[mossanimal]

Well I had an enlightening google session just now. This past weekend I lost it on my wife while visiting Chicago (my mom and kids were there too). I blew up at her over something stupid and took off by myself into the city with the idea of getting lost, in trouble.. or I don't know. I actually snapped out of it a few hours later when I saw a homeless guy with a sign saying that he had 'severe bipolar depression' AND more importantly.. I remembered we were supposed to take my kids to get their new pets at a breeder the next day (chinchillas! :-)) Sometimes it's the little stuff that puts you back on the right track. Anyway... Stuff like this has been the worst thing about my behavior and the reason why I first sought help a number of years ago and was finally hospitalized last summer .. a rage that ended up with me attempting suicide.

I've discussed this aspect with my doctors and it has never satisfactorily been explained to me. They consider it 'mixed mania'... or too much energy going bad. It makes sense in this case because I'm on like 2-3 weeks of 4-6 hours of sleep per night.. and only had 3 the night before this happened. But I just found two really good articles on 'manic rage' that describe me to a T. And my dad as well... we both do this.

I've been MUCH better since my diagnosis.. I think the lamictal definitely makes it happen less often and it definitely keeps me from simmering for a week or more like it used to. But in the short term it seems like it can still happen and it scares me. If I had found a bar shortly after that blow up... ughh. Call the police.

So.. I'm wondering about how other people experience this aspect of bipolar and how it's improved.. or not. I'm going to talk to my doctor about therapy for this. One thing that was mentioned in the articles was coming up with an 'action plan' for when the rage starts. I've actually talked to my wife about this.. telling her what NOT to do when this happens and some things that might defuse me. But it seems like she forgets or gets too upset at me to remember. So.. hoping I can work that out with her.

[Wild Coyote]

It's very important that you and those around you understand how to defuse the situation, if it's possible.

You bouts of rage may warrant a stronger mood stabilizer, something like Depakote. The Wellbutrin maybe adding to your rage.

I go back to Depakote whenever I am experiencing prolonged irritability, which, for me, stops things from escalating.

I hope you find some helpful strategies.


WC

[mossanimal]

Originally Posted by Wild Coyote

It's very important that you and those around you understand how to defuse the situation, if it's possible.

You bouts of rage may warrant a stronger mood stabilizer, something like Depakote. The Wellbutrin maybe adding to your rage.

I go back to Depakote whenever I am experiencing prolonged irritability, which, for me, stops things from escalating.

I hope you find some helpful strategies.


WC

Thanks.. I did think of the Wellbutrin... but it's been happening for so long.. well before Wellbutrin. But.. this is the first bad one since being on the mood stablizer.. so maybe it contributed. I will ask about the depakote. Thanks for bringing that up..

Save

[jacky8807]

It's not a usual or primary symptom of mine but it does come in the way of extreme irritability sometimes....except this week. I have been building up day by day---that kind of rage that feels explosive inside you like your organs are going to start melting. It's all I can do to keep myself snapping at my co-workers for their perceived slowness or dumb mistakes (only perceived that way from me) or lashing out at my mother for acting goofy with me
(the nerve of her!)
I'm self aware enough to realize I can and have taken it to far. I'm not on meds except klonopin so you know I've been downing those suckers. I'm working the night shift which I'm sure is making it a hella lot worse
I guess all we can do is remain self aware, walk away and use any tools we have to calm down.

[Cdnstargazer]

I struggle too. I'm going to go to my counselor and ask for some better tools on what to do when I experience rage as well. I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

