Feel Trapped Into Accepting Job

I just spent five hours trying to come up with a response. The amount of time and energy I am putting into this problem is so inappropriate. I really need to stop this.

So I said I'd be happy to meet, gave clearly defined parameters about how much notice I'd need for a meeting (no one day notice, thanks!), and then pitched an arrangement that would suit me (1-2 days per week) - everything framed in terms of meeting their needs and solving their problems. We'll see.

I do think you are right that the inability to deal well with craziness/mixed messages is mostly an internal issue. For me it has less to do with internal stability than just a lack of understanding or confidence that I understand what's appropriate/reasonable to ask for and what isn't.

One of my current goals is to be more proactive about clearly asking for what I want, without getting too involved in the drama around whether or not my desire is reasonable or if anyone is willing to accommodate... and that is why I am so annoyed that I spent five hours this morning on that email.

As a culture, I feel like we are moving towards a tendency is to write a bad review of a restaurant on our iPhone as opposed to requesting that our dissatisfaction be addressed on the spot. I don't want to be part of that. It's not efficient and doesn't make anyone happy.

It was a step forward to put the offer out there instead of just saying to myself that they will never accept it, so what's the point. I do think that we can find that internal stability or whatever it is - it just takes practice?

I'm so glad you are getting more work - especially if it's more interesting than what you were doing. I hope the transfer to the other team is still a possibility! This deal you describe where you have to be on hand for a call that may or may not come is one of the things that turns me off the most about tech.

Too funny -- my life as a soap opera, with constant intrigue.

I just heard back from my friend - I'd forwarded a copy of my response. Now a lot of what she said has become clear. She is including restructuring this position as part of a larger proposal she's making in two months. I bet that's why she told me to turn down anything full time. I can also see now why she was discouraging me from issuing a flat out no. Ha ha, I hope this is all vague enough that no one ever recognizes themselves.

Oh wow! I get the "five hours typing a response" thing... yup. For important stuff like that, I tend to get painfully detailed and analytical about my word choice, do lots of editing, and then end up creating typos from all the editing But, still.. Yay! Awesome that you were able to put together a response that clearly articulated your needs and boundaries. (Ugh, especially around last minute meetings!)

I think that's a great, and very worthwhile goal! (I could use a goal like that!) I know that the time spent on the email is annoying... but.... but the good part is that you still got it done. And you got some practice in saying what you want/need. And, now that you're annoyed about spending five hours on it, NEXT time you feel yourself sucked into doing it, you can think back to now, and tell yourself, "OK, I want to do this - but I don't need to spend five hours on it!" and maybe set a goal, like getting it down in one hour. (Or 2, and you can shorten it each time). So, it's a step in the right direction. Baby steps, right? Steps in the right direction will still get you where you need to be, even if they're tiny improvements each time!

That's a great point about people writing bad reviews, but not actually taking action to get their issues resolved. You're right - it's easy to complain after the fact, but that doesn't give people the opportunity to fix the issue. It won't always work out, but if we don't give the business/person the opportunity to make something right, we could miss out on something really good over a simple, easily fixable mistake.

re: Internal stability... I hope we can develop it! I'm not sure! I don't know where people get it from. For me it feels like... some people have this internal sense of who they are, or what's right/ok/allowed, whatever. And it's solid and unwavering. No matter what other people do or say, they don't lose that thing on the inside. For me though, there's nothing solid there. My insides change with the winds, it seems. I talk to one person, and I think one thing... I talk to someone else, and everything changes. It kind of sucks, and I probably need to think some more about what this is, and mention it to my therapist (though he probably is already aware of this, I'm guessing.)

And - wow -that is crazy (what you found out from your friend). Ha - nothing's ever simple or straight forward, is it? I do hope it all works out for you! Two months seems like a long time to wait though!

Thanks for the good wishes on my job! I still haven't heard back from the woman that I sent the samples to, so I'm nervous that maybe they were awful. Hopefully she's just been busy. I had a meeting today for the project that's starting back up, and it doesn't look like there's going to be much work for me, at least in the first phase, so that was a little disappointing. But, these clients change their minds a lot, so really, anything could happen. Always something... I'm going to play around with a design tool our team has started using, so I'll at least be able to use that competently if the opportunity comes up

Who knows?! It's all crazy, isn't it?

I'll have to come back for a proper response, but I just wanted to vent about the latest discouraging development.

I heard back from the guy. He ignored my request for a meeting scheduled 1-2 weeks out and sent a bunch of details about his schedule for next week - but the meeting is supposed to be with a bunch of people, including some from overseas. He's going to arrange a meeting today for Monday when he hasn't been able to arrange one with a week notice 3x so far?

The only comment he had on the rest of my carefully worded email was that everything should be on the table.

I think I need to be done. I've wasted far too much time and energy on this. I am just picturing working with someone like this, even as a peer, and it's making me unhappy.

I am getting so annoyed with this person that I am going to have to call this whole thing off. I replied to his earlier message with the only day that I was available next week based on his schedule limitations. I said that I was free in the morning but had a meeting in X city, 30 minutes from their location, at 3:00. He comes back asking if 2:00 works. Really?

(((Hvert))) I'm sorry. It's so insanely frustrating to deal with people like this. It's like they don't bother reading anything that you wrote, especially frustrating when you took so much time to get clear about your needs and expectations.

That thing about asking if you could come in for a 2:00 meeting when you needed to be somewhere 30 minutes away at 3:00 is *ridiculous*. Of course it doesn't work! Not unless he's only planning to meet with you for 15 minutes

Sometimes it's worth giving people a second shot. Sometimes, they're genuinely busy or overwhelmed or not good with details, so they miss something you've said. But it seems like you've given this guy more than enough chances... this isn't the first time he's acted in a way that seems to totally ignore what you're saying.

