Feel Trapped Into Accepting Job

It's funny how the timing seems against us! Too bad you hadn't started this conversation *after* your friend was settled in from her move, too bad I didn't start talking to this company until after my friend had talked some reason to them.

I haven't heard from them, btw. Not sure if my salary request and ‘reluctance’ at the interview scared them off or if it’s just more of this guy’s lack of prompt responsiveness. I sort of expect an invite today for an interview tomorrow, LOL.

Do you think you could invite your potential new boss out for coffee or lunch or would that be too weird? I often feel like I only get one chance to ping someone on something like this and hate to waste it by moving too soon... and companies really do just seem slower about this. There isn't any posted position with this team, right? It's more like she would be making room for you?

And while there’s a lot to be said for not moving too quickly, someone else’s interest and enthusiasm can be very motivating. I wonder if there is any opportunity for a ‘hey, I was thinking of you!’ kind of communication that sort of gets that across without being naggy.

I've had similar experiences with groups, where I don't care for it at first but then start to settle in... and sometimes it just never really clicks. I've been adjusting my strategy for this kind of stuff, trying to make it more about meeting new people than skill acquisition, and it's kind of helping. Your song writing and acting courses sound like fun – I love taking classes like that.

I’ve also found, though, that there are some groups that I just immediately click with – and I really want more of *that.* A friend told me that a local museum gave their volunteers a super backstage tour, so I signed up to be a docent. Wow! My motivations may have been suspect, but I felt like I had met my people! This sort of instant clicking happens so rarely for me.

I'm stuck on the business board for the next year unless I resign, which I don't think I'll do. I’ve thought I had learned not to commit to volunteer projects without vetting them. This was an aberration and yet another reminder that I need to stick to that rule. I'll make more of an effort at the next meeting, too. I got there right on time and had to run out as soon as it ended. I know my reaction had more to do with me than anyone there and I just need to proceed with that in mind.

I do think the image thing matters for more than few seconds, but thinking about it will probably bum me out. I wonder if someday I’ll care enough about this to actually change some of my behaviors…

Maybe you haven't heard back from them because they're all scrambling around trying to create the budget and offer letter for you? One can hope. It's frustrating that companies usually don't tell you if they don't want to hire you, but since your friend is there - I'd think she'd give you a heads up if things were to fall apart. So, probably safe to assume that they're still trying to figure out their stuff!

Yeah, I think inviting her to coffee might be a bit odd. We've actually done the coffee thing once, when my friend introduced us the three of us met at Starbucks and talked for awhile. I don't know, I guess I'm opting to not worry too much about it. I was worried, but now that I've had some things to do for my current job, it's a bit less pressing. And, as I said, it seems smart to try to hunker down at work and be grateful for the low workload as I work through all my many issues in therapy ! I'm sure at some point therapy will intersect work again, and it will probably be the push I need to go out and look for a better job...

Oh, the retirement thing - I'm not sure how it works, but I think I'm actually able to retire in 11 years now, not 10 (I know, small difference!). My friend was just very adamant that it would be good to stay and do that, that the benefits you keep make it worth it. I'll still be plenty young in 11 years, and I figure therapy is going to take up at least 3-4 of those at the rate I'm going... so it will probably go by in no time! Then I can run away, work for a theater company, or do something else exciting that doesn't pay much

The acting class was a TON of fun. I really *need* to do the next one... it's a bit rough right now, too many other things going on, but it's on my list for sometime this year, I hope! Piano is great too, but it's a lot of work and I'm not really "talented", and don't have put in enough time to be good. Still, fun.

If you're in any way attracted to stuff like that, I'd say - go do it! All that creative stuff can be so much fun (with the right people!) - it's really worth dipping your toes in, in my opinion. Such a nice break from reality

The museum work (and tour!) sounds really neat! So, are you a docent now? Did you have to do a lot of training to do that? Wow! I bet that gives you a ton of practice in chatting with people, aren't you talking to people all the time about the art and answering questions?!! Very cool! And, how awesome that you clicked with the people there! I know exactly what you mean - and it IS hard to find, but really wonderful when you do!

Ugh, sorry that you're stuck with the business board for the next year. Maybe something good will come of it though?

I really don't know about the image stuff, but I'm biased, because (like most tech people, I guess) I'm just not that good at "image", and honestly have a hard time caring . One of the people we interviewed looked pretty crazy, and we knew that from his website. He even brought it up on the phone interview and asked if it would be ok, since we're a huge mega-company. And, as crazy as his personal stuff was (think big fuzzy beard and holes in his ears)... you know what else... I could see his stomach peeping through his shirt during the interview just a tiny bit, because his shirt was a bit tight, and the buttons weren't holding it closed all the way (!!!).

