[desirae]

I had once posted a thread about Choice Theory, and I actually was surprised on the very intelligent opinionated answers. Some people were a little bothered, because they felt strongly about their diagnoses. That I completely understand and when I talk about Choice Theory my intention is to acknowledge, not offend or imply that you are wrong. I just wanted to say that from the beginning, so it doesn't appear that way.

Well, I was talking to my mother yesterday, and I had a chance to tell her about how I feel about her chronic crack cocaine addiction, and for the first time in a long time she actually listened me speak out about it without immediately defending herself. I told her that I understood her addiction and it's typicalness, but I didn't understand her choice. Many times my Mom has getting crack out of her system physically, but always seemed to make the choice to return.

I explained this to her, I said "Ma, once the crack is out of your system physically, it is then mental, and nothing but mental. I told her it is a habit, and her mind will convince her to return. I then told her that if she simply made the small choices like stay out of the "crack" neighborhoods, and maybe change her phone number it would help her. Just these small choices are significant, and as simple as making them.

My Mom of course defends herself with her fabricated and exaggerated addiction (crack smoking little devil on the shoulder I suppose). She claims her addiction controls every significant and insignifagant aspect and element of her existence. Of course she exaggerates. I believe if she was to ultimately make that choice, after the physical addiction, it would be that simple.

Personally I've dealt with addiction, still do, and will for the remainder of my life. But I remember after physical detox, mentally and emotionally I was a wreck over this. But I made the choice, that one choice, and it was that simple. Of course that choice took work, but once I knew what I had decided, to stay sober, I was willing to work my *** off for it.

How do ya'll feel about this. I love all your opinions, they are open and intelligent, do not be afraid to tell me how it is!...lol

[woods]

seems like you have things in order. you know what your doing. i mean i understand that drinking alchohol isn't soo good. but the good thing is you know that you can stop. and that you can fight for it.

i belive in you. i mean ive done alchohol multiple times. but i dont feel attached to it in any way. and ive done other things. like you said. its mental. are minds are amazing.

im psychology, and in class they were talking about patients who suddenly became blind or couldn't move. this was all due to the mind. its a place where dreams can occur and its also a place where they can break. its the individuals choice in all of this. anyway i just wanted to say,. good job takes alot to accomplish something like this.

[ster]

there are a lot of people that are unable to stop useing and just because youi di d it one way I don't think you are an expert in this area. I know from first hand experiance that for the first year I had to fight these thoughts and dreams. I Have seen where someone had a burning bush awakening and never had any thoughts of useing. If you do have experiance have you gone to speakers meeting or talked to others about this.This was a fight for the first year. The fact is addicts do not know how to keep the urge away. and some do not ever stop go out an ddie because the are unable to get away from it . Good luck You need to help your mother but do not enable her.

[shadowalker164]

Desirae…

The thing that trips up more addicts and alcoholics is the idea that they have any real choice over if they use/drink or not.

The testament of the ages is they do not. We all can chose not to drink or use today, but we can’t seem to make it stick long-term.

You are one of the fortunate few, you walked away. And you made it stick. Good for you, but you are among the minority. Most of us go on blotting out the pathetic nature of our existence as best as we can to the end.

Your mother in the grip of a disease more powerful than her will power. You may not believe it, but look at the pattern. She goes back time and time again. She has no real ability to say no and make it stick.

This notion of our powerlessness is the key.

But get a real alcoholic or addict to believe it, good luck.

Richard

[Perna]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90688&page=1

I tend to lean toward the fact that some addictions alter brains and brain chemistry, it's like saying all depression is wholly a choice and you just have to change to thinking "happy" thoughts. But I don't think we're smart enough yet to say which ones are mostly choice and which genetic or alterations of chemistry. My stepmother always scoffed and commented that the alcoholic didn't have to walk down the street the liquor store was on.

[desirae]

I agree that there is some sort of chemical imbalance/reaction deep in the mind and that ultimately addiction controls the subconscious, which makes the choice in most cases, without that person's knowledge. I've been there, played that game where I went back back back back....till back was pretty much no longer an option, it would have been death that time.

The reason I posted this is to not necessarily convince an addict to simply make a choice, but to acknowledge that the little choices, which are much easier to make and actually do, can be as simple as a decision.