I'd assume it isn't malicious, but that that doesn't matter. It seems to be something he has no control over (maybe it's demands of the job, maybe it's his personality, maybe he just wants to make you uncomfortable by giving you impossible hoops to jump through). None of that matters. It just seems that he's giving a super clear picture of what he's like to work with, and it's not good! (The reason I say "not malicious" is, for me, to not get angry about it... it's not worth letting yourself get worked up over, more of a "this is the way it is, so now I can make my decision based on this information!").

I hate to see you keep torturing yourself with this guy and company!!! I hope you can just cut the cord and maybe move on to looking for something that will be a better fit?

Good luck!

Thanks for the empathy, it's nice to have! I'm calmer now. I really just don't want to waste energy on this since I am pretty sure I don't want it. I am going through the motions because it seems like it would be 'good for me.' It's interview practice and an opportunity to stick up for myself when dealing with a difficult person.

I agreed to go in next week at a time that suits me. He confirmed, but neglected to send me the agenda or tell me who I will be speaking with. I am not even sure what we're doing - is this an interview or a meeting to talk about my proposal? He's going to get another email.

My friend has another small contract project for me. I'll be doing that next week, the day before the interview.

I also feel like some people have a much more solid sense of what's right/appropriate with these kinds of situations than I do. It seems like 95% of men are just born with some kind of sense. I've seen my boyfriend just decide one morning that he didn't like the temp to perm job he had (for good reason - they weren't nice to him), so he just called in and quit. I could never do that! But, really, it was *good* to quit. He had money in the bank, an in demand skill set - why stay and be abused?

Insides changing with the wind is an interesting description. Is it a kind of wavering of should I do this or should I do that? Where you are just not sure which you should do and sometimes feel more strongly towards one than the other? Or do you mean something else?

I'm sorry that you don't have a more significant role with this project (yet). And I think you are right that the other woman is just busy -- this could be her first week back from vacation, and it can be crazy trying to catch up. Waiting is hard!!

You're welcome, and it's easy to empathize with what you're describing. It would seriously drive me crazy too!

And, ah! I'm sure you mentioned before that you're doing this for the practice, and I forgot it. That makes sense, though you're a braver person than me! I don't think I'd have the patience to deal with that guy, even if just to practice standing up for myself. But, good for you! And good luck with the mystery meeting next week - at least you know WHEN it is... ... although that is pretty terrible that he hasn't told you what it's about or who you'll be talking to. *sigh*.

Glad to hear your friend has another project for you too!

Wow - that's a great story about your boyfriend. I wonder if it's "confidence"? Guys seem to have too much (i.e. they're over-confident, even when they shouldn't be!) and women seem to have not enough. Years ago I caught an interview on the radio, the guy was a soccer coach who had coached both men and women. The interviewer asked if there were any differences and, silly me, I was expecting him to say something like, "no, not at all, when you get out on the field, gender doesn't matter - they're all athletes competing and doing their best."

That wasn't what he said! He said, "Oh... YES." He then explained that if he walked in to the men's locker room before a game and said something like, "Hey guys, everyone has been doing a great job, but there's ONE person who isn't really pulling his weight and needs to step it up..." - that *every* guy in the room would think they knew who he was talking about, and it was NOT him. If he said the same thing to the women, *every* women would think it WAS her.

It's weird, but it rang true for me... and I've noticed it (about myself) in other contexts. I take piano lessons, and one year my crazy teacher (not a native English speaker) sent out a mass email telling all his students how wonderful we'd done over the year, and how he had enjoyed working with MOST of us on our music. LOL. Thankfully, I had a long enough history with him at that point to know that it couldn't possibly be me that he didn't enjoy working with, but it sure was hard to not think that when I first read it!

So, to tie that in to your story about your boyfriend... I think that many guys seem to have that confidence, even when it's not well-deserved. So, it's easier to quit when something's not working, because they don't anticipate trouble finding another job. Maybe? It's a theory anyway.

It's hard, either way.... I know I was feeling pretty rotten Friday about my job stuff. We're interviewing some new folks next week, so I looked at their online portfolios... and thought, "omg, I am never going to be able to get another job. I better not screw up here, because no one is ever going to hire me!" *sigh*. (They're both more graphically inclined than I am, so their websites look nice, and modern, and do a good job of selling their skills. I don't even *have* a job-oriented website at all!)

re: "Insides changing like the wind"... I think it's a little like you described it, where if I'm trying to make a decision, I go back and forth (many many times) and don't ever feel sure. I think, with decisions like that, I just need a LOT of information to feel comfortable, or sure, and so I try to respect that and do what I need to, but it's hard. I also think that part of it is, I'm pretty good at seeing other people's points of view.... which seems to make it really, really hard to find what *I* actually think. I sort of.... over-empathize maybe, and end up pulling in everyone elses' opinions... and don't do a good job of finding something solid for myself. Maybe not always, but often enough...

So, for the work stuff... it might look like this. My boss is being a jerk. I get upset. I'm genuinely upset about something recent he's done. Then he calls me, we talk, and I find out that he has 20 things he's juggling, plus just put his mom in hospice, plus is getting yelled at by his boss and is trying to not let his boss yell at the rest of us. OK, I'm not mad at him now... I kind of feel sympathetic and want to defend him. But, then I talk to a friend on the team, and she's upset about not just the recent stuff, but about bigger patterns in his behavior and points out that even if he does have personal stuff going on, that some of the things he's doing aren't appropriate... so I pick up her viewpoint and am angry again. Like that...

I'm not sure where the line is between appropriately changing your mind because of new information, versus over-empathizing and just being like an emotional chameleon - picking up and reflecting whatever the last person you talked to was feeling? Oh yuck... sorry, thanks, I hadn't really thought about it that much... so I'm kind of figuring this out, and oh, boy. It sure doesn't sound good!

And honestly, I *feel* so fuzzy and confused about "how I am in the world" - that I'm not even really 100% sure that I do that. I think I might... sometimes... but... maybe not always. I don't know, and the more I try to think about, the fuzzier it all gets.

Anyway.... there's my bit of craziness for tonight! Thanks for the good thoughts about work, still no word back from the other woman. But, I'm learning a new design tool now for my current job, so that makes me feel like I'm doing something useful for my future, which is good...