I mentioned it to the other people after the interview, and they had seen it too. And, not one person cared, because his skills were that good, and his personality seemed like he'd fit in with our team! Heck, 90% of the time we all work from home in PJs . But, it was one of those things that struck me as weird - but like I said - nobody cared. I think that's kind of great, and gives me hope!

Edit to add: Oh geez! I swear, I tried to write this one shorter! I thought it was shorter! I really did! Then, I submit it, and look - it's like a book. I'm sorry for the rambling and length!

I'm trying not to read anything into the lack of response from this guy, since that's been a trademark. It's going to get awkward if he doesn't give me enough notice, though. The next two people I am supposed to meet are both based in satellite offices a few hours away. I shouldn't be worrying about that now... but next week is getting booked up!

Ah, just heard back from my friend - he's supposed to get in touch with me. She told me to let her know if I don't hear back by the end of the day.

I think you have a great approach to your situation. If you can set aside the worry/stress of not having enough to do and start working on your own stuff, that's perfect. When I was in a similar situation, I took on some random external projects. I put on a play! It gave me an identity that wasn't tied up in a job I was unhappy with.

It could be that staying where you are is the best choice. It could also be that moving on is to your advantage. If where you are right now works, there's nothing wrong with sticking with it. Opportunities have a way of presenting themselves, especially if you're lifting up the corners of the rug occasionally, just to see what's out there.

Yeah, I'm a docent for this place, but I will probably keep it limited to the holiday season, when they do more things for locals as opposed to summer guided tours for tourists. It's seasonal, so they are open Memorial Day through Columbus Day and then from Thanksgiving to New Years.

The training was extremely minimal! I was really nervous about doing it without knowing enough, but it's true that almost everyone has the same questions! I just kept in mind a few things to point out/stories in each area. I LOVED the people observation that came with it. It's so funny - I think of myself as an introvert and I am uncomfortable in a lot of group situations, like parties, but I LOVE talking to random strangers in that kind of situation.

I'm a tech person who is not good at image, who doesn't really understand why I can't wear sneakers with my skirts. I know that this has a negative impact on my life. I am too far in the wrong direction. I don't want people to meet me and remember that my shirt was too tight or that I forgot to brush my hair.

I really just want to remember to brush my hair

It's so messed up - I was happier when I thought that I wasn't getting this job. Now that I know they are still interested, I have that knot in my stomach again. I am pretty sure that it is *any* job, not just this one specifically, that makes me feel this way.

Wow - long email from my friend. They plan on hiring me. They want me to meet some other people, but it's 'not going to change the outcome.'

I wish I knew whether or not they are accepting my terms. I still have to wait for this other guy to get back to me. My friend told me to wrap up loose ends next week. Too crazy. I hope that doesn't mean they expect me to be full time.

Oh wow!

So first, congratulations! They want to hire you! Even if everything falls apart now, at least you'll know that you succeeded in getting an offer! That's great.

I guess all you can do is hang on now, and wait for them to get back to you with the formal offer. I hope that they're able to give you what you had asked for, and that they stick with the plan of bringing you on part-time. If that guy is supposed to be getting back to you (did he?) does that mean you'd definitely have to report to him?

Good luck, and I hope it all works out the way you want it to!

I just heard back from my friend today. She hasn't heard anything from her friend yet, so maybe everyone is just busy. My poor friend is not settling in to the new locale really well, and I feel bad for her... I forgot that she's never really lived out of state, so it's a BIG move for her (basically cross-country).

How did you end up putting on a play!? I'm fascinated! Did you initiate it, or was the play already happening, and you volunteered to take over? What did you do? I'd love to get more involved with theater stuff, acting class was so much fun... and I've done a tiny bit of volunteering with two start-up opera companies (both defunct now, sadly!).

The docent work sounds really fun too! You manage to fit a lot in!

I have absolutely no good advice on style or image. I think I'm too similar to you in this area! I didn't start wearing makeup until my mid-30s - and when I did, it was because friends from the opera company took me out for a makeover (clothes, hair, makeup). I felt like I looked ridiculous with the makeup (it looked like it was floating on my face!) and ended up only wearing it about half the days I went to work... so nobody knew what to expect when I was there Luckily, I got a lot of very positive feedback and encouragement, so I stick with it now (except for days when I'm only running out to the grocery store, then I skip it!).

