[Secretum]

This is exactly the kind of thing that I shouldn't be obsessing over, but I've already started and I need answers. I have talked about my onset on here, making assumptions each time. I assumed that I was depressed, and I assumed that I was psychotic as a result of the depression. But today, I looked through the DSM criteria for depression and realized that at the time, I only met two of them. Not nearly enough to qualify as a major depressive episode, let alone enough to cause a break with reality! It's possible that I had psychosis alone, but child-onset schizophrenia/schizoaffective disorder is EXTREMELY rare. It also has a really bad prognosis, while I've managed to do relatively well. So, in an attempt to solve this riddle, I'm asking for your help. I'll walk you through my first "episode" in detail.

Before: From birth until 10 years of age, I was a happy kid. I had attention problems, and the other children often thought that I was "weird", but I didn't care. I had plenty of friends, and just loved to be around people. I was diagnosed with a seizure disorder when I was in third grade, and started seeing a therapist around that time for some of my "behavioral problems". (I flapped my hands and got into other people's personal space too much). But overall, I was very satisfied with my life, a happy child.

About a year before: I remember feeling "different" for the first time at age 10. I remember it distinctly; I was in line at Walmart, and I just felt separated from other people. Sometime close to my 11th birthday, I started developing OCD symptoms. I was obsessed with germs and contamination, terrified that I would start an epidemic and kill someone. I washed my hands 30+ times per day, until they bled (which was a problem for me, because blood was on my list of contaminated substances!). I also had some bizarre obsessions; I thought that a monster in my basement had kidnapped my dad and replaced him with a robot. If I didn't fold the towels in a certain way, they'd hurt him. I also remember being scared that my food and drink had been poisoned. The summer before I turned 12, I had back surgery. I believe that the stress from that may have made things worse for me mentally. Despite all of this, I was still doing pretty well.

The beginning: The first day of sixth grade,shortly after my 12th birthday, I got on the bus to sit by my best friend. She pointed to the seat across from her. She continued distancing herself from me, which made me feel depressed. I cried a lot, and felt worthless and guilty. I felt like everyone was judging me, including my family, my peers, and my piano teacher. Despite this, this period of low mood was much milder than the depressions I would get later in life. My academic performance was unaffected (in fact, I actually grew a lot intellectually during this time!). I never even considered suicide. My social life, however, was severely affected. I withdrew from all my friends, feeling that they all hated me. I STILL have social problems because I can't shake the feeling that no one wants anything to do with me. I also became obsessed with witchcraft during this time. My dog was deathly sick, so I put a spell on her to preserve her health. Interestingly enough, she lived until I was a junior in high school.

The scary stuff: This is the part that confuses me the most. One day I was doing my homework. I was bored, and I started wondering if people could be attracted to inanimate objects. I started talking to a slip of paper, that I named "Jeff". Jeff became my boyfriend, and soon became greater than just a slip of paper, but an invisible presence that followed me around everywhere. I talked to him about everything. He soon confided to me that he was really the Devil, but that that was ok because he still loved me. This didn't scare me, but it explained a lot to me, like why he was invisible. We continued our relationship. A few days later, I thought that we had sex.

I immediately felt immensely guilty for hurting God like that. I became hyper-religious, trying to make up for my sin. I read my Bible and prayed during recess, while the other kids played kickball. Soon it became clear to me what I had to do. I had to run away from home and become God's prophet, trying to convince other people to convert to Christianity. This made me feel really nervous, because I loved my family and had never been more than a block away from my house unaccompanied before. But God told me to do it... One Friday afternoon, I was at my kitchen table, praying. I heard a masculine voice inside my head say "Go". I knew who that was. Well, I was not strong enough to go...I ended up staying home and begging God for forgiveness. With time, the madness faded, but it took years for me to realize that the events I've described here were probably not real.

If you have questions, feel free to ask. I need help determining

A). If I was clinically depressed during this time

and

B). if I was psychotic (or just a kid with a really vivid imagination).

My pdoc doesn't know any of this (I was too scared that he'd think I was crazy). But during my next appointment, I think I'm going to tell him what happened and ask for his professional insight into those two questions.

