[TgrsPurr]

I have a topic I've been wanting to bring up for some time now, but I'm not really sure how to word it properly. I ask that you bare with me as I muddle thru this and I definately don't want to offend. I'm going to use the first person...just because it's easier, but I'm talking about the illness in general.

When I am cycling, either up or down, do the things I do, say, think and feel still hold legitimacy to them? Say for example, I'm manic and I'm happy for no particular reason at all, my thoughts are buzzing by and I'm full of ideas. Or even, I'm manic, I'm irritable and out of control. Are the feelings and actions and thoughts considered valid? I understand that all feelings, actions and thoughts by anyone have some legitimacy, but usually there's a reason for it that explains the thoughts, emotions, etc...
Or at the other end of the spectrum, I'm hopeless, anxious and desperate, do those feelings become less valid because of the chemical imbalance in my brain?
So what I'm getting is, if things are the product of a chemical imbalance does that cancel out or void or lessen the validity, strenth and legitimacy of them?
TgrsPurr. xo

[nothemama8]

TgrsPurr, I myself think *we* still are responsible for what *we* say either way, *we * know after speaking that it hurts or makes others feel good, am I on the right keel here or way off base ?
Ang

i'm on a seesaw on that one, tgr...i think i do believe that it is me that is speaking or doing. ultimately, i'm going to answer for it... but sometimes i do think that the drugs affect my reasoning powers.......this is hard.....xoxox pat

[TgrsPurr]

You're on the right base Ang...but just so everyone knows, I don't believe there is any right or wrong answer to this question. Everyone is unique and it's in our uniqueness that we may differ from one another.
TgrsPurr. xoxo

[TgrsPurr]

I guess what I'm really asking is, do others consider our feelings, thoughts and actions completely valid? or do you think that on some level they're thinking "oh, she's manic right now, she's not really happy to see me, it's the chemical imbalance."? Or maybe they don't take my depression seriously, saying, "oh it's nothing, she'll get over it soon enough, it's just her illness".
This really isn't coming out the way I want it to, but I hope that you're at least getting the general idea.

There's also the flip side to this...when I level out and all is said and done, I WANT them to know it was the illness when I lashed out or behaved differently or spent a ton of money. Do I excuse my behavior and manipulate my illness to my advantage depending which side of the cycle I'm on? Do you?
TgrsPurr.

i come in one total package....i never say anything....unless i've been horrible, of courrse, but i'm just me and i can't change it.....so, i do the best i can and don't worry about my illness. if i did worry about it, it would ruin my life..........p

[nothemama8]

If ppl can't except me for who I am (all of me) then thats there lose, like I'vr said before with me and the girls we're like a box of chocolates you never know what or who your gonna get, hehe
Ang

[vacantangel]

I think, as for myself, I can say things that are way out of character to the person I used to be before my BP surfaced, when I'm at either end of the spectrum. My brother is not used to being around me that much as he doesn't live near me, so he hasn't had much exposure to the person that the BP (chemical imbalance) has changed me to be. My sister, who does live near me and to which I have a lot of contact with, is well aware and used to the way my BP affects what I do, how I react, and the things I might say. She'll often tell my brother, to whom I have more contact now, "remember it's the disease you're talking to, not ------". She's right, I'm not the same person at all before my BP surfaced a few years ago. My brother does not recognize me as being the sister that he grew up with. I've changed, and not in a small way, and not for the better.

Another example is that when I'm not in a depressive state, I can see that I have some good qualities about myself, but when I'm in a depressive state, which I am now, and very often am, I don't see any of those good qualities at all, my self-hatred has increased enormously. The distorted thinking caused by my chemical imbalance has taken over the way I see myself and even more so, the way I interpret the written word. It is a dangerous thing for me to communicate with someone only via the written word and not in person. It so often leads to problems with the other person. When somebody sends me an e-mail, etc, I either read things very literally or quite often read something into it that is not even there. But I see it and it doesn't matter how often I read it, I only see it through my own distorted thinking. This usually leads to problems between myself and the other person who wrote whatever it is to me. I'll never see the true meaning of what they intended unless they can either find another way of explaining what they're trying to convey or sometimes it can only be resolved by talking with the person directly in person or on the phone. The written word is very difficult for me. I so very often can put a whole different spin on something than what was intended by the writer. Sometimes when I read something that upsets me, I'll email it to my sister and ask her to interpret it for me because I'll never see it how it was intended to come across. If it is a post on a msg board, sometimes I'll ask someone else to read it and explain where I'm making my mistake but sometimes, they see it the same way as I do. I wish I was better with the written word. It gets me into so much trouble with relationships, often causing their demise. It is extremely frustrating for me to not be able to understand the true meaning of what is being said to me. Inevitably what happens, if this occurs enough times on a msg board, people will start to shun me and dislike me. I then feel alone, isolated, rejected, hurt, frustrated, abandoned. It will always affect my mood swings, sending me straight down to the underbelly of the abyss, often with urges that I have to fight and sometimes losing out on and I act out on them.