I do brush my hair, but I think sometimes it's hard to tell the difference - lol! And one time, I had thrown my hair up in a barrette first thing in the morning without brushing it, and forgotten... ran out to Walmart to pick up something I'd ordered and realized, halfway through the store, that I probably looked like a maniac! Ha! But, I survived.

Good luck with the offer! Fingers crossed that come back with a part-time position, and a decent amount of money for you!

I will be very curious to see how the situation aligns with my initial impressions. If I do report to this guy, it will only be temporary. I really, really, really hope it's part time. I am nervous about my friend's email telling me to make sure all my loose ends were tied up next week. Trying not to worry about this since I shouldn't borrow trouble...

I hope your friend can find something she likes about her new place! I can't imagine leaving my birth state permanently, especially for a place across the country with a completely alien culture. The evidence that 'busy' is the reason you haven't heard anything yet is sure piling up. I'm on month four with the company I've been talking with!

That is so neat that you helped start up opera companies! How did you become involved in that? I mean, not one, but *two*??? I hope you can find more time for the acting classes. You'd mentioned that they had a requirement for the more advanced class that you just weren't into. I bet they'd let you opt out of that!

Re: the play: it just kind of happened. I was writing dialogues at the time and some of my crowds included other people who were also writing/acting. We decided to put on a show with a few of our short pieces. We had a full house every night, probably because we had limited seating and over 14 actors!

The kind of funny thing about that is I was still working full time, plus going to grad school full time. I kind of hope that having this part time job makes me more productive again. I do fit a lot in when I am not working, but I kind of think I fit even more in if I have some scheduled activities as well.

My hair also doesn't always looked brushed even when I do brush it! I love winter -- hats! I would like to do an image consultation, just so I know what's 'normal' even if I choose to opt out. I keep saying I'll do it when I lose some weight and buy a new wardrobe, but I've been saying that for too many years.

It's very hard not to borrow trouble.

New word from my friend. No more interviews. They are meeting Monday to work out some details. I replied back with some direct questions, because I'd like to know what they are pitching to prepare myself for a response - there are so many unanswered questions: pay, # hours, schedule, boss, benefits.

I am trying to remind myself not to read too much into emails. Her emails read like they want me to start next week and I just have to keep reminding myself that I can say no to that. I wasn't the one who was banging down their door for a job - they approached me... four months ago. If they are in a desperate situation now, it's not of my making.

Her emails also seem to assume that I'm just going to agree to whatever they pitch. I hope that's because she's making sure that what they offer is what I want.

Trying to psych myself up. Negotiating is not my favorite thing. I hope they just give me what I asked for without trying to nickel and dime me. There's no reason for them to come in at the low end of my range, and if they haven't hired a full time person in 8 years, what's wrong with a part-time person available in a week?

I can't believe that they said my reluctance was worrisome given their actions/lack of action. The reaction they had to continuing the contract work was also just weird. I don't understand what the issue was. It's going to cost them the same amount of money either way and there's more flexibility on their end if I am contract.

Okay, I really am borrowing trouble here. Time to do something more productive than ruminating!

Wow... this has been going on for FOUR MONTHS? Yeah, they definitely don't seem to know what they want, or what they're doing, and I think it's really smart of you to realize that whatever they offer, you can say no. Let's hope your friend is working hard behind the scenes to create an offer that will make you happy!

I agree about negotiating. So not fun, although if you really don't need the job and are willing to walk away, it gives you a bit of power! Didn't you friend also say, previously, to ask for whatever you wanted? So, hopefully they're inclined to make you happy - it certainly sounds like they need you at this point.

I hope you can put it out of your mind for a bit to relax and enjoy the weekend!

The plays you did sound like so much fun! I'd LOVE to do something like that! How neat! I've always wanted to write, but haven't quite gotten it together. (I did an online class through UCLA on TV writing though - which was unbelievable! The woman teaching it actually work on several shows, and had writer friends - when we needed example scripts from a show, she just asked her friends from that show, and poof! There they were!)

The 2nd acting class doesn't actually have any additional requirements, and I very much want to take it. I'm just feeling a bit icky right now (my diet has fallen apart a bit over the last year), so I sort of want to get all that stuff back in place so that I feel better before getting out around people again ... but I definitely plan to do it, eventually!

