[wi_fighter]

In mediation today, the mediator suggested post-divorce counseling. I'd be willing to give it a try, but my ex said it would be pointless. He didn't even like it when I was seeing a counselor on my own after my SA.

I said I wanted assurance that he wouldn't pull something mean and nasty after the meeting to mess with me emotionally, and I wanted him to say it in front of a witness. He said "Of course not. I would nnnnnnnnever do anything to hurt you emotionally. You've ALWAYS been emotionally safe with me". That's completely untrue.

The man doesn't see himself in any way abusive.

He sees me as completely unwilling to see things his way, so of course he thinks counseling will be pointless. He wants me to bend to his will whether it's in my own best interest or not. And he doesn't want to be told that maybe he needs to do some changing of his own.

My perception is that he doesn't see a relationship as a two-way street where each person has to compromise. The other person just needs to go along with everything he says and does and life will be wonderful. Even the mediator said something like "well if you don't let her have a say regarding the kids, of course she's going to be pissed."

I can't continue to live that way another 6 years until both of our kids are likely to be out of the house, but trying to negotiate with this guy is like beating my head against a wall. I've been trying to remain calm, but today it just fell apart. Especially when he implied I'm not fit to have my kids 50% of the time because my house is messy and I don't have an active social life and a large circle of friends.

When the mediator asked if we talk, I said yes, once or twice a week. Tony said our conversations have become fewer and fewer and they only center around his social life now. Total ********! I've deliberately changed my phone conversation stance and make sure we only discuss issues directly related to the children. If any social life discussing is being done, he's the one bringing it up. And when we do the switch of the kid's clothes every week, it takes less than 5 minutes and very few words are exchanged if any.

I'm just flabbergasted that he can lie so easily.

[wi_fighter]

Thanks for the input everyone. Bunch of views, not one reply. Not even a hug. I'm hurting, I'm questioning myself, I'm questioning my parenting abilities because I'm not the hard *** my ex thinks I need to be.

I had to sit in a small room with my abuser for two frickin' hours and hear "pffft" and have my words waved away with a hand. If I was answered positively, it was with a flat voice and a "whatever" tone. He even brought up things that happened three years ago, had nothing to do with my kids, and that I believe I even told him about and he laughed at. I called my ex landlord a name while standing in a parking lot, so he reported it and I got fined $213 for disorderly conduct since I was dumb enough to admit to it when the cop called and asked if I said it. Yep, really worthy of taking my kids away isn't it? Yet his drunk driving charge shouldn't carry any negative weight as far as he's concerned.

One thing he used to always do was tell me I don't have an opinion of my own. It was because my opinions were never good enough for him, so I just gave up after a while. Yesterday he said that he doesn't have a choice but to make all the decisions about the kids, because I can never come to one. I just can't come to them on his speedy time table. Besides, it doesn't matter WHAT I think, he thought he had veto power and could go over my head at any and all times regarding the kids. He was set straight on that by me and the mediator. In a 50/50 split there is no primary custodian.

He thinks he should have the kids more because his house is cleaner and he's stricter and has a lot of friends, and because his home is more "family oriented" meaning there's a woman in the house too. Yeah, a woman who gave her own kid up in exchange for not having to be stuck with any debt after her divorce. Real damn family oriented that is.

Then he suggested that by freeing up my schedule and removing "obstacles" I could pursue the life and any career I want and be able to live wherever I want. Um, excuse me, but every other weekend and 2 nights a week does free me up to live wherever I want. Where's the logic in that? And when I asked if he was referring to the kids as "obstacles" he denied it but didn't say what the obstacles are. In the beginning of the meeting the mediator goes "so you're the jilted husband because she wanted the divorce. Are you still feeling like the jilted husband?" "No, I don't believe I am." And yet the things he's referring to, the having the life, etc., that I want, are things he used to beat with up with in the past.