I hope the small project goes well, and good luck with the meeting! I hope it leads to some good practice and "aha" moments for you!

I sent him an email asking for a copy of the agenda and the names of the people I'm meeting with. According to my friend, he only has her and her boss on the invite for 90 minutes, no agenda - and she can't be there long because she has another meeting. This is very different from the conversations I was having with him before the holidays, when he had a bunch of people he wanted me to meet or interview with.

The example the soccer coach gave is really interesting! That is very much how I think - and my BF agreed that men would know who that one person was. He was astounded that I agree women think this way - he thought it was a misogynistic comment about women making everything about themselves.

Few women would send out an email like your piano teacher, too. I can't believe he put 'most' instead of 'all!'

I think you're right, that the abundant confidence means that they don't worry about whether or not they will find another job. I don't think the question of finding another job even occurred to my BF. He wasn't in dire straits and could easily afford to make that choice at that moment, but I am pretty sure he would have done the same thing anyway.

I do think back to that example frequently, just to remind myself that I don't have to put up with BS. Life can work out just fine even if you say no to mean people. I think it works out even better, really.

I would be pretty disappointed that the team is hiring new people when there's not enough work as it is... and if you don't have a portfolio yet and have some dead time at work, well, that sounds like a match made in heaven

I also have that problem where I can see where other people are coming from. It would be fine if everyone else were that way, but most people aren't, so I just wind up feeling sort of annoyed that no one has the same consideration for me as I have for them.

Do you think your boss is manipulating you when you are upset and he starts talking about his problems that aren't really your problems? I guess I have had a bad feeling about him since that synergy comment. He's probably getting yelled at by his boss because he's incompetent - which isn't really an excuse for yelling, but it would be nice if someone recognized his performance issues and helped him get back on the right track.

I think I am getting better at shutting down my 'feel sorry' feelings. It's such a long process and it makes me feel like I am being too mean, insensitive, and selfish. At the same time, it's really freeing in some ways. I've found that if I am doing things because I feel sorry for someone, the resentment just builds up until it bursts. It's just so much nicer to catch it sooner - I can stop doing stuff I don't want to do, and if the relationship isn't going to go anywhere, might as well admit to that now.

But I still do it. My friend has been saying some negative things about the person I've been dealing with. She said something about how his not sending out an agenda was yet another example of why he shouldn't be responsible for this role - and my first thought was, wow, maybe I've been too negative about this guy, I don't want to get him in trouble!

I hope he gets back to you soon with the agenda and information on whether he's inviting anyone else! That does sound weird... if you're friend isn't going to be able to stay for long, and if she's crucial... I wonder if he's going to end up needing to reschedule it? Want to take bets that he tries to reschedule with minimal notice to you? Probably for a day that you've already told him doesn't work!

re: The soccer story, I know, it's crazy isn't it! And it's so interesting to me that we're all pretty much in the dark on how the other gender thinks and communicates! If you ever get a chance, there's a great book out there by Deborah Tannen called, "You Just Don't Understand" (I think that was the one), that talks about how gender affects communication. Very cool stuff. She talks about how there are 2 needs we have with communication: connection and uniqueness, and they're at odds. Women tend to focus more on connection (downplaying differences), men focus more on "uniqueness" or status, and play UP their differences, talk for longer, tell more jokes, basically try to take over in a conversation to establish where they are in the social hierarchy.

That sounded nuts to me... so I had a guy friend read it, and he confirmed it, and was blown away by the female version (he had no idea that we were using totally different models of communication). It's really fascinating, though I don't quite know what to do with it!

And you're right, few women would have sent out an email like my teacher. I give him a little leeway since English isn't his first language, but seriously, I wonder what he was thinking!

I agree that life can be even better when you say no to mean people (!), but oh gosh the confidence thing just seems to trip me up every time. It's so hard! And, I've been at this company for so long... I'm pretty invested in being there. I have an older friend who told me that at this point it really makes sense to stick it out until I retire (pension, medical benefits!) - but it could be 12 or more years until I qualify for that (and I'd still be young, I'd have to retire then find another job I think!).

I'm just honestly sick of working. That feels awful to say, but it feels like there's just never enough time in the day to do everything you need to do to just *maintain* a life - all the cooking, cleaning, exercising, getting proper sleep, and doing a full-time job. On top of that, I've been reading about how important socializing is, and realizing that I really *need* to get out and find more friends. My T is telling me that I need to add "fun" to my to-do list on top of all this. Plus I want to explore other career options (like the writing!). I just don't see how people make it work - it's depressing! *sigh*. I think it would be less stressful if I had work that I loved... or even just work that I felt ok about and that filled up the day but... *sigh*.

So, yeah, I'm now working on the new design program which at least keeps me busy. I've got an idea for an app that I may try to design... it probably won't end up being anything, but who knows... I've become friendly with one of the developers on our team, and I might chat her up and see if she wants to try building it out on the side That could be fun. But one step at a time!

re: My boss, no, I don't think he's being manipulative. He's a pretty emotional guy. I believe that he wants to be a good boss, but he's not at all detailed oriented, and he's pretty unorganized. And, he is finally getting to do fun projects himself after years of really bad management... so I think he's busy and excited and happy with all that, and just not interested in "managing" us at all right now. He wants us to manage ourselves, and for the most part, that's fine... but we can't go out and get work (I can't, anyway) - as that all comes from above him. So, in a sad way, he's being a bottleneck! And people just don't seem to realize it... It's depressing. I hate to say it, but it may also be that I'm just not kissing up enough to him ... I've worked with him for a long time though, and am really feeling over dealing with all his stuff.

For example, at the end of last year... we went a good 3 months without any sort of team meeting! 3 months of just... silence! Is that not crazy? I know that his boss meets with his team weekly, AND does 1-on-1 meetings weekly as well! My boss does NOT do 1-on-1s. Previously boss (re-org that didn't stick, long sad story!) did them 1x/month, and it was really nice to have time set aside to talk, and that guy (who is gone now!) really seemed invested in doing what he could to help us all out with our careers. *sigh*

Anyway, yeah, it's a bit depressing to be interviewing new folks for the team. I mentioned it to my boss and his boss, sideways, in an informal meeting on Friday, and think I might have been a bit too... emotional, maybe? It just sort of exploded out of me, which is never good.