The operas were fun! I had just started piano lessons, and it turned out, my teacher (who also composes) and his wife (a singer), were starting an opera company (now out of business). They were writing their own operas. When I initially volunteered, he wasn't sure what they needed, so it wasn't clear if I'd be able to work with them...

But, starting piano, and doing lots of computer work... I had started having hand pain. And, it turns out the massage therapist that I saw through my chiropractor was ALSO a singer, who was starting an opera company with a few other local singers! When I volunteered, she was over the moon - because they really didn't have anyone lined up to do any of the backstage type stuff! That went really well, and my piano teacher's stuff fell in place, so I was able to work with him on their show.

It was all so much fun. I love being in the theaters, love the music, the stories, *sigh*. I don't think I'd actually want to *act* in front of people, but I think it's good to get an idea of how it works... just not sure where I fit in. I'd like to write... but maybe learn more about directing too? The guy who taught my acting class directs... and even in class, you could see what a HUGE difference a good director makes, which is something that is usually "invisible" if you're just part of the audience.

That's crazy that you were able to do all that at once - work, grad school, and the play! How did you find time to sleep?!

I'm really not sure how this can still be unresolved, but...

I had another long chat with my friend. They've decided that they *do* want me on as a subcontractor, three days a week. They also want to hide my presence from their parent company. It all sounds a bit strange, but livable... but now they are also getting twitchy about taking on any projects that might catch the attention of their parent i.e. any of them - so I'm not really clear what they want me to *do* for 24 hours a week.

My friend told me that she was embarrassed by this whole process. She also shared some gossip about the company that will be *very* useful as someone walking in. I know what kind of dysfunctional situation I'm walking into.

I'm still waiting for her to send over their subcontractor agreement. I sort of expect it to have the wrong rate, at this point. I really wish I had quoted her more to begin with.

It is *so* true that a good director makes all the difference! I really wish I had gotten someone else to direct my play - I had no idea what I was doing and had to rely on the actors to figure it out for themselves. Do they have directing classes in your area? I wonder how people get into that - most of the directors I know are also actors.

How cool to have been involved in a company staging original operas! It's so funny that you wound up finding the second company as a result of wrist pain, too I just find things like that to be such a good reminder that a lot of life happens as a result of getting out of the house, even for mundane stuff...

Ha! At least you know that they're all crazy! Sorry, it just seems like with every twist, my mouth is wide open in disbelief. It's interesting to see that it's all coming full-circle, and now they DO want you to be a contractor, which is what you had originally wanted, and what they seemed to react oddly to, right? Sigh... I guess the world works in weird ways!

I have no idea what to make of the idea of keeping you in stealth mode, and hiding you from their parent company, especially when they were trying to sell you on the opportunities to move up into the parent company! It sounds like they really, truly don't have a clue what they're doing.

I hope the contract comes in as expected with no surprises! After all this craziness, wouldn't THAT be a nice surprise in and of itself?!?!

Yeah, I'm not sure how people become directors either. I think I've seen a random class here or there offered re: film directing, but I think those might focus more on how to frame shots, rather than how to get great performances from people.

We did this one exercise where... we had small "contentless" scenes (i.e. things like, "Did you get it?"; "Yeah, I got it right here!"; "Was it hard?" ; "It wasn't that bad..." - we had to work with a partner to determine what the scene was about). Anyway, we'd do our scene for the class... and he'd be able to pinpoint what the subtext was, and summarize it in a sentence. Then, he'd have us do it again (these were really short, about 8 lines total) - but adding the subtext as an extra line after every line we said.

It sounds crazy, but it made such a huge, visible difference! It was really amazing.

So, in my "did you get it" scene - my subtext was really easy and clear ("Give it to me!") - because I wanted to... um, well the potion that my arch-rival witch had. Her subtext was, "Whose the better witch?" - because she wanted me to finally admit that she was a better witch than me (yes, it was lots of fun!)

So, I'd say, "Did you get it? Give it to me!", and she'd say, "Yes, I've got it right here! Who's the better witch?" - seriously, you'd be amazed at how much more energy and clarity and purpose people have when you have to articulate the subtext.

Then we did the scene one last time, as it was written, but trying to keep the energy from that second run.

It really blows my mind how much of a difference it made - and we were just little baby beginner actors who didn't know anything So fun!

And, yeah, the opera stuff was great! What was really funny was... working on my piano teacher's production, I must have said something to his wife at some point about how much fun they seemed to be having on stage... so she (she who wrote all the story/lyrics) said with *great* enthusiasm... "OMG! Do you want to be on stage? I can write you a part!" *lol*. I reminded her that I can't sing... and she told me it would be a non-singing, non-speaking walk-on role.