[kaliope]

Hi, we cant diagnose here on PC...though it doesn't really sound like depression to me...I highly encourage you to tell your pdoc about all this. it is important that he know your history. I don't think he will think you are crazy. sounds like run of the mill delusion to me. but if you aren't honest with pdoc, he cant help you, so please, share what you have shared here. I don't think you have said anything to be afraid of.

[hamster-bamster]

Secretum,

What strikes me as the most salient point in your account is your dx of seizure disorders.

the combination of seizure/neurological disorders and mental health is a very complex, specialized field. You probably need to see somebody who knows more than a general p-doc about that specific combination. Psychiatry/neurology. I do not know how to find one. In Russia, there is a medical specialty called "epileptology", and those neurologists have narrow expertise with seizure disorders. there are also doctors who know both neurology and psychiatry. I do not know how to go about finding such a doctor in the US.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Secretum

This is exactly the kind of thing that I shouldn't be obsessing over, but I've already started and I need answers. I have talked about my onset on here, making assumptions each time. I assumed that I was depressed, and I assumed that I was psychotic as a result of the depression. But today, I looked through the DSM criteria for depression and realized that at the time, I only met two of them. Not nearly enough to qualify as a major depressive episode, let alone enough to cause a break with reality! It's possible that I had psychosis alone, but child-onset schizophrenia/schizoaffective disorder is EXTREMELY rare. It also has a really bad prognosis, while I've managed to do relatively well. So, in an attempt to solve this riddle, I'm asking for your help. I'll walk you through my first "episode" in detail.

Before: From birth until 10 years of age, I was a happy kid. I had attention problems, and the other children often thought that I was "weird", but I didn't care. I had plenty of friends, and just loved to be around people. I was diagnosed with a seizure disorder when I was in third grade, and started seeing a therapist around that time for some of my "behavioral problems". (I flapped my hands and got into other people's personal space too much). But overall, I was very satisfied with my life, a happy child.

About a year before: I remember feeling "different" for the first time at age 10. I remember it distinctly; I was in line at Walmart, and I just felt separated from other people. Sometime close to my 11th birthday, I started developing OCD symptoms. I was obsessed with germs and contamination, terrified that I would start an epidemic and kill someone. I washed my hands 30+ times per day, until they bled (which was a problem for me, because blood was on my list of contaminated substances!). I also had some bizarre obsessions; I thought that a monster in my basement had kidnapped my dad and replaced him with a robot. If I didn't fold the towels in a certain way, they'd hurt him. I also remember being scared that my food and drink had been poisoned. The summer before I turned 12, I had back surgery. I believe that the stress from that may have made things worse for me mentally. Despite all of this, I was still doing pretty well.

The beginning: The first day of sixth grade,shortly after my 12th birthday, I got on the bus to sit by my best friend. She pointed to the seat across from her. She continued distancing herself from me, which made me feel depressed. I cried a lot, and felt worthless and guilty. I felt like everyone was judging me, including my family, my peers, and my piano teacher. Despite this, this period of low mood was much milder than the depressions I would get later in life. My academic performance was unaffected (in fact, I actually grew a lot intellectually during this time!). I never even considered suicide. My social life, however, was severely affected. I withdrew from all my friends, feeling that they all hated me. I STILL have social problems because I can't shake the feeling that no one wants anything to do with me. I also became obsessed with witchcraft during this time. My dog was deathly sick, so I put a spell on her to preserve her health. Interestingly enough, she lived until I was a junior in high school.

The scary stuff: This is the part that confuses me the most. One day I was doing my homework. I was bored, and I started wondering if people could be attracted to inanimate objects. I started talking to a slip of paper, that I named "Jeff". Jeff became my boyfriend, and soon became greater than just a slip of paper, but an invisible presence that followed me around everywhere. I talked to him about everything. He soon confided to me that he was really the Devil, but that that was ok because he still loved me. This didn't scare me, but it explained a lot to me, like why he was invisible. We continued our relationship. A few days later, I thought that we had sex.