It just feels like there's no future for me in the group that I'm in... so I need to do *something*. But, I'd like to stay with the company for the benefits... so if I don't get a spot in this other woman's team, I'm not sure what I'll end up doing...

re: Turning off the "feeling sorry" feelings... that makes sense! I've been able to do it, rarely, with people I don't know well (basically being able to recognize that all the stuff they're going through is their problem, not mine, and doesn't change what I expect from them) - but it's harder with people I'm closer to, of course! And, that's funny that you were worried about getting that guy in trouble - I would have thought the exact same thing if I were in your position! I hope you can see though that really... he's getting himself in trouble... because he's really not acting very professionally or responsibly! That's not you, it's all him!

Hope you have a good week, and good luck with the meetings!

What I find weird about the meeting this guy has set up is that there's no reason for my friend to interview me. I worked for her for nearly five years! Also, he didn't invite her to the last interview this guy had set up - her boss did, in passing.

That's the second time I've heard about that "You Just Don't Understand" book this week, so it's definitely going on my list. Sometimes it's just nice to be aware of these differences to prevent future misunderstandings.

Staying 12 years at a company for retirement benefits sounds like way too much of a commitment to me. Nothing is guaranteed, especially that far out. If it happens, fine, but it's not enough of a motivator.

I wonder - if part of your problem is that there isn't enough contact between team members, and everyone is feeling frustrated about this, could you schedule meetings yourself? I have no idea if it's something you'd want to do or if you could do it - but your boss may actually appreciate it, and I bet your teammates would as well. If you're not up for that, maybe someone else on the team would take it over?

It's too bad that he couldn't step aside to let someone else manage the team since it sounds like he doesn't really have any interest in that.

I don't think there's anything awful about saying that there isn't enough time in the day to maintain a life and work. That's how I feel... but even without a day job, I'm still not keeping up with cleaning and exercising. Now that I've tried it both ways, I think it comes down to the choices we make regarding how we spend our time rather than how much time we actually have (to an extent).

I guess I just had this vision of how my life would be if I wasn't stressed about working - and the reality is that while I am much happier, I still find things to stress about, I still need to get in better shape, and I might even get less done now than I did before. I'm not sure. I would certainly choose a life like this over 8-5 in an office again.

Making an app sounds like fun! I need to get back to working on mine. It's been more than a year since I looked at it, not good!

Hi Hvert... long day, and I'm a bit "blah" here from work and therapy issues...

Definitely check out the book! It sounds like the universe is nudging you!

It's interesting that you still find things to stress about, even though you're not working. I *get* that... but... I don't know, I guess it depends on your situation. I had ~3 weeks off at Christmas, and for the first two weeks (before I started worrying about getting back to work) I felt SO GOOD. I was eating better, I felt like I had time to get things done, the house was clean, I was on top of things, I was relaxed... I just felt like I had the space to *be*. And, right now, I don't. Ugh. If I made more money, I'd outsource some of it (I'd love to get somebody to come cook for me, that seems to take a crazy amount of time/energy for me!). But it is what it is, I guess.

I know 12 years sounds long, but really... it's not. I've already been there 10 years. If I got moved into another group (a good group!) I bet it would go by incredibly fast. Time seems to do that these days. Heck, if my current job improves... the next couple of years could go by quickly. It's a big, huge company, and the benefits really are good - I know it sounds awful, but for example, I get a crazy amount of vacation time... and in a year, I'll actually get an extra week. I'll start getting off like... enough time to take more than a month off, paid. I just don't think I can get that anywhere else.

Anyway, I talked to a few people at work today and they were very encouraging about helping me get into more design work within our team, and willing to help out with me learning this program that everyone is using, so that was good. I'm still working on it, a little slow, especially as most of today was eaten up by interviews (and I have to go in for the next few days to do more, for different positions), but... it's something concrete I can do, and it's helping me fill up the time. So, not too bad.

I'm not sure if the problem is lack of contact between team members - that might be part of it, but really it's that my boss is too busy doing fun projects and has become a bottleneck for the rest of us. It's crazy, b/c he's been telling his boss that we don't have bandwidth to do more work *sigh*. Who knows what's going to happen... like I said, I'm hoping that having these two women (one is my boss's peer, so she reports to his boss as well) trying to help get me on more design projects will help.

It probably doesn't help that with all the therapy issues, it's just hard to be really energetic and engaged, you know? I almost wish I could just take off a year to just deal with my mental-health-crap! Maybe one day... but probably not the best thing for me right now! (Oh how dreamy though, to just focus on being healthy and happy... I wish there was a scholarship for that! If I were rich, I'd start one!)

And... yeah, that guy is weird (re: bringing your friend into the interview). If her boss invited her last time, maybe it was made clear to him that management thinks she needs to be involved, so he invited her this time? Or maybe, since you've worked with her, she's there to sort of be the bridge between you guys (though that doesn't make sense if you've been talking to him). Did he confirm that your meeting with him is for an interview?

Good luck with it! I hope it turns out to be valuable practice!

Another update: I just learned what the meeting is for. He wants me to talk with my friend and his boss about my background and their needs. If there is a fit, he'll schedule a technical interview with other people.

I feel like this is a step backwards. Wasn't that what our first conversation was for? Each step forward I take with this, I just become more convinced that it is never going to work and that I should have just said no immediately. I'm looking forward to seeing my friend tomorrow to discuss this.

Also, technical interview, really? I'm already doing technical contract work for you guys!

Re: extended time off: I'm not sure how to really explain it, but, yeah, I just find other stuff to stress about. Interpersonal stuff is a big focus, just like it was when I was at the office. I have fewer work problems to solve and I think I spend that energy fixating on kind of minor stuff. Maybe it will be different when I finally get back to work on something that might lead to self-employment income.