Dear mossanimal and everyone on this important thread. Before I started meds and before my dx, I had terrible, terrible rages. Frequently -- I'm thinking once a week? I'd throw things across the room, or on the kitchen floor and break dishes. Not often about breaking things, but I did. I once threw the telephone across the street. Even now, I have been known to smash the telephone. So far, I have not damaged it severely, so it still works. (Both of them the land line and the cell). One time before my dx I was at my parents' house -- most of the family were there, except one of my nephews was late (as usual for him). I was going to play the piano for everyone -- the MOST difficult and MOST BEAUTIFUL music I had ever accomplished. I told those there the I wasn't going to play, until nephew got there. They made a fuss and said Go Ahead and Play. I said, that at regular piano concerts, the pianist never started to play until everyone was in the doors and seated quietly We are all classical music concert goers, so everyone knew that interruptions could throw the pianist off. So I said my situation was the same. My dad, who was a very intense, demanding and insistent person, ordered me to go ahead an play! I lay down on the kitchen floor, and cried and screamed!!!! Finally, I agreed to play even though said nephew had not arrived yet. I was thoroughly embarrassed, as well as being ashamed, manipulated, and p.o'd. But I realized -- maybe a few days later? -- that was something terribly wrong with me. But I didn't know what to do about it. I had been to pdocs and therps for years, and none of them were any good, nor helpful. I'd tried librium in high school, in the 1950s, which did nothing for me. In fact, Mother sent me to a psychologist when I was 12. Her excuse was that it was for "career counseling"! Yeah, right. Nothing about that at all, in the sessions. I had always been an outgoing, fun person, but after that counseling I became shy and withdrawn. I didn't get over that shyness until I went 1000 miles out of state to college. My first instances of "being myself again" was anger. Gradually, I got "myself back." I started meds almost 20 years ago. Since I'm an ultra-rapid cycler, sometimes they've helped and then they quit working and I have to change meds. That can be very hard. The last time I changed (twice, wit two different pdocs for reasons and situations I could not control -- they left the clinic) it was a bad nearly a year. I had rages again, and irritability. Now, I'm pretty much okay again. I keep a great mood chart, and for 18 straight days, I was totally level! Then, the day before yesterday and yesterday, too, I was extremely angry and it stuck around for several hours. Then I got okay again. The first time it was because someone was rude and accused me of something I did not do. The second time it was rage -- again! -- about some electronics not working. A common situation around here. I don't have kids or grandkids to help out with electronics, as many/most people my age do. So it's me or an expensive tech guy.. So broke my good 18 day record. Hopefully today will be another level day. I think it will be. I feel fine now. (6:30 a.m.) Oh-- and an important thing! I don't sream anymore and here's how I did that self control I made a little poster, which I put on my computer screen, that has a picture of a kitty that looks like my Blackie. At the top of the picture, I wrote in huge letters: TODAY IS A NO SCREAM DAY! Then in tiny letters under the phicture, "Blackie says" Please don't scream. It scares me when you scream." So my screaming days are over -- I love my cat so much I do not want to hurt him in any way and scaring him is hurting him.

[mossanimal]

Thank you very much for this post. Stuff like this continues to confirm my dx. I'm also a 'breaker of things'. And my wife and kids get scared when I turn like this.. because I'm NOT a volatile type person usually. I've never even been close to violence towards my wife or my kids. But glass things, car doors, walls, and chairs have felt my wrath. I haven't broken anything since my dx last summer and being on lamictal.. well.. my favorite coffee cup met the concrete floor in my shop a couple of months ago.

Anyway.. this recent awakening to the cause of my rage has brought back many memories of my own raging anger instances.. as well as my Dad's. It also brings to mind some things that happened when I was in elementary school.. that now make a lot of sense.

I see my doc tomorrow.. so lots to talk about. I think the most important thing is to get my wife on board for helping to diffuse these situations... and get over her own reaction to it (at least at the critical moment). One thing that is sure to fuel the rage is to have her try to ignore me when I'm like this. I'd rather her just grab me and hug me or remind me that my over-inflated anger makes no sense.