He insisted because I was friendly to the guys who cut my hair and did my nails, that they were who I wanted to live with, that they were who I was leaving him for. He also insisted they were gay and that I was going to be having nonstop orgies with these supposedly gay guys. So, if he's not feeling jilted, why is he still bringing up old arguments. And If I was leaving him for these two guys, shouldn't I be having a huge social circle of all kinds of gay friends? Oh, and shouldn't my house be spotless since all gay people are notorious clean freaks? :insert huge sarcasm smiley here:

He refused to agree with my request of not hitting my daughter. Even the damned mediator asked him "so, when you hit her, did it calm her down?" "Yes" "So it was effective discipline?" "Yes" Again, he said he doesn't hit her often. My argument was that the more it happens, the more it will happen, especially if he found it effective once. He said that he doesn't see it happening more in the future since she's getting older (she's 14) and it probably won't be necessary in the future.

I guess I am crazy, if a mediator and social services believe he's fully justified in hitting and leaving bruises since it was effective.

I guess I am crazy because I want to know my kids aren't going to be verbally and physically abused and I want to know they aren't stepping into a car with a drunk driver.

I guess I am crazy because I got emotional when he suggested my kids be taken because I'm an unfit mother, and he sat there cold and emotionless and unbending.

If he wants me to have almost no say in their lives, no influence, nothing, WHY should I stay in their lives? So I can continue to be subjected to his condescending attitude towards me?

He tells me we need to work together. There IS no working together. Working together means "don't question anything I say, just agree to it" and then I get ridiculed for not having my own opinion. He refuses to listen to my opinions. Even the kids can't talk to him if they have a problem, because he doesn't listen to them either. When I brought that up in mediation, that the kids have a few concerns with things at home but don't feel they can talk to him, his answer was "They need to talk to me........but I'm not going to let them run slip shod over me."

There are some things I did wrong yesterday. I kept "beating a dead horse" as the mediator said (but so did my ex). I brought up things that the mediator couldn't address. I got emotional, and I cried, but it wasn't meant to be manipulative. When you're attacked for not having any friends and that you shouldn't have your kids because of it, I think crying is a fairly normal reaction. I was initially told that I shouldn't have the kids because I was going to have too many friends and wouldn't be there for my kids, that I'd just be partying all the time, because, since I wanted a divorce, that's what I was obviously going to be doing. He twists everything. When I mentioned that he threatened to drag me through the mud and I'd never see the kids again if I fought for more time with the kids and child support, he said that *I* was the one who told *him* that. The "mud" he was talking about was my SA and the fact that I had a disagreement with his dad and sister-in-law like 5 and 10 years prior.

The few saving graces for me were when the mediator said that he shouldn't have called and tried to make my daughter feel guilty for deciding she wanted to stay with me instead of him during a recent schedule rearrangent because of his vacation plans. That by doing that, he was making things difficult for her and me, and it was unnecessary. Regarding raising the kids, "If you don't let her have a say, of course she's going to be pissed." Something along the lines of "If this is how she was treated, maybe that's why she wanted the divorce." and the parting words to my ex "when your son comes to you at 30, bigger and stronger than you, and tells you how he felt at 12, do you want him to say his dad was an arrogant SOB?" and he didn't say anything to me about what bad things my kids may come and tell me when they're 30.

I would be MORE than willing to go to counseling with him, because then maybe he would finally see that I am not the one who did everything wrong and if I would just change to what he wanted things would be perfectly harmonious. That's most likely the very reason he doesn't want to go, because he would find out that it wasn't all my fault and that he has to do some changing of his own in order to get me to make some changes. We BOTH have to make changes, me included. I'm trying, I'm staying calmer for longer periods, but he just keeps doing the same thing until I crack, and then it's right back where we started. He's right, I'm wrong. He's better, I'm incompetent. He's smart, I'm dumb.

I don't know how to get out of this situation, being belittled and brushed aside, when I have to see this guy every week and be reminded by his actions how worthless and undeserving I really am for forcing a divorce on him and everything that followed. How can I be considered a "survivor of abuse" if I'm still putting up with it? I'm trying to change, but it's hard when you're your own therapist. There's no one to be accountable to for not following through with the lessons you're supposed to work on. Even with a therapist, I know you have to want to do it for yourself. But it might be easier because you have someone to answer to.