People have very little patience with me. I'm not 'easy'. They'd just as well write me off than to work on the misunderstanding with me. I'm too much work. I'm dispensible. I'm rejected. I'm abandoned.

This is my BP, this is not the me that used to be but the end result is that it is me that is being rejected, not my BP. They don't make the distinction, they couldn't be bothered, life is too short to waste it on someone who is 'harder' to deal with. I HATE being BP. It's ruined my life, it's taken my life away from me, it's taken my friends away from me.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble or go off on a tangent. I'm not even sure I even answered your question in the way in which you meant it. I'm very depressed right now, I don't understand a lot of the time when I'm in this state. Maybe I shouldn't even be on a msg board since I'm dealing with the written word.

One other thing, when all this happens, it also has a negative effect on the writer. It leaves them feeling hurt, frustrated, shaking their head wondering what they did wrong, and high-tailing it as fast as they can out of my life.

I guess, I should not get into any threads with 'real' subjects to them, but only ones that are light or just offer support to others, although that too gets me into trouble.

Damn, I'm still rambling. Is that a symptom of BP? I have it perfected.

I apologize for my long and probably useless reply that has probably nothing to do with your question. Just ignore me.

[vacantangel]

As long as my reply was I also want to add that this has worked in reverse too, where the other person doesn't interpret my words correctly either. As I think I said in my thread in the relationships forum, I've never been given the opportunity to try to convey the true intent of my actions or words, therefore this is another example of a person rejecting and abandoning me. When they don't give me that opportunity, it leaves me extremely frustrated, hurt and unable to find closure to the relationship. My words are most often misunderstood. I seem to also have a bad habit of choosing the wrong words to convey what I want or to not be specific enough to lead the reader to jump to a conclusion on their own, which up to this point has always been wrong.

So, in this case, I think the person is looking at me and not taking into consideration the BP.

Such is my life!!! My BP life. Do I use it to manipulate things? Not consciously, although I have often been accused of doing so.

Perception: Do we see ourselves as others see us? Not in my case. As little as I think of myself, I come across as a much worse person than I really am. Obviously that means I do not know how to express myself well. Is this the BP? I don't know.

[TgrsPurr]

I've had some further thoughts on the subject of perception....because my illness is very much a part of the very fabric of who and what I am, this my feelings valid, legitimate and true. I'm living it, experiencing it, displaying it, sharing it, affecting others with it. In any given moment it's my truth provided I'm allowing myself to be my true self and not be pretending as I suggested in another thread. Cause and effect. While I do make mistakes, hurt others, isolate myself, protect myself from triggers...I'm able to go back to ppl and make amends for my very real behavior motivated by strong emotions, either depression or mania. It really is no different than the times I'm in stasis or normalcy, not cycling up or down. I hope I've made some sense here. I find it difficult sometimes to articulate the thoughts and healing I have. Sometimes perception of what I'm saying is not well rec'd or comes across as I never intended. Intention is a whole other thread I'll talk about some other time, LOL.
Thank you for letting me share with you all who read this. TgrsPurr xo

[nothemama8]

I have found in the past when I'm not symptomatic and make ammends for my actions, if I keep it short and simple ppl understand and accept it better, if I draw it out saying woe is me I suffered so much ppl run the other way
Ang

[TgrsPurr]

You make a good point Ang. I tend to be long winded about everything, lol, like you all hadn't noticed that. LOL. I do apologize for that, it must get monotonous sometimes. I'm going to be more concienscious of this in 3d life. Sometimes I can't help it here because I don't have the advantage of body language, voice inflection and eye contact. All I can ask, is that you bare with me. xo to all. TgrsPurr.

[nothemama8]

I don't think your long winded, I'm talkin about when someone goes into a song and dance about "you have to give me sympathy cuz I'm the poor victum" our disorder is not us
Ang

[sqrlb8]

Wow, much has transpired here since first I read the original post. The question seems to me to touch on a rather vast area that is as meaningful to look at from the perspective of others as well as our own.

For me the reality of life, for the mentally ill as well as anyone else, includes the constant tension on our actions and words maintained by distortive qualities of emotion and history.

It's easy for me to see that because I cycle between mania and depression, people experience very different versions of my personality. Sure, there is a core, and I'm aware of it, I see it through both ends of my cycle, but no one else can.

Often, in hindsight, I find that what I meant may have been quite distorted by how I felt. Similarly, I can perceive the words and actions of others inaccurately for the same reason. So while person A is perceiving person B, and vice versa, each are perceiving the other both through their own distortions, and the distortions of the other. It's a wonder if anything is ever accurately "perceived" by either, it seems to me.

The big mistake I can make in perception, is to assume that in fact I "percieve" the "one and only possibe" meaning of someone's behavior or expression.