Originally Posted by flowerbells

Dear mossanimal and everyone on this important thread. Before I started meds and before my dx, I had terrible, terrible rages. Frequently -- I'm thinking once a week? I'd throw things across the room, or on the kitchen floor and break dishes. Not often about breaking things, but I did. I once threw the telephone across the street. Even now, I have been known to smash the telephone. So far, I have not damaged it severely, so it still works. (Both of them the land line and the cell). One time before my dx I was at my parents' house -- most of the family were there, except one of my nephews was late (as usual for him). I was going to play the piano for everyone -- the MOST difficult and MOST BEAUTIFUL music I had ever accomplished. I told those there the I wasn't going to play, until nephew got there. They made a fuss and said Go Ahead and Play. I said, that at regular piano concerts, the pianist never started to play until everyone was in the doors and seated quietly We are all classical music concert goers, so everyone knew that interruptions could throw the pianist off. So I said my situation was the same. My dad, who was a very intense, demanding and insistent person, ordered me to go ahead an play! I lay down on the kitchen floor, and cried and screamed!!!! Finally, I agreed to play even though said nephew had not arrived yet. I was thoroughly embarrassed, as well as being ashamed, manipulated, and p.o'd. But I realized -- maybe a few days later? -- that was something terribly wrong with me. But I didn't know what to do about it. I had been to pdocs and therps for years, and none of them were any good, nor helpful. I'd tried librium in high school, in the 1950s, which did nothing for me. In fact, Mother sent me to a psychologist when I was 12. Her excuse was that it was for "career counseling"! Yeah, right. Nothing about that at all, in the sessions. I had always been an outgoing, fun person, but after that counseling I became shy and withdrawn. I didn't get over that shyness until I went 1000 miles out of state to college. My first instances of "being myself again" was anger. Gradually, I got "myself back." I started meds almost 20 years ago. Since I'm an ultra-rapid cycler, sometimes they've helped and then they quit working and I have to change meds. That can be very hard. The last time I changed (twice, wit two different pdocs for reasons and situations I could not control -- they left the clinic) it was a bad nearly a year. I had rages again, and irritability. Now, I'm pretty much okay again. I keep a great mood chart, and for 18 straight days, I was totally level! Then, the day before yesterday and yesterday, too, I was extremely angry and it stuck around for several hours. Then I got okay again. The first time it was because someone was rude and accused me of something I did not do. The second time it was rage -- again! -- about some electronics not working. A common situation around here. I don't have kids or grandkids to help out with electronics, as many/most people my age do. So it's me or an expensive tech guy.. So broke my good 18 day record. Hopefully today will be another level day. I think it will be. I feel fine now. (6:30 a.m.) Oh-- and an important thing! I don't sream anymore and here's how I did that self control I made a little poster, which I put on my computer screen, that has a picture of a kitty that looks like my Blackie. At the top of the picture, I wrote in huge letters: TODAY IS A NO SCREAM DAY! Then in tiny letters under the phicture, "Blackie says" Please don't scream. It scares me when you scream." So my screaming days are over -- I love my cat so much I do not want to hurt him in any way and scaring him is hurting him.

[bioChE]

Moss, I wouldn't necessarily expect your wife to help defuse these situations. We are the only ones who can control our behavior and keep our emotions in check. Definitely talk it over with your doctor, but try to rely on yourself and your own coping mechanisms to regulate yourself. If your wife has the capacity and willingness to help she can be an adjunct to your treatment, but ultimately we are responsible for our own behavior.

[mossanimal]

Ha.. my intuition was telling me this as I wrote that. Thanks for making that idea concrete.

Originally Posted by bioChE

Moss, I wouldn't necessarily expect your wife to help defuse these situations. We are the only ones who can control our behavior and keep our emotions in check. Definitely talk it over with your doctor, but try to rely on yourself and your own coping mechanisms to regulate yourself. If your wife has the capacity and willingness to help she can be an adjunct to your treatment, but ultimately we are responsible for our own behavior.

[bioChE]

Originally Posted by mossanimal

Ha.. my intuition was telling me this as I wrote that. Thanks for making that idea concrete.

Good self-awareness.

[Trippin2.0]

I've suffered terrible rages since childhood.

I personally doubt it has anything to do with (my) bipolar.

I too started scaring my child (and mother and brother too) what with breaking and throwing shyt... Thank God I've never got in trouble with the law, because legally I should have been in jail a few times.

My daughter expressing her fear of my anger made me want to change it desperately... DBT has been very helpful at managing and channeling rage of this magnitude. Emotional regulation is the module that helped, it allowed me to create windows between thought, feeling and reaction.

Self awareness is another biggy, if I feel it bubbling under the surface like a warm under current, I either address it, ir try and exorcise it. Swimming, punching bag, metal music and most vital, a timeout (yes I put myself into the naughty corner so I don't inadvertently bite someone) are things I do to calm down.

If none of those are options at the time, I take a good ole vitamin A.

Ativan.

But haven't had to resort to that in ages.

If you can learn how to catch it, and process it, there's way less chance of an explosion.

Also, the only thing I asked of my loved ones is to say a safe word in the event my self awareness is failing me.

So if someone says "peaches", I need to reflect. In timeout. Hehehe

Rage is the thing (aside from that first life-altering persistent deep depression at 20), that made me know there was something very wrong with me. It was also a vivid childhood reality (receiving end). Hello, heritability.
(I mention the 20 thing because this was not an issue for me in childhood. It's been an adulthood phenomenon, interestingly enough. It seemed to have come as a package deal. Boo.)