So cool! But given my untame-able hair and non-existant enthusiasm for serious makeup application, ya know... I had to say no. BUT, it did remind me that... if there's something you want to be doing, you should try to get NEAR it - because just by being there, opportunities will present themselves that you otherwise wouldn't get. At my boring office job, nobody will ever offer me the chance to walk-on stage in an opera! I'd be willing to put money on that!

Anyway! Congratulations (?) - since it sounds like you'll be getting the part-time contracting job that you wanted! That part sounds so wonderful... I'd really love to find a way to work 3 days a week, and support myself on that - and spend more time on fun stuff, like writing and music and theater and life!

I had forgotten that they were trying to sell me on the parent company opportunities! It really does just make me roll my eyes, the whole thing. I still haven't received a copy of the written offer. She was telling me stories about what's happening at the parent company, a new email about layoffs everyday.

I think I AM going to ask for more money, too. I'm going to approach it from the position of having to buy my own health insurance. Before we were negotiating a fulltime job with benefits, now we are talking about contracting. When I quoted the original contract job, it was a one-off, low level work, discounted rate.

And I woke up at 3 AM this morning and started thinking about this place. They were awarded a big contract. They are hiring me on as part of the ramp up for that contract. What happens when the contract ends?

I will be part of the incompetent guy's department (guess I know who I will report to). I'm starting to wonder if they really want me to do work for that guy -- programming, not IT.

I have a feeling this is going to be short lived. Maybe it won't start at all, depending on what the written contract says, if it ever even comes. My friend is really prompt about things, so I kind of wonder if she hasn't passed along the agreement because they changed their minds again!

That subtext exercise is really neat! Gosh, having acting classes, even if you aren't into being on stage, sounds so helpful when it comes to directing or writing. Even writing a novel, reminding yourself that the subtext of this scene is X would really help focus the dialogue/action.

I love that you were offered (and turned down!) a role in an opera And, yeah, it can be hard to get access to that stuff in a boring day job... although I guess it depends on the company? Are there other people who have outside interests like you do at your place?

My second-to-last job, I felt like such a freak - it was a small company and no one really did anything outside of work. There was only one other person who wasn't married with kids. At most of my other jobs, there's been at least a few people who had serious hobbies or outside-of-work pursuits.

It's so hard not to start spending this money before I earn it. There's a national pottery conference a few states away towards the end of March - and since I'm loving my pottery class so much, I'm thinking about going. I am so cheap that it's really hard to suck it up and pay the outrageous $$ for a hotel, but I think this could be a really interesting experience.

I think negotiating a higher rate based on the fact that they originally were going to offer benefits is very smart. Good luck with that. And, doesn't stuff like this just make you really want to run your own business? Seeing how screwed up other companies are... I can't help but think, how could I *not* do that better! The bar doesn't seem to be that high!

So, no contract yet today, I assume?

The subtext exercise was SO cool! I feel like writing a description of it just doesn't do it justice, you know? It really produced such a big change for *everyone* - although we weren't great at holding on to the change when we took the subtext away again. Still, it was really neat, and you're right - the whole experience is great for any kind of writing or directing. It really drove home the point of how important it is to really know what your characters actually want - not just in the overall story - but this instant, why are they engaging in this scene, and how are they trying to get it.

I don't know... I don't really click with most of the people that I work with, but we all work remotely most of the time anyway, so we're not really super-bonded. There's one woman more in the development side who I think was a film major, and I've talked to her a couple times, but... I don't know. She's married with kids, so I'm sure she's busy, and she tends to be a little on the hyper side!

Ooh the pottery conference sounds like it could be fun, and a nice excuse to get away! I wish they'd send you the contract already, so you'd at least know what they're offering and whether you want to accept it or not! It would make it easier to plan stuff like that! I've never done any pottery - but it looks like it might be sort of relaxing. Is it? What types of things do you make in your class? Sounds fun, anyway!

Nope, no contract! I booked a hotel room I can cancel because it looks like they're starting to sell out...

And I agree -- watching other companies make money when they are so badly run really makes me want to have my own company! And I *will* have my own company if/when this deal comes through.

The pottery has been *amazing*. I am generally not good with a lot of arts and crafts stuff. I like the idea of sewing but don't have the patience for it. Same with knitting. Can't draw, can't paint. The pottery isn't something that I'm good at (yet), but unlike the other stuff, I actually enjoy spending hours doing it until I get it 'just so.'

