[Girl_Interrupted]

It's been going over and over in my head trying to work out why she would say this.

Basically I turn up very early to my appointments because I rely on buses, that are never on time, sometimes don't even turn up at all, and they don't even come that often on the actual timetables anyway, so it's either I turn up very early to my appointments, or very late.

My therapist knows I rely on buses. She has been late to every single one of my appointments, which I'm counting now either the 4th or 5th, I'm not entirely sure.

Yesterday she tells me as we finish off my appointment something about telling me I should be late for a change or something.

I am so confused. I don't want to be late. I'm keen to recover, and if I'm late, I just have to be very very late, and then she would be p*ssed off with ME, like I get p*ssed off with her when she's late.

Why would she encourage this? Is this a SKILL I'm supposed to learn or something?

heh.. I don't know. I had the same issue with my pdoc. I arrive very early because I'm paranoid about being late. (And he was late every time too and didn't seem to mind making me wait).

Maybe something about having to pay $225/hour whether you show up on time or not has something to do with this behavior?? LOL... it's annoying, I agree.

btw, your T was joshing, no?

[BrokenNBeautiful]

I too rely on buses.

When I was going to my holistic appts. (not DBT, but same dynamic) I was often early, too and often the therapists were late. My aunt (who raised me, probably had bpd too) never tolerated lateness, in me or in her friends. So she made me always early for things. I used to sit outside places before the doors were unlocked! And the ppl always wondered why I was doing that! lol

So, I was always early for th ings as an adult.

As an adult, I never tolerated lateness,auntie implied that when people are late (me or anyone else) it meant they did not care about the relationship or our feelings). So I always assumed that when ppl were late, it meant they did not care.

Not sure if th is feedback is helpful, but I needed to respond.

You may take it or leave it.

Maybe what I relate to the strongest is dealing with others' lateness or faux pas's and never feeling like I could ever make a mistake or be late? And that's what made me the angriest. Never being allowed to be a human being and then having to allow everybody else to be one?

Interesting post.

Billi

[shezbut]

"She has been late to every single one of my appointments, which I'm counting now either the 4th or 5th, I'm not entirely sure.

Yesterday she tells me as we finish off my appointment something about telling me I should be late for a change or something."

I think that your T was trying to make light of the fact that she's always late and you're always on time. It isn't a skill that you need to learn. She needs to pick up your skill of always being on time!

I can understand how you missed her attempt at humor. Sometimes, we become a little obsessive of certain things. Others have their ways of encouraging us to lighten up a little bit. Easier said than done! Especially when they don't understand all of the circumstances that make us appear obsessive. Sometimes, we have darn good reasons to be strict. They just don't always understand that, imo.

[Girl_Interrupted]

In the way that she said it, she was serious. She wasn't joking at all.

[cboxpalace]

Well, there really is no way of knowing what she meant by that. I say you come right out and ask her why she would say that.

[heyitsryan]

Definitely sounds like she noticed that you being really early is a defined personality trait of yours, and perhaps she's trying to find a trigger. Perhaps many or most patients by their 4th or 5th visit have revealed or exhibited a trigger that the clinician can then examine together with the patient as part of normal DBT therapy, and since you haven't revealed any yet (a good sign I would think), she is trying to coax one out of you. It *is* an extremely odd thing to say, imo, so that's why I thought of this trigger theory. Most doctor and dentist offices usually are quite uptight when a patient is late, and I've noticed that my dentist now even requires patients to reschedule appts. if they are more than 10 min. late, and I believe pay a cancellation fee on top of that.

Or (theory #2), perhaps she was feelings stressed out, as in, she is always late, you are always on time, and she wishes to not feel "under the gun," which your being late would alleviate. I'm not in any way suggesting you have done anything purposeful to make her feel that way, but we have to remember that MDs, PhDs, etc. are human beings, too, with the same pet-peeves and annoyances and hang ups and feelings, etc. (just in varying degrees) as everyone else, including those struggling with mental and behavioral health issues. If it is the latter (she is just annoyed), a much more professional route, to my mind, would be for her to move your appt. time back from now on. At the very least, she should THANK YOU for your continued promptness, and offer an apology for her tardiness. It is a common courtesy to be on-time to appointments. Furthermore, an offer of an explanation along with an apology would also be in order. Clearly, she's late for a reason, and it's been consistent. There is no reason to believe she won't continue to be late going forward barring changes to whatever her schedule entails leading up to your appt. time. An explanation would at least explain her behavior and improve communication. If this pattern continues, I believe it could become problematic. Each therapy session should begin on a good note, and this issue potentially compromises this goal.