I do want to say that it's a bit of a confusing thing. Rage can be something else, not necessarily BP, and it's not listed among symptoms. Yet, it's something that a LOT of us struggle with. That's where mixed comes in (if it's BP and not something else of course…)

I was there yesterday for sure. And wow, can I ever relate to the "taking off alone into the city with the idea of getting lost, in trouble… or I don't know". I can't stand being in my own skin. Can't sit still. I really, really wish I had some kind of …. I don't know, punching bag or something. I hate it, but stopping? Where is that overwhelming negative energy to go?? So frustrating. Hate cleaning up the aftermath (or patching wall). (It was an all-too familiar element that they actually showed in the movie Infinitely Polar Bear. Embarrassingly accurate.)

Mossanimal, do you happen to have links to those articles? They'd be interesting to read.

I also found that they were less frequent after I went on the Lamictal. (Btw, good med points, WC.) I really think there's something to the anti-convulsants in this.

An action plan sounds like a good idea. Man, do I hate getting yelled at or otherwise lectured about it. As if I WANT it to be that way(!!!!!) Very much not the case. I HATE it. I call it Rabid Wolverine Mode, and it ain't pretty. It's embarrassing. If I could "just" stop it, believe me, one of these decades I would have….

It feels like my mood is shifting, but I don't currently have a real handle on what it's up to. Real life is sucking big time right now, and stress is out the wazoo. That very much does not help. I hope it's not going mixed, because that's a really, really bad combo (worst episode of my life was that kind of convergence, and I never want to "go there" again.) I'm in to see my new Pdoc in a week. Hopefully this is just a glitch, or they will have their work cut out for them. (Just when I thought I was getting stable…)

(Btw, awwwww, chinchillas! Lucky you!)

[mossanimal]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

I
Also, the only thing I asked of my loved ones is to say a safe word in the event my self awareness is failing me.

So if someone says "peaches", I need to reflect. In timeout. Hehehe

I like the idea of a safe word. Hmmmm... what would this be. I like random things that have nothing to do with the current situation. Garden Gnomes.

Save

[Trippin2.0]

I like it!

Mine was random too, I don't even eat fruit really, I just picked a word

[mossanimal]

Originally Posted by Innerzone

Mossanimal, do you happen to have links to those articles? They'd be interesting to read.

(Btw, awwwww, chinchillas! Lucky you!)

Yeah... they are actually pretty cute. And way more interesting than hamsters. And clean and odor free. I have a hunting dog that doesn't even recognize them as prey.

I also relate to 'Infinitely Polar Bear' especially the rage he had in the beginning when he was manic.

Here are those links (they are actually the top two hits when using 'bipolar rage' as search criterion): Bipolar Disorder & Anger: Stuck on the rage road! | bpHope - bp Magazine Community

Bipolar & Anger: Getting Control Of Irritability & Outburst | bpHope - bp Magazine Community

And to those how mentioned that rage like this isn't bipolar related: I've wondered that myself and have sometimes thought that I may have some BPD. But my docs have said absolutely not. Reading those articles certainly makes me lean toward bipolar.. especially if it's in a mixed context. I have no doubt that this happens when I'm elated. BTW.. if you read the articles it's mentioned that it is only considered 'bipolar rage' if it happens during a period of elation.

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Originally Posted by mossanimal

And to those how mentioned that rage like this isn't bipolar related: I've wondered that myself and have sometimes thought that I may have some BPD. But my docs have said absolutely not.

I'm in that same boat. Multiple providers, all in agreement. No BPD in my situation.

Though rage certainly CAN be (and often is) due to other things, that doesn't necessarily exclude it from being an element of BP for some. Hear ya.

Thanks for the links. Will read them now.

Originally Posted by mossanimal

BTW.. if you read the articles it's mentioned that it is only considered 'bipolar rage' if it happens during a period of elation.

To me it read as it being part of an episode (whether up or down, though more likely up, but in an irritable way as opposed to elation, which to me seems like "happy hypo", if that makes sense). But the within an episode thing is important.

If it's a regular state of affairs/recurring theme, it's not likely BP-related. That's actually a decent way to try to suss it out.

(Also that one needs to consider substance abuse when trying to determine a source.)

[Jenna120]

I've always had terrible rages. I use the code word "bad brain" to tell my family to stay the heck away. My new psych NP wants to try loxapine on top of the mood stabilizer, antidepressant and anti-psychotic. Google says it seems to help a LOT for bipolar anger and agitation, I think off-label, so maybe try that?