I went into the studio a bit before 11 AM the other day, thinking I'd be there an hour, and at 2:30 I realized I was starving - it's so easy to lose track of time. I am so excited about the stuff I'll be able to make that will be exactly the right shape/design for my cooking projects!

I can't believe this.

I just got an email. My friend thinks that I won't meet the legal definition of a subcontractor and is putting together a regular employment contract. She needs to get approval before sending it to me.

I countered by telling her they can hire my LLC as a service provider. Maybe they noticed the 20k difference between my too low contract rate and the salary I quoted. I am kicking myself for not developing a client base in the four months I have been talking to these people.

And heard back - no go on hiring me via my LLC because they will have 'complete discretion' over my work and schedule. And still no contract in my hands because the new one has to get approved by the other two and they are both out.

For desperate people, they sure make some strange choices. They have had massive and repeated systems failures over the past months. They are ramping up their workforce by 20% in the next two weeks for a new project.

Off to the dentist. I spent this afternoon setting up a new website advertising my professional services (OMG, it's amazing how quickly these sites get dated!!!). At least this has been motivating.

Still no written offer for a job they wanted me to start next week.

I really can't wait to see what the offer winds up being - if it ever comes, which I'm starting to doubt.

We need a business soap opera genre. I have some scripts...

Unbelievable. The agreement came through. They prorated me at the low end of the salary range I gave them. No benefits at all. They want me to start on Monday because they have a huge amount of work waiting. Unbelievable.

And even so, I am not sure what I will do.

Oh wow... Hvert, I'm sorry that they're making this so hard on you! Wow... it's just, as you mentioned, so strange considering they want you to start immediately, they're having such huge problems with their systems, and are getting ready to staff up for a project. Just crazy.

So, they're offering you a *salary* for a certain number of days/hours? I'd just be worried that with this company, and this guy as your boss, that you'll run into a lot of extra work, extra hours, but no extra pay because, you know, "you're salary". Just something to look out for.

What are you thinking you're going to do? Any room to push back on the salary, or to try to get some benefits worked in? If they're not including benefits, can you still use your negotiation tactic, "I need to pay for health insurance, this isn't going to cut it"?

I think the writing was kind of on the wall with this one, especially when you mentioned that they don't really value the skills that you're bringing to the table and they see IT as a cost center? It just seems like... gosh, I'm sorry to even say this, it seems like it might be a bit brutal and soul-killing to go work there I don't know, I mean, the part time thing is great, if they're actually paying you a decent, fair amount for the work you're doing (?) but I'm still assuming that you're working for the crazy guy, and that they still want to "hide" you from corporate which just raises red flags to me!

On the other hand, if you feel like you need the job to get some income coming in and to put on your resume... I don't think anyone can fault you for that.

The details of the offer coming through late on Thursday though, and expecting you to start Monday (along with everything else that has happened with them while interviewing) which just really worry me... like I said, I wouldn't expect them to act any better once you're actually an employee!

Good luck with that decision, and sorry they didn't make a better offer!

And, *argh*. I fell last night and twisted my ankle (and bruised/scraped up one knee, and bruised a wrist). I just feel icky. I'm trying to keep up with work stuff, but I just want to sleep for awhile. So not fun.

My friend had emailed me, and wanted me to call her... I told her I could do it last Monday, and tried, but she didn't pick up. I've emailed her, and no response. I'm hoping she's ok... last I heard her whole family had been sick, including pets, from the cross-country move! I'm hoping things are OK out there... Still nothing from the other woman, and I'm sort of feeling... you know, not very motivated to follow up on it. It's terrible, but I don't know, I think between therapy and the fall and just plain old life issues (mom!) I'm a little *tired* - you know?

Good luck with your decision, and with doing some more negotiating if you go that route!

Ouch! I'm sorry you twisted your ankle and hurt your knee and wrist! Joint injuries are no fun! I hope that if your body is telling you that you need sleep, you can find the time to get it. Sometimes there are definitely advantages to slow work periods

I want your friend to call you! Even if you aren't as interested in the position, it would be nice to get the scoop... and hear that everything is now going smoothly for your friend, no sick pets or family. And, really, it's not like getting in touch with the woman is going to make *that* much difference. She either has a position for you or she doesn't or she hasn't had time to make one yet. Maybe things might move along more quickly if you nudge, but not nudging probably isn't going to hurt.

