know it happened, he just doesn't like for me to call it rape. Once, I said that, he stopped admitting it and apologizing. I can remember everything about it, the conversation following even. Good luck, to you and your friend. Don't know what advice to give, having been a victim myself. I am going to sexual assault counseling. I start in about 2 weeks. Hope this helped some....

Bri7