When I mentioned this to my bf a few months ago, that I felt just as unhappy now as I was when I worked, he looked at me with wide eyes and said that I seemed much better. I think if I went back to work, I would quickly remember just how horrible it is to have no time to do anything.

I've also found that tasks just sort of expand to fit the time I have. The busy/have to get this done/not enough time feeling hasn't really gone away. It's been incredibly enlightening to see that these problems I've had at workplaces really come down to the way I cope or don't cope with things. I have more bandwidth to realize this now, I suppose.

I'm really trying to deal with this situation the way a responsible professional would, but I have no idea what that looks like. Which is more responsible - to recognize that this situation is not going to work out or to cultivate a more neutral attitude so this sort of stuff doesn't phase me?

Having a boatload of vacation time and the seniority to use it is great! I'd caution you against selling yourself short by assuming that you can't get another gig like that elsewhere - not that you should leave your company just because your current boss is ineffective. I think we really sell ourselves short when we think that we can't do better. It's such a limiting way to think of our options. I feel like I kind of learned this the hard way, as I always thought that I was doing well, but in hindsight, I was selling myself short.

But it sounds like you are at a good company, just not with a good boss right now. He can't go on doing what he is doing forever... and I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that you hear back from that other woman

Update #627: I was scheduled to do some troubleshooting today. When I got there, I learned that the entire network was down, so I couldn't do the work. I spent an hour chatting with my friend and speculating.

It turns out that this guy's division is actually award winning. He has seemed very disorganized to me, and our theory is that he just has so little interest dealing with this that it gets put on his back burner. My friend thinks that this guy reaches out when her boss asks him what the story is - and that is why everything is always last minute.

Tomorrow will be interesting. My friend and I are on the same page. Her boss may be on the same page as well. We both think it is stupid to have me come in for this 'interview' when the three of them need to hash out what they want.

Hi Hvert...

That's crazy that his group is winning awards! Your theory sounds good... good luck tomorrow, it sounds like it should be interesting, at least. Although, if they all agree that they need to figure out what they need... I wonder why nobody said, "hey, why don't we hold off on bringing Hvert in for the interview, and spend the time tomorrow getting clear on what we need?" ?

My opinion... personally, is that it's better to learn to identify bad situations (where "bad" is defined by you, not universal) and to gracefully avoid them, without burning bridges or offending people. But, that's just my opinion... I think it would drive me crazy to try to deal with all this stuff, and I'd end up feeling not very respected and that would make it harder for me to do good work for other, potentially better clients. I'd want to find better clients that respect me, treat me well, and have interesting work to do - because that would help me keep up my skills, as well as help with the mental stuff. But I tend to be a bit of an idealist, and I also think the equation changes depending on how badly you need a job!

But, that's ok - you said you're doing this for practice! Can you practice trying to consciously relax and just "flow" with it? Sort of mentally detaching from this guy's craziness, and just letting him be who he is, without letting it make you crazy too? It's hard, but I think if you can practice it here (when it maybe doesn't matter much), it's something that could carry over into other areas of your life - maybe?

That's so depressing to hear that the "busy" feeling doesn't go away! *Argh!* Though, I swear I felt more relaxed on my vacation (until the end, when I realized I didn't get enough done!) - maybe there's some hope there somewhere. I also just listened to a thing by Martha Beck on "deep rest", and think I might try that... I'm not sure yet if it makes sense (I just finished listening tonight), but it sounds like a type of meditation which might be a bit easier for me to get my head around (the usual kind hasn't quite clicked for me). If you're curious, she references this site ( Intentional Resting | ) - and I think the site's creator has some youtube videos (Dan Howard). I haven't checked them out yet though, so they could be a bit out there

Thank you for the kind comments on not selling myself short. That makes sense, and is definitely something I struggle with. It's so hard to balance everything though - part of me thinks that, especially now that I'm trying therapy again, keeping the work part "stable" while I focus on the mental stuff might be helpful. Maybe. I still haven't heard back from that woman, it's been at least I week (I think?) and I'm not sure if I should reach out to her, or just assume that it wasn't a match. It's just so weird - as she had two people she knows and has worked with both give me glowing reviews, and one of those people is familiar with the work I sent over (and liked it). It doesn't quite add up that my work would be so terrible that it would completely scare her off!

In the meantime, my job has been less terrible. I'm working on learning the design tool, and helping with interviews which has been interesting. I talked to the other folks involved in the interviews about the issues of not having enough for current employees to do, and I was surprised that the one woman is facing a similar problem right now (she's the one who's a level above me, so I thought she was being better utilized). So she's aware, and has raised the issue up, that we need to be careful with bringing new people on, and make sure we have enough work for everyone.

Gosh, doesn't that sound crazy! We're fighting over work . All the managers above us should be dancing in circles to have such wonderful employees!!!

Thanks... and good luck tomorrow! I can't wait to hear how this unfolds!

Hmm.

I am not sure what to think.

I have a clearer picture of what these people want - which is still sort of vague but perhaps not the nightmare I imagined. I can work a part time schedule for a while.

I messed up in not naming a price. My friend had to leave the room and I felt uncomfortable having that conversation without her, especially given that I know they balked when other people asked for what I would be asking for. So it ended on a weird note.

They are likable, even the person who has been annoying me, but they have no trust in IT. The owner had a more humorous way of putting it than the guy I first interviewed with. That guy was much better behaved than he was last time.

I am back to not knowing what my next step is. The thought of committing to a day job makes me sick to my stomach, but I feel like I don't really have many other options. Why did I not start aggressively pursuing other options when I started this thread?

They want me to come in to meet with more people if I am interested.

They don't seem to want me to do contracting - they want to prorate a salary.

I think the most disturbing part of the conversation was when the owner said that it would be a growth opportunity to become part of the IT department at the parent company. I don't see that as a growth opportunity. I would rather be in charge of something at a small company than an underling at a large company.