I immediately felt immensely guilty for hurting God like that. I became hyper-religious, trying to make up for my sin. I read my Bible and prayed during recess, while the other kids played kickball. Soon it became clear to me what I had to do. I had to run away from home and become God's prophet, trying to convince other people to convert to Christianity. This made me feel really nervous, because I loved my family and had never been more than a block away from my house unaccompanied before. But God told me to do it... One Friday afternoon, I was at my kitchen table, praying. I heard a masculine voice inside my head say "Go". I knew who that was. Well, I was not strong enough to go...I ended up staying home and begging God for forgiveness. With time, the madness faded, but it took years for me to realize that the events I've described here were probably not real.

If you have questions, feel free to ask. I need help determining

A). If I was clinically depressed during this time

and

B). if I was psychotic (or just a kid with a really vivid imagination).

My pdoc doesn't know any of this (I was too scared that he'd think I was crazy). But during my next appointment, I think I'm going to tell him what happened and ask for his professional insight into those two questions.

The pdoc won't think that you are crazy, because you are clearly NOT psychotic now. Now, you are more than well in touch with reality. Since you are able to say "interestingly" about the fact that your dog lived a long life after you put a spell on it means that you are, emphatically, NOT psychotic now. You are just a person recounting her earlier experiences trying to come up with answers and explanations.

[Victoria'smom]

Ocd including bazaar obssesion, anxiety, (ie. Monsters stealing your dad), withdrawing, low self worth are all signs of depression or asburgers which is often miss dx as adhd. It makes since you made up a bf and then felt you were bad (making him into santan) and then punishing your self by being so religious. To add more guilt because you were still depressed. It does sound like you could have been depressed enough for psychosis. I've been told it doesn't have to be a lot fpr psychosis and a lot of what people think is psychosis is actually anxiety. Talk to your therapist first before your pdoc.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Miguel'smom

a lot of what people think is psychosis is actually anxiety. Talk to your therapist first before your pdoc.

I agree.

regarding putting a spell on the dog and anxiety:

I recently had an incident - I misplaced my passport. I needed it to go to Canada. I realized that since I have such an awful record misplacing things (I now do not know where I put my cell phone), I should have long rented a safe deposit box at a bank to keep my documents in. I then decided that until I rent the box, I won't find the passport. So I rented the box, and, indeed, I then easily found the passport in the car (WHERE I LOOKED BEFORE AND DID NOT FIND IT). I told the story to the p-doc, adding that while it looks as if I actually had caused the passport to pop up so easily by renting the safe deposit box, it could be that I simply reduced my anxiety level enough by renting the safe deposit box, and with the reduced anxiety I confidently found the passport. Before I rented the safe deposit box, I was too anxious to effectively look for it. So the connection was via reducing anxiety. The pdoc told me that since I realize it, I am not psychotic.

It could be that your putting a spell on your dog caused you to lower your anxiety level, and with less anxiety, you confidently took the dog to a vet who found the right treatment for the dog. Not necessarily the case, but just a hypothesis.

Also, consider "psychotic depression".

But there is also OCD - that is separate, and adds a lot of stress, no doubt.

[venusss]

lot of people have rituals. Since you are OCD you'd be more prone to "If I do X, Y will happen".

As for spells on animals... I think energy work works on animals as well as people (yes,I really think this, no, I am not calling my pdoc). I did foot massage to a cat that was doing not so well (he's been starved cause he got locked in a car of neighbor). He gotten better. A "shaman" I knew did this on a dog that got cured.
You can be the scienciest person ever, but one has to admit there's thinks beyond our understanding. And this admision doesn't mean you shoud run to your pdoc to have meds upped. Some people see Jesus in a burned toast. Some people vote Republican. Some women think their extensions and plastic surgeries look completelly natural or have hot legs. What is belief you can do witchcraft compared to these beliefs?I think there's more people who messed with it in their teens than those who didn't...

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Some women think their extensions and plastic surgeries look completelly natural or have hot legs. What is belief you can do witchcraft compared to these beliefs?

totally true

Actually, a belief you can do witchcraft is much more endearing.