I'll use my mother for an example. If she was to do these few simple things, like change her phone number, devote herself to keeping busy, and maybe talking with sponsors would help her. These decisions don't involve a lot of work, you could do them all sitting at the desk...ya know. But in most cases addicts aren't even mindful enough to realize this because what's on their mind is "how am I gonna get high, what do I gotta do to get high, how can I get some money, and how will I avoid the consequences of getting high." It's all entirely too simple, yet it's so difficult to get to that first step.

I'm sure some of you disagree, which is fine, I respect that. But from the point, in and out, I see it all so clearly now. All the things I had done back when I was using, and how simple it would have been to stop if I was willing to make a few simple sacrifices. It would have saved me from a world of hurt and suffering.

Thanks all for your responses....but answer me this, if you could describe addiction/alcoholism as a object, how would it appear?

BTW, I never once claimed I was an expert, but if anybody was to understand addiction, I definitly think it would be the addicts themselves...wouldn't you agree?

[shadowalker164]

In the movie “Raiders of the lost ark” The character played by Harrison Ford is tied to a stake as the Nazi’s open the arc. This wisp of smoke blows up to Ford and as he is looking at it, it turns from this beautiful woman to a hideous death mask.

That is how I see addictions of all stripes. Beautiful right up to the moment you tell it No!

On your other point desirae, yes, small changes, changing a phone number, taking another way home from work, etc. are all good ideas.

But I need to remember that I suffer from is a spiritual disease, and what removed that dame obsession was a spiritual remedy. Along with changing my old play mates, and play pens.

Richard

[desirae]

Good post Shadowwalker, comparing addiction with that moment was good and creative...I agree with that.

[Amerikasend]

I have some questions for you all. What is a spiritual disease? Shadowwalker164 says he has a spiritual disease, is that even possible? I don't understand how a spirit can get a disease.

How can someone be powerless over what drug or drink they decide to put into their own body?

If you think about it, you can't be powerless over drugs and/or alcohol. Can you all look at a bottle of alcohol? Be around it? etc... Sure you can. See all of you made a choice to go out and buy alcohol/drug, open it, drink it and so on. So you can't be powerless, you made those decisions over and over to do that. Nothing was making you do this, but yourself. You had a bad behavior.

[shadowalker164]

Amerikasend…
You bring up a couple of good questions, and I will try to answer them.

First good question;
“What is a spiritual disease?” and “how a spirit can get a disease.”

I would come to in the morning, not wake up mind you, but come to, and the first thoughts in my head were “when can I start drinking, how much can I drink and how can I get away with it.” Those thoughts dominated my mind. I could not unthink them. And I drank.

The next thought that was in my mind on some days was “I am not going to get drunk today, I am not going to make an *** out of myself again today. Not today.” And I meant it.

And yet by mid afternoon, I had just changed my mind, I thought a drink was a good idea. And once I start drinking, I drink until I am drunk out of my mind.

Knowing that to drink will mean my wife will leave me, my children will lose all respect for me, I will get fired from my job, or my liver will explode, I still CHOSE to drink. That my friend is the hallmark of my spiritual disease.

My spirit wasn’t sick, I was. I had put enough distance between me and this power greater than myself for this brand of madness to take hold.

“How can someone be powerless over what drug or drink they decide to put into their own body?”

I remember telling myself that today was going to be different, I wasn’t going to get loaded today. I had the power of choice. Or so I thought. But looking back on the choice I always made, to drink! I in reality had no other choice. I had to drink to preserve my sanity in the end.

“you made those decisions over and over to do that. Nothing was making you do this, but yourself.”

True enough. This disease, this spiritual disease, and it’s cure both reside within me. The madness that is active alcoholism, and this power greater than ourselves both reside between my ears. And I did have a choice. And that choice was change everything about me, or continue to drink myself to death. And that was just about the extent of my choices.

Amerikasend, I don’t know you from Adam, but here you are on a recovery website, and if I identify myself as an alcoholic, I don’t care how much will power I have, I will drink again. I always did. No matter if I believe it or not, I am, non the less, powerless over this spiritual disease.