Random, scattered thoughts. I kind of want a break from this. It's very frustrating. I have so many people telling me that I should just take this but I just don't want to. I still can't tell if the not wanting to is delusional or reasonable.

I'm glad you go through it, and it actually sounds like wonderful "practice", especially being able to name your price, even if they reacted to it. I think that even if it's high, it's really good to know what you're worth and what you expect, and to be able to state that. If they balk, that's their problem, not yours! So, it sounds to me like you did great!

Are you actually considering taking the job? Because, I thought this was all for practice? If it makes you sick to your stomach, that would be a pretty strong indicator to me that it's not in line with your wants, needs, and the direction you need to be going. Can you do an internal check and see if there are any options that feel better? Like... it sounds like getting the job, but contracting, feels better - I know that they don't want that, but I wonder if it would be negotiable at all? Maybe you could do a proposal that shows why having this contracted out is better for them as well (i.e. they don't pay payroll taxes, they only pay for hours you work, no benefits, etc.)

It's not too late to start looking for other options! I would just hate to see you get sucked into a job where you already feel sick about it, before even working one day! I get that if you *have to* - i.e. you need a job now, and can't wait for something else to materialize, but I really just hate to see anyone go into a position like that. Plus, if you already feel sick over it, won't that affect your work performance? (I don't know, maybe you can shove that aside, but for me, hating my job definitely seems to make me less effective at it, which means it usually only gets worse - I get treated worse b/c I'm not a star performer, which makes me hate everyone more, which makes me act worse, and the cycle continues...)

And, I agree... I wouldn't see the chance to join the big company as a bonus.

You said you want a break... can you take one? Put it on hold, get it out of your mind, and go do something fun and relaxing... I'm not sure where you're at (if it's too cold to get outside) - but a walk, ice skating, a trip to the library, a movie... something to get you away from all this and to give your brain a little break?

I so wish there was a better way to find really great jobs that are interesting, let us contribute in ways that are meaningful to us, have great people to work with, plenty of time off, and good pay Ah, to dream!

Bummer, I lost my long response!

I actually *failed* to give them a price. The conversation just took this weird turn. They're telling me that it is 'up to me' and that I have to decide what I want to do before we move on to the next round of interviews. I couldn't figure out what they wanted me to say, so I just said I had to think about it.

In the first interview, the guy had talked about 'outrageous salary demands.' My friend found out the salary range. I would be asking for something at the top end of that range. She thought it was reasonable, but who knows if they will at this point. They have to figure out that there's a reason they haven't hired anyone yet, right?

They were unexpectedly awarded a contract and have to ramp up in the next two weeks. It involves a lot of IT work. I offered to handle that on a contract basis - nope, not interested. Why? I just feel like there is this subtext that I am not getting - and maybe it doesn't really matter if I get it or not.

While I still find their attitude towards my profession disturbing, I am less concerned about interference. They have no idea what they are missing. They were describing some of their processes and I was just aghast - I think they are missing out on a ton of efficiencies. They have no idea what they are doing or what ought to be done.

The sick to my stomach feeling is probably primarily driven by the fact that I do not want a day job. Depending on how you count, I have had 2-4 years to build a business and set myself up so that I don't need a day job. I am now suddenly confronted with the reality that I have frittered away my time and very, very soon will need a job. This job isn't ideal, but the upside is that I could possibly work part time and still put away money for my next sabbatical.

But then there's something in the back of my mind telling me that I shouldn't give up hope, that I should get my ***** in gear -- but, really, if I haven't done that already, how likely is it?? Like today, I am writing this post, still in pajamas, and planning on driving out to a town 30 minutes away to check out a museum exhibit.

To top the night off, I joined a board of directors for a business association. Last night was my first meeting - and it was just uncomfortable in a variety of ways. I met someone younger than me who was talking about her various businesses in third world countries, and the spin offs she is planning this year, and I'm thinking, I do not fit in with these people...

So, long story not that short, I am just hit with this pervasive and overwhelming feeling of failure.

I sent off an email with a pitch and salary demands. I just don't want to drag this out when there is a good chance they will see the salary and say no. I talked to a friend this morning who has followed a sort of alternative path and I'm getting more used to the idea of being okay about working three days a week, not thinking of this as the end of my life, thinking of it as something I will do for now for some money.

And now that I am more interested in the opportunity, I am sure that I will receive an email saying 'thanks, but no thanks.'

It is such a weird thing. Have you talked to people about how you are unhappy with your job because there isn't enough work to do and had them just sort of look at you, or tell you that you should be thankful? And you sort of look at it and think, well, I *should* be grateful that I don't have a micromanager, and I can use my free time to do X/Y/Z... but there really is something stressful about the situation, something that's not easy to put into words. Anyway, that is sort of how I feel about my situation. I should be saying 'oh, how perfect! a job has fallen into my lap that will let me be partially free.'

I think you are smart to go for job stability while you are sorting out other stuff, as long as there are aspects of your job that contribute to feeling stable. A paycheck is a nice thing! Your boss sounds like a bad fit for his job, but not cruel or abusive. That's huge.

I guess my take on this now is that simply not having the stress of a job doesn't really fix what is wrong with me. The problem is not the stressors but my reaction to them. Even this situation, I just feel kind of crazy about it, like I read a lot of negatives into this that might not be there? I just expend all of this emotional energy on stuff and wish I didn't do it. That intentional resting concept should come in handy

I've been reading that book about male/female communication patterns, btw -- it's definitely interesting! It's been inspiring 'Wait, you mean men really think like this??' conversations

I would reach out to that woman. You have nothing to lose by reminding her that you are here. You were in touch just before the holidays, and it's not unusual for things to slip through the cracks. It's so much nicer just knowing than wondering, too. I am trying to come up with a downside to sending her a quick note or giving her a call and I can't come up with one! What is it that makes you hesitate?

Hi Hvert,

Oh no, I didn't realize that you weren't able to give them a price at all when you were there! But, it's still a good learning opportunity... you have a better feeling for how weird that stuff can be and how you react, so next time you're selling your services, you might prepare a bit differently (maybe?). It's a real shame that they're so bonkers, it sounds like they could really benefit from your experience.