[Secretum]

So the consensus is that I was probably depressed, but may or may not have been psychotic? Thanks everyone for your input. The episode I described altered the trajectory of my life. That is why I am trying to figure out what it was. I think I will discuss it with my pdoc. I've already told three therapists about it-one said that psychosis is common in mania? (makes no sense because I was definitely not manic), the next just looked really concerned, and my current therapist told me that it was less severe than psychosis but more concerning than just an overactive imagination, and that it would probably not happen again. After my last episode in Rome (mania with psychosis), she changed her mind and said that it probably was a psychotic episode. I just don't feel like therapists can really diagnose psychosis very well, since it can only really be addressed with medication. Seems to be the kind of determination that only a pdoc could make. So, I'm going to talk to mine. (I'm scared just thinking about it! And my appointment isn't for another month...)

Venus, thanks for your input. The witchcraft spell (pun intended ) is not something that I am too concerned about. I'm more worried about my belief that I had had sex with a demon and had to become God's prophet. The witchcraft thing was just background information, so that you could get insight into how my mind was working before the incident.

Hamster, thanks. I know that he won't think that I'm crazy currently, but I don't want him thinking that I have that potential...As for the seizure disorder and the intersection of neurology and psychiatry- my mom actually has a friend who is an MD, double boarded in both neuro and psych. I suppose I could talk to her...but she is very difficult to get ahold of. She also suffers from severe depression herself. I wouldn't want to bother her, but if my desire for answers becomes too intense and my pdoc can't provide me with them, than I might send her an e-mail.

[venusss]

I just don't feel like therapists can really diagnose psychosis very well, since it can only really be addressed with medication.

well, if it's in the past, it's bit pointless to medicate it.... but therapist can help you deal with the impact of the episode. Also, I believe reality checking can help somewhat and can in some cases prevent escalation.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Secretum

I just don't feel like therapists can really diagnose psychosis very well, since it can only really be addressed with medication. Seems to be the kind of determination that only a pdoc could make. So, I'm going to talk to mine. (I'm scared just thinking about it! And my appointment isn't for another month...)

I have been having a spell of creativity and unusual thinking for the last couple of months, and check with both T (weekly) and pdoc (monthly) to see if I am psychotic or not. They both believe that I am not - emphatically not. T IS able to talk about such things (and, by the way, she is only an intern with limited experience but still).

She and the pdoc both have their ways of looking at whether one is psychotic. So for dx, T is still a good source.

[hamster-bamster]

PS

Plus, as my T has explained to me many times, there is that million dollar question of functional impairment. A T can definitely assess whether you were or are functionally impaired. After all, if there is no functional impairment, IN THEORY, even a psychosis does not need to be medicated. In theory, at least. It all boils down to functioning.

[Secretum]

My problem is that all of my functional impairment is social, which no one seems to care about. If I was failing classes, or not getting out of bed, or unable to work, then no one would deny that I had a problem and I would get help. But because my problems include severe issues with connecting with people, I'm invisible. It's so unfair, in my opinion. We NEED social interaction to survive. Loneliness, especially loneliness that is unlikely to remit because it is due to something inside of you and not the situation, is hell. Ts and pdocs need to get that in their heads and start taking the socially impaired as seriously as they take patients with impairments in other areas.

Sorry for the rant; this is just one of the things that really gets me mad.

When all of this happened, btw, no one noticed. I went from being a bubbly, social butterfly who loved everyone to someone who never talked, had no friends, and spent all her time at home locked up in her room because she was afraid her own family was judging her. And nobody even noticed. If I hadn't been so invisible to other people, I could have gotten help so much sooner. Maybe I wouldn't be so behind in life. Maybe I wouldn't be so lonely. Maybe I wouldn't feel like a failure. My life could have been so much better if people had only paid attention!

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Secretum

My problem is that all of my functional impairment is social, which no one seems to care about. If I was failing classes, or not getting out of bed, or unable to work, then no one would deny that I had a problem and I would get help. But because my problems include severe issues with connecting with people, I'm invisible. It's so unfair, in my opinion. We NEED social interaction to survive. Loneliness, especially loneliness that is unlikely to remit because it is due to something inside of you and not the situation, is hell. Ts and pdocs need to get that in their heads and start taking the socially impaired as seriously as they take patients with impairments in other areas.

Sorry for the rant; this is just one of the things that really gets me mad.