Good luck, and I hope it words out for the best!

Ryan

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by Girl_Interrupted

I'm keen to recover, and if I'm late, I just have to be very very late, and then she would be p*ssed off with ME, like I get p*ssed off with her when she's late.

Perhaps she was trying to get you to experience the 'pissed off feeling' right in her presence in order to trigger it and get you to verbalize it to her. It sounds like you have not told her how annoying this is to you and she may be trying to get you to realize that you allow people (her) to walk all over you without complaint. I have heard of therapists telling their patients to go get a cup of coffee for them, just to show them how easily they let people cross their boundaries. It sounds a bit deceitful to me, but on the other hand, I think the boundary lesson would be remembered more because it is actually EXPERIENCED and then discussed with the T. They would get to experience first hand exactly how much you repress/suppress your true feelings.

[eskielover]

A lot of times people joke around with a very serious tone to their voice......I am sure she was joking with.

Interesting because I'm always late for my DBT...always the last one there. It's hard for me to get going in the morning with 5 dogs to get settled & out the door, it's like having 5 kids....& I chose to go to the Comp Care group in the .....takes me 20 minutes to drive there & something always hits right before I have to leave. I hate arriving late because the others in the group & the group have already started talking about important things.

I try & try & try to get there on time & even when I think I'm doing good, I end up at least 15 minutes late.....I get so mad at myself about that though. I can even get started getting ready at 6am & something always hits that ends up making me late........& I've been going to DBT for 1 1/2 years now....you would think I could finally get there on time at least once.

I'm really involved in it & always do all the work & participate.....but it just makes me frustrated at myself. I am surprised that my leader hasn't commented about her wishing that just once wishihg I would get there on time....but hasn't said anything....say enough to myself in reality.

[bpd2]

Okay, I'm worried about the direction this whole discussion took. Here's why: the comment came up as the appointment was finishing, so, Girl, you were left with no opportunity to sift through your own thoughts/feelings before having to leave. (Leaving in confusion is the worst thing, for me, personally. I lose heart so quickly.) Not only are you already uncomfortable about not being able to be at the appointment when you want to be but are, instead, at the mercy of the mass transit schedule, but you also have this nagging echo from your past that says that people who are late for appointments with you don't care enough about you to be on time (i.e., that you're not important--or not as important as someone else or blah, blah, blah, who-knows-what-it-is-but-it's-something-at-least-a-little-heartbreaking). Then, there's the fact that early therapy appointments are stressful in terms of building a relationship--or worrying about whether or not we have one.
So, holy-moly . . . . . . it's all this anxiety and fear and shame and indignation at being misunderstood and this wish to be treated fairly and with attention to the facts and to our feelings so that all the whole $hitload of everything that's always happened before doesn't happen again now, here, with this Very Important Person. Well . . . . . it's just exhausting and makes a person feel defeated.
So, here's what I think: the good news is that it DID come up at the end of a session and you had to go away instead of get all tangled up into a finely tuned analysis of something that isn't, actually, going to change (probably. I mean, you still will take the bus, she is still probably over-extended and learning how to manage her own time and her own schedule . . . people can get pretty complicated schedules going if they don't spend their whole day in one office seeing patients there). So, now, at this point, you get to say, well . . . The Facts: I ride the bus. I get there early. It'll be nice when she gets used to that fact and stops being uncomfortable with it. And you get to say: I'm glad she's not borderline, like me, and doesn't get pissed off about this kind of stuff. I wonder if she is irritated? And really, I wonder if it's that she's irritated that I'm early or that she senses that I'm irritated that she's late? And, also, you get to say this: I wonder what it will be like for the two of us to get used to each other's schedules--me too early, her a little late?