You know, I have opinions, but I'm afraid to ever voice them because they might not always be popular. When I do voice them, I'm accused of just parroting what someone else told me to say. It's kind of a lose-lose situation. I want to be heard, I want my opinions to matter, but because I can't express them with flowery words backed by years of research and experience, they don't carry any weight. They're just fluffy and too emotional, and tossed aside with the breeze from the hand of an annoyed listener or reader.

[wanttoheal]

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((wi_fighter))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) I'm sorry you are struggling so much. I wish you well.

[silver_queen]

((((((((((((((((( wi ))))))))))))))))))))

I'm sorry to hear all this is going on for you . I hope you manage to get the help you need, despite the ex.

Hey Shirley,

So sorry you are going through all this.

Ok- this is the way I see it....
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
One thing he used to always do was tell me I don't have an opinion of my own. It was because my opinions were never good enough for him

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
sounds to me like he wants " control "......
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
He thinks he should have the kids more because his house is cleaner and he's stricter and has a lot of friends

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> sounds like " control " again- or else he would consider how HIS kids need their mother too!

It also seems to me he's trying to break you down by emphazing you don't have a social circle. WTF- does that have to do with being a good mother??? I have 0 friends and my teenage boys are quite balanced, dedicated and social people! IMO- it's the values you hand down that are most important- like--kindness, compassion and honesty. Those raise a great child- not so much if mom has so and so as friends!!

Shirley-- believe in yourself!!! You are not crazy for thinking the way you do. This mediator is only human, I agree with you that she should have said something to your ex about hitting your daughter- but perhaps she felt it was an isolated event and overlooked the absolute need to still mention how it's never OK to hit a child.

I think you are on the right path... try not to get discouraged. Look at the good things you got out of the meeting and let the bad things help you to learn/prepare for your future interactions with your ex.

Sorry I took so long to reply.... busy day yesterday.
Take care Shirley,

Mandy

[wi_fighter]

Thanks wantstoheal and silver_queen. Hugs are much appreciated right now.

Thanks Mandy. You gave some good input. I'll try to keep it in mind. I want so much for this to not reach an impasse where we have to hire another lawyer and get every detail of our lives investigated. The ex won't bend on anything. He insists that he is right and I am wrong, PERIOD. That's why I want to give counseling a try. We can hold off the investigation if we can do that, but I said yesterday that I'd rather have a huge investigation than back down to the ex again, since backing down before is what got us to this point.

I'm not saying he has to give in to all of my requests, but if he could at least acknowledge and respect them, that would be a huge improvement. That's not going to happen without counseling, but he won't go for it. I know I have to give him free reign too, but right now I can't do that comfortably, not with the alcohol and hitting background I'm still working on understanding.

[mrb020377]

wi_fighter, I am here for you!!!! Just remember you are a worthy person. Please take care of yourself. (((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))

[wi_fighter]

Thanks Mel. I try to keep telling myself I am, but when I have to listen to Mr. Arrogant say I'm not, it's really easy to let his perceptions override mine.

I'm thinking he was trying to counter my concern that he parties too much (when the kids are with him) with what he considered an equally ridiculous argument - that not partying enough on my part is just as bad. However, I fail to see having a less than flourishing social life as bad or worse than ignoring your kids because you're more interested in having fun with your SO and your younger, childless friends.

That was kind of the order things took yesterday - I'd raise a concern, he'd counter with his exaggerated concern about me but on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Arrrrrgh! I'm having a hard time getting back into a work frame of mind since yesterday. I'm taking the kids to Madison this weekend come hell or high water, but the office is gonna be peeved if I have another short work day today.

[mrb020377]

i have said it before, there are some evil men in this world. I have the same problem. everytime i feel like i am failing, i feel worthless, because my abusers said it sooo many times.

YOU are not worthless!!!!! YOU are Worthy!!!!! YOU can make it through this.

DO I need to come hold your hand and give him what he deserves? lol

[wi_fighter]

LOL, Mel. Nah, I've got a lawyer, and a court commissioner, and a mediator who have all made it known to him that he's not all that. Anything more that you and I would do would prolly put us in jail.