I talked with my friend. She encouraged me to counter offer with continuing the contract. She thinks they will accept. I started to write the email and just feel really awkward about it - she is the one who wanted me to be an employee and maybe I should have pushed her more forcefully on that before she dug up the employment contract? I don't want to make her look bad.

I worry that I am being too crazy about this. I could be turning down a just about livable salary for part time work... but there are just SO MANY red flags with these people. I do NOT want to be their employee. I barely want to be their contractor!

The contract does say that I will continue at an hourly rate after the salaried 24 hours, so it's not as bad as it could have been -- and the hourly rate is the right one. I checked.

I've spent about three hours drafting this counter offer. I wish I was getting paid for all the mental energy I have wasted on this! Or that I could just stop wasting it!

I am worried that my friend is going to get sick of me, too. She still sounds like she really wants me to work there, but I worry that I disappointed her with my reaction to this offer. I worry that I am splitting hairs. She told me to send my counter offer and that she would tell the guy I would report to that it was up to him to deal with it. Does that mean something?

And did I give too many confusing signals? I think the more I went down this path, the more I realized that I do not want full time work with these people.

I just noticed the job title, too -- it's an introductory level job title, half of which refers to something that's completely outside of my field. Ack, no more of this tonight. Thank you for confirming that all these warning signs aren't just me. I reread some of this thread earlier today and could not believe how 'right on' a lot of these perceptions were from the beginning.

I sent a counter offer. It's really not that much difference in terms of net $$, but the idea of being a contractor is somehow livable when being an employee is not. There are also some significant tax advantages.

I'm not sure which the worst case scenario is - them saying no and rescinding the original offer? I do think that I will accept their original offer if it comes to that, even if I just do it for a few weeks or months.

Good for you for sending the counter-offer! I wonder how long it's going to take them to get back to you! I think that if your friend said to send it over, you don't need to worry about how it's going to reflect on her... she wouldn't have encouraged you to do that if she had any concerns for herself.

I'm not really sure what it means if she tells that guy that he has to deal with it. He just doesn't seem very reliable, so I don't know how that's going to play out... I guess you'll find out!

And, ugh... the whole situation sounds so messy. I'm sorry! I hope that when you start working, you can manage to keep thinking about your own business on the side and building up some clients for that, so that you can eventually get away from this place and do your own thing!

Thanks for the good thoughts about my friend, and the fall. Yeah, I'm just feeling sort of *ugh* - it was just so painful (I almost passed out, a couple times, trying to get back into the house!) and it sucks. I live alone, so no real help here. The good news is that the ankle seems to be doing pretty well, I'm hobbling around with less pain than the last time I sprained an ankle, which is good, and even made it to the store this afternoon for... umm... chocolate and cheesecake (and now have a spinning head from too much sugar!)

I hope my friend is ok too. She sounded so miserable in her last email, and now I haven't heard anything from her at all this week... !

Oh wow, passing out when you are trying to make it back into the house sounds really scary! Injuring yourself when you live alone is no fun and I can see why that would prompt a run to the store for dessert. They put caffeine in Excedrin, so the caffeine in chocolate must be beneficial right?

I bet a surprise box of pralines would perk your friend up

They countered late today with a contract rate 20% below what I asked for and what they were paying me (already too low). It is not a livable, long-term contract wage. It is closer to half of market rate. This winds up being very close to their initial offer in terms of net. Their reasoning? If they start me off making that, well, that's a lot of money annually, and if I ever went full time, I wouldn't accept a pay cut.

Do these people negotiate like this with their plumbers?

They also sent me a contract. It's a contract for people in their field, not people in my field. There's all sorts of insane stuff that needs to be taken out. Lesson learned: when I counter offered, I should have sent my own contract. At least I am learning more about how to do contracting and negotiating the right way. This stuff seems so obvious after the fact. I feel like I have the negotiating skills of a five year old. How do people learn this stuff? Why are some people so polished while other people are like me?

I sent my friend a list of requested changes and five minutes later sent her a note telling her that if it would make her life easier, I could just say no. I really can't see this going anywhere good.

In hindsight, I wish I had been clearer about only wanting to discuss a contract option. I kept playing along with the full-time job thinking I could get some contract work. And the more I got into this, the more I realized I did not want full time work, especially with these people.

I also should not have named an annual salary when I pitched the three day week, knowing that they were planning on prorating it - but I expected prorated benefits! Was that really so stupid? They are treating this as a temporary arrangement before I go full time, but I am trying to set up a part time arrangement I can live with.