It’s a good thing I do believe that little bit of truth about myself.

Richard

[Amerikasend]

I'm not trying to offend you or anything, but if you do get offended, than I'm sorry.

I still don't understand what a spiritual disease is or maybe I'm just confused. Are you meaning spiritual as in your spirit or soul? Is spiritual disease in the Big Book, I completely forget if it was. I don't own a copy of the Big Book anymore.

Do you believe alcoholism is a disease or a spiritual disease or both? I personally don't believe alcoholism is a disease. When I used to attend AA, I recall the people telling me I had a disease and the BB states that as well. My belief is alcoholism is a bad behavior. So, you probably can guess I don't agree with someone being "powerless over alcohol"

My belief telling some they're powerless or they have a disease is not responsible. Because some may take that as if it were true. They will go out and drink as if they were powerless over alcohol and also believe that they have no choice in the matter, because they were led to believe they also had a disease. I have met plenty of people in AA/NA that did just that. There's a South Park episode on that subject. If you're currently in AA, it may offend you.

In a post above you wrote "You are one of the fortunate few, you walked away. And you made it stick. Good for you, but you are among the minority" That is not true. There is an equal amount of alcoholics that stop on their own compared with AA/NA.

I believe its is the alcoholics choice each day on what they choose to put into their bodies. If they want to honestly want to quit, they will. Some AA members will say they tried to quit, but could not. That just seems to me that they didn't really want to quit that much or else they would have. Nothing is forcing them to drink, except themselves They didn't have to drink, some will say they did have to drink, so, they could function better. They're still making that choice to drink and may seem, as if, they didn't want to stop or else the wouldn't keep repeating the same bad behavior over and over.

To your last part of what you posted. It's fine with me if you want to label yourself as an alcoholic. If you believe you're powerless, that's fine with me.

There are alternatives to AA. Such as:
www.rational.org
www.smartrecovery.org
www.unhooked.com
www.secularsobriety.org
www.moderation.org

Those are just a few.

[shadowalker164]

Amerikasend…
When I read your post in this thread, I mistakenly thought you were asking real questions. That you were looking, with an open mind, for real answers, my bad.

Your list of alternatives, that is, the ones that don’t require a large outlay of up front cash for their help, is just fine with me. With the exception of that abomination, moderation management, of course.

My spiritual advisor, the mythical Don Juan once said,,,

"Any path is only a path and there is no affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you. Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question...Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn't it is of no use.”

[Amerikasend]

I meant a definition for Spiritual Disease. I did not ask for your experience, strength and hope on how you believe you have a Spiritual Disease. All you gave me was mere anecdotal evidence. I thought I was asking a real question to. You decided not to answer it, that's fine, you could of said you have no idea what a Spiritual Disease is.

I do like to consider myself open minded, but you simply did not answer my question. You based the whole definition on what decisions you made.

I have tried to understand why people in these 12-Step groups honestly believe they're powerless and have a disease from a bad behavior.

The only one of those alternatives that request money for their program is Rational Recovery. But, you can get their book at most libraries and it only costs around 20-30 dollars for their book, I think. It should even out or may be a better deal in the end. Considering to go to AA, you have to drive there each night you go. Meaning you have to put gas into your car to drive it. AA/NA also suggests you donate a dollar, they also highly suggest you buy the Big Book and the 12 and 12. Sooner or later that will pile up.

Yes, the founder of Moderation Management got into a jam with alcohol. She also left her group for AA. It's disputed if she got her dui while attending AA or not.

[zombiette]

