[allme]

I have just read an article or report that has turned my life upside down and to the point where I felt as though I lost grip of all reality.

I just read that ppl with BPD are irredeemable monsters (actually his own words) I read that we are sociopaths that have the ability to believe we have emotions, when in fact, none of our mood swings or even love for ppl is real..actually none of our emotions or feelings are real.it is all a master grand plan (that we are totally unaware of) to manipulate others into relationships that are self serving and abusive in every sense of the word. I read that we would say/do/act anything to ultimately con ppl into saving the damsel in distress that we all believe we are. We are self victimising monsters that are either, in a relationship, either being abused or have become the abuser, and what with our 'splitting' can alternate between the two...so we are either wanting to be saved, so we play the victim or when we see the split person as the abuser, we then in fact become the abuser.

Am I to believe that what I perceive as love, pain, sadness are all ********? Am I to believe that I am in this vicious circle that will never end of me being the victim or abuser? Is it true that although all my feelings feel real to me they are all infact some sick twisted version of real emotion?

Am I really this monster with no real feelings? I mean as in what is real to a person without BPD?

IS my whole life and personality a manifestation of my illness?

Please help understand what I just read. I don't even know if I am equipped to deal with such a truth. But if it is the truth, I must know it is if I have any hope or truly becoming a 'real' decent person.

I am sorry if my writing or explanation isn't great, I am not good with words....

I really need someone with a huge amount of self awareness and strength to read what I just read and give me some perspective. Is there anyone that feel they could read something like this and maybe shed a different light or perspective on it?

I am not willing to post the link for all to see for the fear it will do to you what it just did to me....but please, if think you are strong enough to read it pls tell me and I will pm it to you for a set of fresh eyes and hopefully some insight into what this guy wrote.

[ifst5]

How did you come across this article?

Try and have pity on these people - their own ignorance and traumatic experiences have deluded them into thinking they're entitled to publish this garbage.

Psychopathy is a different personality disorder entirely - BPD is on the other end of the spectrum. So what they're writing doesn't even make logical sense. Instead of reading accounts that have no basis in scientific understanding, turn to peer reviewed articles which detail the most up to date research on BPD.

We know that manipulation is not the basis of some of the more concerning behaviours, we know that the right amount of therapy and medication can reduce self injurous behaviour, suicidal idealization, paranoia and mood instability etc. Yes there are bad people who also happen to have personality disorders but to lump everyone into the same category is so laughably stupid that no one worth convincing otherwise would believe it anyway.

I'm sorry you've been exposed to such an article - i'm afraid the internet can be a place of such shameful behaviour...at times it seems like no one can be bothered to actually read, opinions are seen as something that must be argued instead of respected, facts get put aside in the place of personal agenda. It's so tiresome. All we can do is take as much responsibility as possible - and don't give unnecessary rise to people who there's just no hope for.

I hope you feel better soon.

[allme]

I think I need to calm down, sleep and come back to this tomorrow with a fresh head. I feel so confused about who I am and what is real...I mean, I read it and it makes sense partly, but what I can't comprehend is the possibility of not actually loving my husband and him living with this monster...I can't emphasise how I would not be able to live with myself if I believed what this man wrote....and the worrying thing is, the paper has nearly convinced me that my own delusions will make me believe he is wrong in what he said to protect myself from the truth of the real monster I am...

Would you mind if I sent you the link and tell me what you think after reading it?

[allme]

Can you point me in the direction of what I should be reading?

[allme]

I am leaving this for today, I am too emotionally rattled for any sense or reason to sink in.

[ifst5]

Please don't feel bad - you're understandably shocked and what you read was plainly abusive...but please remember, any points which you feel you can relate too have been skewed to prop up someones warped interpretation of a situation that has no bearing on the actual understanding of this disease. This website has a lot of good information, as does MIND, dbtselfhelp.org...the right information is out there if you need it.

I know you've mentioned concern about the treatment of your husband and the effect it has on your relationship - how is that going? I feel like it's something you can't take on solely by yourself, a relationship has to be saved together. There are support groups for family and friends which he can attend (MIND can give you advice on this), and then there's the option of individual therapy...please just keep going, you're not a failure if you don't succeed - only if you don't try.

[HowDoYouFeelMeow?]

Sorry to hear about that. Please don't read too much into only a single article. Who knows if it's even valid. If reputable sources like the American/European Journals of Medicine were publishing many articles like this, then maybe give it a little more weight. Maybe someone who's got a chip on their shoulder wrote that. It sure sounds like it given their lack of scientific terminology. Science (including psychology) doesn't have monsters.

[Crazy Hitch]

Yeah I agree with the above posters. I've never heard of such nonsense written by such a highly uneducated individual who clearly has a chip on his shoulder and is either writing it to stir up an argument either for or against what he's writing.

It's just completely wrong on every level. Don't question yourself and don't let the moron who wrote the article put false ideas in your head.

None of my treating mental health practitioners would even agree with his self destructive article. It's all lies.

If it's not too much trouble would you mind sending me the link?

It wasn't that long ago that youtube recommend a video to me that called us lizard brains and non-humans. *eyeroll* They need to work on that ****.

Unfortunately there are some people out there that have been burned by someone with BPD and instead of accepting their own part in the relationship they like to place all of the blame on the BPD.