And, finally, I think it's really, really important for us all to separate out the being early because that's the logistical arrangement you have to make to be there at the start of your appointment time from the emotional reactions to late/early anxiety over respect/pushy/needy/cavalier and so on. The fact is, it's probably true that Girl has to be there early in order to be on time for her appointment. But that is the really, really interesting question that you get to ask now, and it goes like this:
Girl to therapist: "You said I should try being late. I worried about that a little. If I were late . . . would that mean that I would still have to leave at the end of the hour, or would you be able to have enough time at the scheduled end of the appointment to tack a little time on?" You could even ask: "Is this a good time of day to have the appointments? It seems to be hard for you to get here on time, and I have to get here early. Is there another option that would work better? It's okay, it there isn't, but what do you think?"
And that question-asking, and choice making, and taking responsibility without blame (and also without hurting yourself--as in denying yourself comfort and cheer because you must be wrong and they must be right) that's what DBT and therapy and our constant self-work is all about. IMO.

[3little.birds]

Maybe she forgot you take the bus? Is that possible or no?

[ECHOES]

Why would she encourage this? Is this a SKILL I'm supposed to learn or something?

These are good questions. Only she can answer to what she means by her statement. Checking that out directly with her is a skill to learn.

i'd be really interested to hear her answer to your q if you want to share it

i too would rather make myself very early for an important appointment rather than late - i have learnt to go for a wander though rather than atually turning up early but thats only so i dont look silly

its been really interesting to read this - i amoddly, known in my family for being late forthingsbut when its important i arrive stupidly early

lots to ponder on here for me - thanks x

[Girl_Interrupted]

My therapist drives. She goes to lunch and comes late to my appointment back to her place of work EVERY time. It's not her just being caught up with her stupid office work, she is just lazy.

She makes it quite clear she doesn't want to be there half the time, since she's always admitting "...when I can be bothered to come into work." when we plan our next appointments.

[Girl_Interrupted]

Originally Posted by 3little.birds

Maybe she forgot you take the bus? Is that possible or no?

No because I tell her every time about how my bus journey went when I see her She knows I take the bus

[Girl_Interrupted]

Originally Posted by cboxpalace

Well, there really is no way of knowing what she meant by that. I say you come right out and ask her why she would say that.

You're the only person that's spoken sense. I'll have to ask her on Monday if I bring up the guts to ask her, unless she brings it up anyway.

If she's late next week too, I don't know how I'm gonna bring myself to say something about it.

[3little.birds]

Originally Posted by bpd2

Girl to therapist: "You said I should try being late. I worried about that a little. If I were late . . . would that mean that I would still have to leave at the end of the hour, or would you be able to have enough time at the scheduled end of the appointment to tack a little time on?" You could even ask: "Is this a good time of day to have the appointments? It seems to be hard for you to get here on time, and I have to get here early. Is there another option that would work better? It's okay, it there isn't, but what do you think?"

Then I agree with bpd2 and you should bring it up like that.. Show her that her behavior is bothering you without getting hostile or anything.. Because what you are saying makes her sound like the worst therapist ever..

I'd probably end up saying something like, "well sorry I am such an inconvenience to your social life.. don't be doing me any favors by showing up to help me -_- .. even though I am paying for your services!"

But like I said.. bpd2 worded it very nicely

[heyitsryan]

Originally Posted by Girl_Interrupted

You're the only person that's spoken sense.

I know you meant that in a nice way. :]

[bpd2]

Originally Posted by Girl_Interrupted

My therapist drives. She goes to lunch and comes late to my appointment back to her place of work EVERY time. It's not her just being caught up with her stupid office work, she is just lazy.

She makes it quite clear she doesn't want to be there half the time, since she's always admitting "...when I can be bothered to come into work." when we plan our next appointments.