Very interesting post desirae, and i have to say, i agree with what u r saying, as well as Amerika's points.i realize this may offend some ppl and probably isn't too pleasant for ppl still battling self-destructive behaviour to hear, so if u think u may be really offended don't read the rest of this! i have never had a drug or alcohol addiction, but i have had problems with anorexia and self-harm in the past and i believe the rationale behind these problems is much the same. nobody ever made me starve myself or hurt myself. i was not under duress when i did either, nor was i in a state of dissociation when self-harming. i was told (by a doctor) that i was going to die from anorexia. when she said this i laughed in her face and told her there was no way that would happen. i had a bmi of around 14 at the time, but after that statement i decided that i was going to pull myself out of this. i did within a matter of months. i did the same the around a year ago with self-harm - i decided that i was going to quit and on my first serious attempt lasted three weeks without it, after having been doing it on a daily basis. when i slipped up it was a conscious choice not to come back to reality and deal with the problem at hand, but to go for instant relief via self-harm. i no longer self-harm and although the urge is there occasionally i consciously choose not to. i'm not saying it's easy, but it can be done and i think too many ppl hide behind their diagnoses or blame other people, rather than doing something about their problem. i wasted my time waiting for some knight in shining armour to save me. if only ppl would realize there's no such thing as a magic wand! in the end u can make u better, others simply help along the way. ur only powerless if u choose to be.

[Perna]

All that glitters is gold. Glass glitters, therefore, glass is gold.

All addictions are diseases. Measles is a disease, therefore, measles are addictions.

Alcoholism is a bad behavior. Beating one's wife is a bad behavior. Have you quit beating your wife yet? That's what's known as a double bind, there's no way one can "win" that. If you say "No" (presumably because you never beat your wife in the first place so you can't very easily stop doing what you didn't start?) you look bad and if you say "Yes" then it looks like you were "bad" in the past and how could you?!

I think the problem is sometimes we're talking about apples and oranges and then decide fruit salad is the "wrong" answer. Why does anything have to be only one way or another for any or all people at any or all times?

I think AA works to get people working with other people, to realize one can't do it "alone." That's true because people were "made" to function a certain way, in relationship with other people. There's no such thing as a "self-made" person. You can't cook dinner for the children and work late to further your career at the same time, that takes 2 people. Even when we go belly up and realize we need to change our behavior, it's not because it doesn't work in the "vacuum" of our own lives only; zombiette needed her doctor to tell her she was going to die if she didn't change before she decided to change and then did. I think AA's "I'm helpless" is just another way of showing and agreeing with, of "listening" to "you're gonna die if you don't change" with it coming from another person. Until some people "agree" with AA's "I'm helpless" and stand up and say before other people, "Hey, I'm Perna and I'm a drunk" it's equivalent to zombiette's laughing in the doctor's face. Zombiette didn't stay on the same road she was on. She instead, agreed with the doctor who was selling her the perpendicular route. Some people are "defiant" and want to prove the doctors wrong and some people are more "compliant" and want to please the doctor or use other people's help. Neither approach is "wrong" or better/worse than the other.

[zombiette]

thank u Perna, that's really well said...different methods do work for different ppl and for me, admitting that i was powerless or anything along those lines would not have done much for me at all, b/c i am of a more defiant nature. h/ever for someone who is more passive or compliant it might, and i guess AA is proof of this. i'm glad that there are many ppl AA has worked for, but for those who it hasn't there are always other methods that might just put tyhem on the road to recovery

[Perna]

Yes, my brother was an alcoholic and finally went "cold turkey" after too many failed relationships, job firings, etc. He had all the "correct" excuses; had been to Vietnam twice, had a lousy/difficult childhood, I never blamed him for his alcoholism but there were a lot of lousy choices in there (hopping a train on the East Coast and going to San Francisco and then calling me on the East Coast to ask what to do, he only had $12.42 in his pocket, had been drinking all the way). I think at some points we are "powerless" to help ourselves or maybe only think we are but it doesn't matter which; it's "true" and everyone gets that way. I too could have made straight A's in school if I'd wanted to :-) Alcoholics and smokers, drug users, etc. are known for their denial and bravado that they can stop if they want. But they don't/can't. It's not entirely about will power/choice. A very few people luck out and get out of it that way but not everyone has that ability. AA is a tool to help and admitting one needs help when one does, never hurts. When I was in 9th grade my French teacher suggested I have a tutor, I was doing so poorly, and that really angered me but my mother got me a tutor and I liked her and did really well after that, I'd needed the "companionship" of another person. I don't know that going one's own way and toughing it out is necessarily a good choice, especially if one is a "loner" in the first place. I think here are more skills/things to learn by being part of a group process than just kicking an addiction. AA doesn't work very well but it works a heck of a lot more often than going alone. Same is true with dieting or any other human "behavior." We were meant to work/live with others.