When all of this happened, btw, no one noticed. I went from being a bubbly, social butterfly who loved everyone to someone who never talked, had no friends, and spent all her time at home locked up in her room because she was afraid her own family was judging her. And nobody even noticed. If I hadn't been so invisible to other people, I could have gotten help so much sooner. Maybe I wouldn't be so behind in life. Maybe I wouldn't be so lonely. Maybe I wouldn't feel like a failure. My life could have been so much better if people had only paid attention!

You are absolutely right. They define functioning narrowly; they basically look at you as a robot, sort of - are you able to go to school, work? you are fine. But we are not robots - we are humans, aka social animals.

It would be awful to go from being a bubbly social butterfly to an invisible person. I actually did the same, but it was due to being a victim of abuse + having the self-defeating personality disorder with dependency (meaning - I isolated myself; I had friends who tried to help, but I pushed everybody away; it is different from not having friends at all, but the result - horrible social isolation - is the same so I get what you are saying perfectly well).

[venusss]

Originally Posted by Secretum

My problem is that all of my functional impairment is social, which no one seems to care about. If I was failing classes, or not getting out of bed, or unable to work, then no one would deny that I had a problem and I would get help. But because my problems include severe issues with connecting with people, I'm invisible. It's so unfair, in my opinion. We NEED social interaction to survive. Loneliness, especially loneliness that is unlikely to remit because it is due to something inside of you and not the situation, is hell. Ts and pdocs need to get that in their heads and start taking the socially impaired as seriously as they take patients with impairments in other areas.

Sorry for the rant; this is just one of the things that really gets me mad.

When all of this happened, btw, no one noticed. I went from being a bubbly, social butterfly who loved everyone to someone who never talked, had no friends, and spent all her time at home locked up in her room because she was afraid her own family was judging her. And nobody even noticed. If I hadn't been so invisible to other people, I could have gotten help so much sooner. Maybe I wouldn't be so behind in life. Maybe I wouldn't be so lonely. Maybe I wouldn't feel like a failure. My life could have been so much better if people had only paid attention!

thing is... now you are in place to help yourself. You know best what YOU need.

Past is past. And I gotten sent to shrinks and it was disaster and I am glad my mom didn't go with their suggestions. So you never know. It's often choice between two horrible scenarios.

Right now you should deal with the impact... and don't drive yourself crazy, please.

As for social grace... I wish there was easy fix. Maybe with increasing troubledness we'll soon live in society where everybody is awkward. Not sure therapists can help you with your social interaction. Fact is one psychology graduate I know is staying in abusive relationship for some ten years. Other is right now in a psychiatric asylum. Other is still searching for answers (and job) and is kinda awkward himself.

Can you embrace some of your awkwardness? YOu can only change so much... maybe some of it is YOU. Maybe it can work in your favour if you stop fighting it (people seem to know when you are being too fake and completely putting on act of different person).

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Can you embrace some of your awkwardness? YOu can only change so much... maybe some of it is YOU. Maybe it can work in your favour if you stop fighting it (people seem to know when you are being too fake and completely putting on act of different person).

Secretum: I agree.

Awkwardness CAN be sexy, if you know what I mean, just as anything genuine can be sexy.

Example: in my opinion, breast implants are not sexy. I can understand that some women get them to get social acceptance to fit a certain standard; I get that. Some get them because of a job requirement - I get that, too. What I do not get is how, I am being told, some women get implants to improve their sex lives - I simply cannot comprehend how that can be the case. I mean, the implants are FAKE - who would want to touch them? weird.

But real breasts are worth being looked at or touched (not touched by me since I am technically very straight, but you get the point - I can still see sensuality in women despite being straight) regardless of size, just because of that touching, poignant, vulnerable humanity inherent in real breasts, no matter size or shape. No matter size or shape. And, real breasts are all different, unlike implants - no woman is the same.

So same thing - being your true self will be sexy for some people who can appreciate it, and I am sure that you will meet such people sooner or later. Being genuine, however vulnerable, awkward, or insecure, always beats putting up a fake facade, in the eyes of people who can sense and appreciate your true essence, and ultimately, only such people matter.