He called a few minutes ago to give me some info about our daughter's school problems the last couple of days - got a detention for acting out and failed to bring all of her homework home - and he was all chatty, telling me about the new litter of kittens that I should tell the kids about. This is the same guy who was being an absolute *(&amp;^@% to me yesterday.

[wisewoman]

Hi Wi, I am here, just self absorbed. Maybe you don't need or want opinions, if true stop reading now. My opinion is that you can not ever get the man to change and the only thing you can control is how you parent, who you are as a person. You are so nice, it's hurting you. You don't need to have him go back and say oh yeah I admit I did that and it was my fault. Chances are quite high that won't happen. You can be at peace with your truth. There were a million years when I wanted to hear my abusers own up and apologize. Hey, they still believe we were the waltons. I know my reality, you know yours. Part of that is processing the feelings you have about his abuse. Part of it is dealing with him in a way that he can't take your power. He hurt you and continues to do so. That is HIM. You can take care of yourself and love your babies and learn to trust your gut and listen to it. I hope this helps. Take good care of you. You deserve it. By the way, do you still get your hair and nails done? That is a nice pampering thing to do. I personally would not ever do post-divorce counseling. He still has too much power. I wish for you to know your reality and stand firm in your values and your parenting. You go girl!

[mrb020377]

Wi_fighter,
I have never been to jail........ hmmm lets think this through again. Ok, how about this, How about I just offer you my shoulder to use anytime you need it? Is that ok? Atleast we won't go to jail for that.

[wi_fighter]

WW, your advice was much appreciated. Thanks.

The mediator suggested counseling as far as us learning how to deal with each other regarding the kids, not so much dealing with issues between us personally. The mediators description was "so you two can learn to play in the same sandbox with the same toys" meaning the kids. But I have a strong feeling his control issues would come into play and the counselor would want to know about past issues. Don't they all? "So, tell me, what were your parents like that made you pick this person and turn into the parent you've become, blah blah blah.

I don't care what my son thinks, I'm dragging those two kids to the abuse shelter support group on Wednesday. It's something I need to do for us and there's no way he's staying back here on his own for 3 hours. Besides, he needs this as much as the rest of us.

Two weeks ago, my daughter was saying "I'm not going to say I only want to stay with dad every other weekend, that would be mean." After he's gotten nastier and started saying bad things about me to them, and she's found out he's been lying about things, she said "If I had a choice, I would stay here more often. But don't tell dad I said that."

I have a feeling what the kids want and what I want is not going to be what the court finds in their best interest because I'm not a hard *** who makes them clean their rooms on a daily basis and force them to do their homework by 6:00 every night while sitting in a noisy environment at the dining room table since they're no longer allowed to do their homework in the privacy of their own bedrooms. He's enforcing adult supervision for everything short of showering and shi tting (oh, and BB gun use, that doesn't need adult supervision).

[(JD)]

Reading your post... thinking about that counselor idea... if the counselor is expert in divorce relationships then it would be a good thing. Neither you nor spouse would "get away" with playing the children as Ace cards, so to speak.

Yes, our home environment has much to do with the average selection for spouse...unless you have therapy first LOL I'm wondering why this aspect bothers you. Do you feel responsible for a poor choice, like you "knew" it was a bad idea or something? I assure you that revisiting the factors now can only help you in the future.

Can you ask the judge to interview the children (he really should do that anyway, imo.)

[wi_fighter]

Sky, it doesn't bother me. What I meant was that the counselor would dig into the past too, not just focus on today. They'd want to know what got us to this point, right?

We're going to have to get a guardian ad lidem and they'll talk to the kids and do a full investigation of me and him. I'm not looking forward to that because I'm afraid they'll deem him "in the best interest of the children" since he's stricter and keeps a cleaner house.

[nothemama8]

Shirley, out of the mouths of babes comes the truth, the counselors will see that he is the whole arse not the arsehole
Angie

[mrb020377]

nothemama you said it!!!!!