I think that by being confronted by our cycles and such, we tend to become more aware than many, that perception is actually a fairly imprecise thing. Your own embrace of that is expressed in a lovely way by your tenacity and devotion to clarifying, exploring, revisiting, inquiring. To my way of thinking, you can't really do better than that, to take hold of the fact that it isn't straight forward, and do the best you can.

In some way, it seems like your question is one that should burn in everyone's mind. We can't take perception for granted as far as truth is concerned. It's more dynamic than that, isn't it?

This is a great conversation, and I hope this contribution adds to it.

Yer way cool. tc.

[nothemama8]

Here I am again, good ole motormouth. I had a very good friend tell me once "What you give , so shall you recieve" meaning if you give negitivity you recieve it, if you give support you recieve support
Ang

[sqrlb8]

So.....If I give a crap.....I get.....?

[nothemama8]

You got it bushy tail
The only thing I won't do is give sympathy when someone wants a pity party
Ang

[TgrsPurr]

Sqrl, you make a very good point about perception and distortion whether the perceiver or the precievee (is that a word? or did I make another one up?). I agree that in my illness or rather through my illness perception of the truth, reality or intention can go right out the window. This has caused many a problem with ppl in my life, even the store clerk.

But that doesn't make it any less real to me at that point. I may come to my senses after the fact, then go make amends or clarify things because that then becomes my truth of the situation. Maybe I'm off base with this. I don't know. I have to think about that some more. I just know that I need some certainty in my life...I'm just that kind of person that some things I know that I know that I know. I need the security of that. Not in everything, just in some things. TgrsPurr. xo

[nothemama8]

I think I like the word clarify better than making ammends, to make myself clear I'm not saying I won't support someone when there down, what I mean is if the person is over acting then I can't feed into them
Ang

[darkeyes]

It is good if you let those who you may have "ruffled" a bit if they are close with you, but not obligated, but respectful.
I do not go for any of us Bipolars using the unwanted behaviour and the disorder as an excuse for anytime you did have a problem with a person or ppl.
My brother use to get away with it but finally his pdoc set him straight and my parents too. Sure in extreme, out of control episodes (but with right meds one should barely have an uncontrollable episode) if any at all.
I hope I am understanding what you are talking about, so easy to misread people and posts when not face to face or not knowing someone.
Everyone is unique, mild mania can be productive somethimes, and when mild one person may be chatty and nice and then some may get irritable.
I think even non Bipolar people get this way, personally I hate when people think that means a person is in episode mode, gee, if we looked at everyone, their emotions, and behaviours we'd be able to DX the majority of people in this world as Bipolar, as well as many other disorders.
My suggestion, just be honest, with yourself and others.
Apology for an outburst is okay I think, and appreciated by most, my brother during his rough spots had apologized to me and family, and was sincere.
We pleaded with him to not decide to stop meds. cause whenever he would screw around, be noncompliant then it was almost a guarantee an episode would be coming soon

I don't know if I just amde any sense in reply to your post, but I hope some of it was informative in some small way.
I'm wishing you lots of luck dealing with this, it's frustrating at times and I sincerely feel for you.
Okay, you take care now,

DE

[sqrlb8]

Oh if only we could have the certainty we crave...about anything. Lordy, that takes me right back to the "wonder" idea. I don't find certainty to exist in my own life except as the immediate precursor to acute disillusionment. But I "probe" continually, and try to accomodate the ever expanding bits and pieces of the puzzle of truth as they come. But none of them is ever the last piece. Perceiving eachother seems like that to me, that we get an idea of what is meant or intended, but given the shifting sands nature of perception, can never really experience the "exact" thing.

Still I come back too, to the idea that even while you express such a dilema, you so gracefully demonstrate exactly how to go about grappling with it; you go back and go back and go back, and do everything you can to clarify, get it across, understand. I don't know any other way. lol.

Such a good news bad news joke, bipolar.

[TgrsPurr]

I agree with DE that we ought not use our illness - bp as a reason to excuse our behavior, but instead to take responsibilty for our actions, verbal or otherwise. But perception CAN BE distorted through the eyes of cycling. A certain amount of reality can be losst, hope can be lost, pain...real or imagined...overwhelms the mind and emotions causing confusion and extreme anxiety that results in panic or lashing out. So, in that light, perception is the culprit.
I still need to think about this some more. Keep up the input folks, I'm liking this. TgrsPurr. xo

[vacantangel]

But if you're saying that perception is the culprit, and I'm not disagreeing btw, and perception can be distorted from our cycles, then we go back to the disorder being the reason? Isn't it the same thing?

[nothemama8]

Our dx is only a label when we're symptomatic what we percieve is how we act (or am I way off0
Ang

[TgrsPurr]

I know AG, I'm just trying to think it out and feel it out. I haven't come to any conclusions or absolutes. You make a very valid point though. More to think about and contemplate and turn it on its head and see what it looks like. I'm really just thinking aloud so to speak, helps me focus my thoughts. I'm "off" today, for the better and the worse, lol. TgrsPurr, xo.