I know what you mean about feeling like "I haven't done it, even when the conditions were optimal - so what are the chances I'll do it now." But, you know, we can always change our path. I guess the question is: do you really want to do it? I think starting and running your own business takes an incredible amount of energy, and an ability to go and hustle up business. I've often wanted my own business (and I have a couple tiny websites that bring in some affiliate money), but... honestly... I'm not sure I could deal with the headache of actually running a business. (Maybe it gets easier if you're successful enough to hire as assistant? Or marketing help?)

How do you feel about 3 days a week? Would that give you enough time to start pursuing contract or freelance work on the side? If you want to get away from needing a day job, I bet that could work... the 3 days a week would give you some steady income and a reference of sorts, but still leave you some time to do side projects and build up a client list. It's a thought, anyway. If it works, you could eventually quit the 3-days a week and do your own work full-time.

I think I'd love working three days a week (though maybe not with a company that didn't appreciate or understand what I do). I'd think that would still leave you ample time to relax, visit museums, exercise, and take care of yourself. Especially if you're able to get the salary you want, so that you have an income that you're comfortable with.

Awhile ago, I had looked into job sharing - where two people share one job, and both work ~3 days/week. I kind of loved the idea, but I don't think my company would ever go for that, and since I'm single, I'm not sure I want to live on half my salary. (And my therapy is sadly expensive!) It's an interesting idea though, and it seems to me that's a good way to still bring in some income and have some stability, while giving yourself time to enjoy life and take care of yourself.

Anyway, I don't think you should give up hope either. Just because you haven't done something doesn't mean you can't or won't. It's just a matter of priorities, and what you want to do. You might think about *why* you didn't do it though, so you can figure out what's blocking you...

Anyway, I think it's great that you were able to send them your salary requirements! It seems like they want you (since they keep pursuing you), so maybe they'll actually be able to meet them. I think that even if it's high - so what. You're bringing a lot to the table that they can't even recognize (though in that case, it might be helpful if you can articulate some of that - you know, if you had a way to explain to them all the places you'd actually save them money or headaches, for example). Good for you!

I'm glad you're liking the communication book! Cool stuff, for sure! It kind of explains alot, doesn't it... all those conversations with guys that just wouldn't let you get a word in edgewise, lol. I can't remember if it's that book or another one (same author) where she also talks about how some people come from families that pause while talking and others don't.

So that works like this... if your family pauses in conversation, you grow up learning to wait for a pause to speak, and expecting a pause, and not speaking until it's your "turn". If your family *doesn't", you grow up learning to just in to conversations even when other people are talking, and also not stopping when you're talking to give others a chance (b/c you assume people will interrupt when they want to talk).

When you get these people together in a conversation - oh yikes - pain. I come from a "pausing" family and find it so hard, especially with certain people at work (!), who will just talk over me (*sad!*) or not leave space for me to jump in. It's awful! (Hmmm actually I wonder if this is something I should talk to T about, maybe we can practice... he's a guy, so he can probably talk talk talk and let me try to interrupt - ha!)

Such interesting stuff though!

re: The job, yeah, it's weird. Some people definitely tell me that I should be grateful. I think my T might think this, we haven't dived into it too much, but it's stressful and crazy-making. There are so many reasons that it's not good, I think that there are a lot of good things one can get from a job (a sense of community, the feeling of contributing to something, feeling productive, feeling competent, learning new skills, being valued, etc.) and I think when you don't get anything to do - all that sort of goes out the window.

Anyway, I'm keeping busy learning the design program, so that's good. And, honestly, I'm spending too much time thinking about therapy stuff... it's going to be a long road for me, I think, and I'm really just getting started, so it's sort of overwhelming at times. It's easy for me to pick a therapy-topic and start googling - and to get totally sucked into reading about it (and waste a ton of time). So, maybe the job is OK for now . I'm enjoying learning the new program, even though it's a little frustrating at times.

re: Touching base with the woman... you know, I guess I'm afraid that she hasn't said anything because she's really disappointed in what I sent over, and doesn't know how to tell me. My friend hasn't been in touch either. So, partly I'm afraid of being a pest (being too pushy when she's busy with work) and partly I hate to put her in the position of saying, "I'm sorry, the work was not really that good... I'm not sure we can use you on this team." I did warn her that I didn't have graphic skills, so my designs are more information-architect-like, pretty plain, but very functional and well thought out from an interaction perspective, and she said she was fine with that.

I don't know, what do I say? "Hey there, I haven't heard anything since I sent you the samples... did you have a chance to look at them?"

What I want to say is to reassure her, like, "You know, I understand these might not be what you're looking for right now. I'm continuing to grow my design skills, and I'd love to keep in touch with you and see if there might be a better fit in the future." I don't know, maybe it's too formal. It's hard since my friend is good friends with her, and it feels like that relationship should be a bit transitive, but I don't know her that well... though she's friendly, we still don't know each other well.

I am really encouraged by the support of the two women on my team, who offered their help with learning this tool though. I think they both want me to be happy and want to help me get more design work, so that's good (one of them is a peer of my boss, so technically a level above me).

Oh well. Happy Friday! So nice to have a weekend! I'm trying to get back on my healthy-eating-plan (oh the pain!) and will probably spend most of Saturday in bed, detoxing from too much yummy chocolate this week! Hope you have a fun weekend!

I can see why you would be reluctant to contact the woman. It seems far more likely to me that she simply hasn't looked at them yet. Can you contact your friend? I wouldn't send any emails assuming that she has already decided that you're not a good fit - she may misread them and think that you are saying you don't want to work with them after all.

I guess I would probably send something along the lines of 'my vacation was so refeshing, now getting back to work, just touching base re: the samples, excited about prospect of working with you, i bring x, y, and z to the table, thank you so much for talking with me last month, etc.'

And hopefully you know from your friend exactly which x, y, and z will have the greatest impact.