I feel so horrible about the role my friend is now playing in this. Apparently the guy I have been dealing with is not the only disorganized person. The HR person is also clueless. My friend, who is not even the hiring manager, has been putting together these contracts and taking the lead in negotiating with me.

I do need to figure out how to stop my rumination. I am positive that I have spent more time and energy worrying about this situation than I will actually spend working there. This is a very negative pattern in my life.

I hope you have a nice, relaxing weekend that doesn't involve a lot of strain on your bum ankle or wrist or any more sugar headaches

Oh wow... ! (Sorry, I feel like I start every message like that! But every time you tell me more about the company and the situation, my jaw just drops!)

So, they're offering you less than what you made on the work that you just completed with them? And trying to explain that away by saying they hope to bring you on full-time later, and if they paid you what you were already being paid, they'd have to cut that (later!) to hire you full-time (later!). Oh geez.

I'd probably just point out that you had been paid $X/hour for the work that you just did for them, and that's your going rate for contract work, and you're unable to accept a lower rate at this time. End of discussion, and they can take it or leave it.

But again, that depends on whether you can afford to not take this job...

I think it IS good that you got some practice, and are learning how to deal with negotiations a bit. I find it hard too, I think some of it is that you learn by doing.... just like you're doing now. You have a bad experience where your client doesn't know how to write a contract for your services, and so you go out, write up your own contract, and next time just hand it to them... it saves them the work of having to figure it out, and makes sure that you get your terms in front of them.

I also think some people are just naturally talented at that stuff... Awhile ago, I was reading about "talents" or "natural abilities" - fascinating stuff - trying to figure out what I should be doing. I think for some people, they just do it. Maybe they don't get as stressed, or maybe it's not as important to them, or maybe they just think of it as a game, or maybe they have tons of experience from an early age? I don't know... I know that I find it awful too... and very stress-inducing!

That said, they had already agreed to your contract rate. They had no problem paying it. You did good work for them... otherwise, why would they want to hire you to do more? I don't know, I think I'd stick to that line of reasoning. It wouldn't hurt if you could point out how you're going to save them money... i.e. "You'll easily save x-times the amount of money you'll pay me with the improvements that I can implement for you, plus.... (other advantages, like saving time, avoiding lawsuits, etc.".

Good luck, and I hope you're able to put it out of your mind for a bit and just relax and enjoy the weekend!!! At this point, they're not actually expecting you to still report in Monday, right, since nothing's been signed?

And, thanks... yes, the fall was scary. I sort of had to just lie there for a minute and breathe until I could get up, then I got inside, and had to lie down on the floor in front of the door again (because I thought I was going to pass out, again!). Ugh... and I just unwrapped the bandage from my foot/ankle and it's really really purple and scary looking!

But, on the bright side, I can actually put weight on it... I just have to be careful about how I move it, and I can walk with less pain than the last time I sprained something. My poor (opposite) knee is bruised and scraped up too. And, I'm feeling icky... I had been walking regularly and it helped me feel better, get fresh air, and helped my mental health stuff... and now I need to hold off until I let the ankle rest a bit, I think. I just don't want to strain it more when it needs to be healing. But I really need to get some air and some sort of exercise...

Take care! Hope you have some fun this weekend!

Someday I will learn not to start typing a reply and leave it overnight to be lost

I hope you're finding ways to get outside without damaging your ankle or knee any further. It's *such* a bummer to injure yourself like that when you've recently gotten into the outdoor exercise habit. I agree with you - the fresh air makes a HUGE difference. Maybe slow microwalks or outdoor yoga or just sitting outside observing could have a little of the same effect?

This offer is their final offer. My friend was pretty clear on that. The initial agreement was between her and I. She didn't have permission (but she had authority). It was charged to her budget, her department.

I really hope that she is not upset with me. I can tell that she is frustrated with this whole thing. She has not replied to my emails and didn't pick up my call just now. They did want me to start on Monday. I said I would, but we are getting another huge storm and I really can't sign this contract the way it is. There's a line in there about providing free warranty service for a year after the engagement ends!

Do you think that you have talents or natural abilities? I am not sure about that stuff. I feel like my talent is saying that I want to do X and then doing it, where other people wouldn't. I feel like I am good at skills acquisition or 'faking it.' It makes it really hard for me to identify myself. I do X and Y, but I don't think of myself as an Xer or Yer. I don't know how common it is to feel this way?