Yikes. I can see myself freaking out in this situation. It would be so hard not to become hostile, because I would feel so hurt. So, here's what I know: because I would react that way, and because reacting that way gets me into trouble not only in the actual relationship but also in my own heart and head, I have to shut off caring whether or not she is trying to "do" anything to me. I have to think about what I want to "do" to myself. So, I try very, very hard--and I am very grateful for the time in between appointments because it enforces that I have to do this for myself--to create creative and positive choices for myself. The other person has some problems. It's never clear to me quite what they are (because when those problems affect me, I can't separate what is happening inside me in reaction to their actions from what is actually happening in fact, that is, in phenomenological terms--like, I kicked a rock and it hurt (not the whole train of thought about what the f was I thinking that made me kick a rock anyway and did anyone see me and why can't I find someone to hug me instead of having to go out and find rocks to kick and worms to eat). So, because I have ALL kinds of suspicions about why they do what they do, and because people tend to become exasperated (at best) if I ask them to tell me what every little detail that I noticed means, I've been learning to let them live their lives and to try to figure out how to get my needs met by asking for what I want--like a full appointment's worth of time (not an appointment cut short because of the therapist's own organizational difficulties), and like respect for the fact that while it is uncomfortable and inconvenient for me to have to be some place early because of my transportation arrangements, I have to accept the awkwardness and do it anyway, and like asking for a person to understand that I am sensitive to anything that others pick up on as awkward behavior, especially when I still don't know them well enough to have made a decision about trusting them.

So, I hate it that you're scared and hurt by your therapist's behavior. But I really like it that you're doing the right thing by being in therapy and examining what you are like, how you see things, and what works and what doesn't as you work on making the changes that will make your life more peaceful and understandable. It's the emotional chaos of stuff like this that leaves me shrieking (mostly only in my head these days), and it's the work I've done in therapy that has helped me make some really important changes.

I'm sure it matters that you find a therapist who is a good "fit" for you, but what matters so much more is that you make a commitment to spending time talking out and working on behaviors and thoughts that have been ruining your life--or big parts of it. (I'm speaking for myself here . . . .shouldn't be using "you", I guess.) The therapist, after all, isn't the one who has to do the work. We are. They are people we pay to guide us, and we do deserve to get our money's worth. Still, we have to put one foot in front of the other, day after day, using the insights and tools we get in therapy, while they go off to lunch and pay the chef and the waiter to bring them what they need. I'd like to think that your therapist was hoping that, metaphorically, you would get to sometimes enjoy a leisurely lunch, too--and not have to always worry about whether or not you were "doing what you were supposed to be doing."

But all this is where my head is right now . . . projection, maybe? I hope I'm not too wide of the mark in trying to respond to what you're dealing with. Your story and reaction hit home with me, and maybe we live in the same house.

[Girl_Interrupted]

Don't get me wrong, she's a brilliant therapist and she compliments me and stuff. Maybe tries to be a bit 'motherly' but I'm sure she means well. It's just the fact that her not wanting to be there really shows, and it's like, why bother?

She points out my mistakes in social communication and tells me nicely and appropriately what the correct thing would be to say.

She's told me she's glad I got allocated to her as my therapist and as her patient, since I'm a good patient, but I wish she wasn't being so uninterested in being there.

She seems interested in helping me and being my therapist until she gets out her diary to book the next appointment and says "can't book then, then, then...We'll book it for when I can be bothered to come into work, and sometimes I can't be bothered, so don't worry, we'll rearrange it if I don't come in".

[ECHOES]

Please discuss this with her, and tell her how her words affect you. It will be good to get sorted out, and it's great therapy stuff!

[eskielover]

I definitely think your feelings on this are important to bring out to her about the way she's coming across.

Maybe she's talking like that because she wants to sound like she has a life other than being a therapist....instead, it's really coming across as her not being interested in being a therapist.

Anyone who put's that much time & effort into getting a career especially one like that which is involved in helping people....then they need to take their responsibility seriously....not just when THEY feel like it.

My engineering career sometimes required me to give them 70 hours a week......& when you have a career verses just a JOB......then the career comes first.....that has always been my opinion.....either they are a career person....or they need to get out & find something that fits better with their life.

Think it would be good therapy for her to hear & REALLY HEAR what you are saying.....because it's a very important point in therapy.

[bpd2]

Originally Posted by Girl_Interrupted

We'll book it for when I can be bothered to come into work, and sometimes I can't be bothered, so don't worry, we'll rearrange it if I don't come in".

It is unsettling that she uses the phrase "I can't be bothered, so don't worry, we'll arrange it if I don't come in." That's the part that would intimidate me into not asking . . . so, well, for me, that, I know, is exactly the part I'd better ask her about . . . as respectfully as possible. And I'd have to think hard about how the heck I would phrase that . . . .