My friend actually sent me an email I want to print out and frame - she wrote a novel about all of the strategic points I should include in my thank you/follow up and how my experience relates to them. It was extremely flattering. I had no idea how much she wanted me to work there. She has seemed sort of ... detached at times.

It was too late - I'd already sent something - but I am going to incorporate some of what she wrote into an email I send to the owner, since the last was just addressed to the guy badly managing the interview process.

I really like the idea of practicing conversations! I'd love something like toastmasters, where instead of practicing presentations, you get to practice plain old talking to people. I just don't come off the way I want - and sometimes feel like no one wants to meet me, like at that board meeting. Is it because I look sort of dumpy? Or something I say? I don't get it.

I'm glad that you've found so much support at work - that's such a good sign, and just a good feeling to know that other people care about your happiness - and think that it's the worth the time to invest in you and your job satisfaction.

Thanks for the advice. I've sent an email to my friend, but she's just moved across the country (with her hubs, handful of pets, and little infant!) - so she may not yet be up for answering emails . Ah, and I had already emailed this woman with the "I'm back from vacation and getting in touch!" - which is what led to us talking about the samples, so I can't say that again. I'm hoping she's just busy... last time I checked, it did look like she downloaded a few of the files (it's a file-sharing platform through work)... I'm just not sure if that's a good thing or not!

Wow, your friend sounds awesome! How helpful of her! It kind of amazes me how much help we get in landing jobs, or contracts, through people we know. And, makes me sad, because I'm not great at cultivating tons of friendships either. Do you think your friend understands what you can do for the company (i.e. all the things that the others don't even realize that you can do?). If so, that's doubly nice!

You know, you can practice talking to people anywhere, practically! A few years ago, I started practicing my "small talk" skills at the local grocery store . Now, there are a bunch of people there who know me by name and let me blab about stuff. And, I've apparently befriended a couple folks who work at a local takeout place. LOL. I'm so not normally chatty, but "practicing" really helped.

I did find that there are some people that just aren't in the mood for talking, for whatever reason. I don't think it has anything to do with me (or you), they maybe just are super introverted, or have other things on their minds, or are having a bad day. Nothing you can do about that except give them their space.

Were the people at the board meeting super chatty with each other? Do you know if they might have already known each other? When I did my acting class last year, it was interesting... there was a nice guy there that I did a few scenes with who was *wonderful*, but he didn't seem that interested in chatting with me at all before/after class. I thought maybe he didn't like me. At the last class, while we were all waiting for the teacher, he admitted that he is super shy and was taking the class to practice his social skills and interact with people! So it wasn't me! (It was a beginner's class, obviously, apparently we were all there to practice our social skills - super fun though!)

If you're feeling brave you could always try an improv class! I did a short one (like a 2-hour workshop) and it was amazingly fun, but I chickened out of a longer class, since they required you to go on stage and do a show at the end, even for the beginner classes. Not gonna' happen! But if it weren't for that, I would have done it - really good practice for just saying whatever pops into your head without editing!

And, thanks, it is really good to feel like there are people on my team who like me, like my work, and want me to be happy. It definitely helps, and I'm glad I had the chance to talk to them!

Good luck with your stuff! So, you've already sent them your salary requirements and ideas about what needs to be done? Now you're just waiting to hear back on that? I do think three days a week would be a really nice way to ease back into having a regular salaried job!

As I've been ever so slowly moving towards job-search ramp up mode, I've been trying to cultivate more community contacts. I really think that the way to land a job is via someone you know. I haven't hired a ton of people, but everyone I hired was recommended by someone else.

I am lucky because my friend was partner in a company I was with for 4-5 years. I reported directly to her for a while, so she is very aware of my capabilities. It's so freeing to have someone who knows my strengths and weaknesses want me to work for her! Whenever I get one of these moments where I think 'oh, god, I don't really *know* that well enough to say I know it,' I remember that she's seen what I know.

I agree about practicing chatting! I did that to sort of reacclimate myself to being social again. It really does help! I love that the guy in your acting class turned out to be super shy. I've used that kind of comment as an icebreaker at social events and find that so many people feel the same way. We just need one of us to talk first

The business thing... it just gave me major 'I don't fit in' vibes. Some of this may be hormonal. The majority of the people there didn't know each other. People were friendly, so I really need to stop being weird about it. I just don't project a professional/expert image the way I wish I did, in any context - so sometimes I feel like people just skip right over me as they are scanning the room looking for people to talk to.

The woman you've been talking to may be waiting for the right time. I had no idea how gung-ho my friend was until this week. It turns out that she wasn't sure if I was interested and didn't want to pressure me-- and she also was waiting for the right opening to broach the topic with her people. This whole thing has been a good lesson for me in not reading too much into a response/lack of response...

Yup, you are lucky that the woman who is advocating for you is a friend, and somebody who knows your work well! It makes it so much easier, doesn't it, when we have somebody else who can verify that we really are good at what we do I'm glad for you!

That's sort of how I felt with what's going on at my work, I trust my friend - who likes my work, and was working to "sell" me to her team. Still no word back yet though, but I'll take to heart what you said, this woman may just be working out things on her end. I'm not really sure how long I should wait to touch base with her... but I'm ok giving it a little more time.

I'm sorry that you felt like you didn't fit in with the business thing! I know what you mean, it's awful to feel like that with a group of people. If it's any consolation - I've had groups (a songwriting group!) where I thought I didn't click at all, but went back later and loved it, and got along well with people. (Oh, I so want to go back - but I never managed to finish any songs to bring in, and now I've got piano lessons on the night they meet - *cry*!)

The "image" thing is rough, I don't really give off a super polished/professional image either. It's just not me. But, you know, the image only matters for the first few seconds, right? Once you start talking to them, you can wow them with what you actually *know* - and that's better than just "looking good"

Are you going to go back and try again? You could always try once more to see if you make any connections... and if not, try something else?

Anyhoo... I had therapy today, so feel all kinds of unsettled and crazy! I need to throw myself back into the design tool and use it as a distraction, I think! *bleh!*

......how did u eat or pay bills without a job?