I fell in love with an NPD and I am well aware of the fact that it was my emotional neediness that drew him to me and made me stay. These people are unwilling to admit their own co-dependency issues so they make the BPD out to be a monster and themselves blameless.

And don't even get me started on the militant MRMs that like to use BPD as a weapon against women.

Side note: would you choose to feel this way? It seems a pretty elaborate plan to make ourselves feel like ****? Who ever wrote this sounds like they have issues of their own.

I'm sorry the article you read was so disturbing to you, allme.
I know that when I've searched the web for articles and blogs about BPD, I've often come across things that really reek of hatred and distain for us. It can be hurtful and soul rattling. I'm glad you stepped away to regain your equilibrium. Sometimes that's all you can do after coming in contact with articles that show little understanding of the pain people with BPD deal with on a daily basis.

I often find it amusing that so many of these articles and blogs accuse individuals with BPD of lacking any degree of empathy. Yet, when they write about us, they show little understanding or empathy for us. I guess I'd rather "hang" with people who are at least trying to better themselves than ones who are ripping into other people who are dealing with a serious mental health issue.

I'd be glad to take a look at the article if you'd send me the link. Take care!

[shezbut]

(((allme)))

Sorry you got triggerred by this inaccurate article.

The description of BPD that you referred to in your post actually sounds a lot more like Antisocial Personality Disorder to me.

For instance, according to MedlinePlus,"Antisocial personality disorder is a mental health condition in which a person has a long-term pattern of manipulating, exploiting, or violating the rights of others. This behavior is often criminal.... A person with antisocial personality disorder may:

Be able to act witty and charming
Be good at flattery and manipulating other people's emotions
Break the law repeatedly
Disregard the safety of self and others
Have problems with substance abuse
Lie, steal, and fight often
Not show guilt or remorse
Often be angry or arrogant"

A very small minority of BPD sufferers may share a couple of the symptoms, but it's simply not the same. {The site also goes on to say that in order to be diagnosed with Antisocial personality disorder, the person must have also have had conduct disorder in childhood.}

We aren't "bad" people. MedlinePlus explains BPD as follows: "Persons with BPD are often uncertain about their identity. As a result, their interests and values can change rapidly. They also tend to view things in terms of extremes, such as either all good or all bad. Their views of other people can change quickly. A person who is looked up to one day may be looked down on the next day. These suddenly shifting feelings often lead to intense and unstable relationships.

Other symptoms of BPD include:

Intense fear of being abandoned
Cannot tolerate being alone
Frequent feelings of emptiness and boredom
Frequent displays of inappropriate anger
Impulsiveness, such as with substance abuse or sexual relationships
Repeated crises and acts of self-injury, such as wrist cutting or overdosing"

Hope that this information helps you feel better.

[Harmacy]

Originally Posted by Jaybird57

I often find it amusing that so many of these articles and blogs accuse individuals with BPD of lacking any degree of empathy. Yet, when they write about us, they show little understanding or empathy for us.

Exactly. They're usually written by people who have encountered someone with BPD in their life but who have not made any attempt to understand the condition other than in how it negatively affects them.

People with BPD have heightened emotional empathy but sometimes lack cognitive empathy. This is why we often fall into the trap of being manipulated by others with less than decent intentions towards us or find ourselves behaving in ways which are primarily driven by emotion.

The big difference between a narcissist and someone with BPD is that when a narc is manipulating it's well thought through and they hide their tracks so you often wouldn't know or they'd put all the blame on you. The irony is that people with BPD who lack the ability to mask their emotions may appear as if they are manipulating others when they aren't. We usually just don't want people to hurt us emotionally which considering how extremely painful that feels for us is perfectly f-ing understandable.

Originally Posted by Jaybird57

I often find it amusing that so many of these articles and blogs accuse individuals with BPD of lacking any degree of empathy. Yet, when they write about us, they show little understanding or empathy for us. I guess I'd rather "hang" with people who are at least trying to better themselves than ones who are ripping into other people who are dealing with a serious mental health issue.

Something I have noted myself and a large part of the reason I no longer care about these particular articles.

Hypocrites don't get to judge me.

[allme]

Originally Posted by ifst5

Please don't feel bad - you're understandably shocked and what you read was plainly abusive...but please remember, any points which you feel you can relate too have been skewed to prop up someones warped interpretation of a situation that has no bearing on the actual understanding of this disease. This website has a lot of good information, as does MIND, dbtselfhelp.org...the right information is out there if you need it.

I know you've mentioned concern about the treatment of your husband and the effect it has on your relationship - how is that going? I feel like it's something you can't take on solely by yourself, a relationship has to be saved together. There are support groups for family and friends which he can attend (MIND can give you advice on this), and then there's the option of individual therapy...please just keep going, you're not a failure if you don't succeed - only if you don't try.

Thank you

My relationship with my husband is at a point where I have to do something or at least try. I am quite understanding of my BPD and at a point where I am so very self aware of what I do and why I do it. My husband has been so understanding and helpful in helping me understand my not so nice behaviours. Right now we are working on how I perceive him, other people and events as either all good or all bad, I am trying to see said person or event for all that it is and accept them for what they are as whole. I am also downloading a book teaching emotional detachment.

My sometimes seeing my husband as the abuser turns me into an abuser that abuses him, I can see that now but it's still so very hard not doing it because as it is happening, I fully believe he is a bad person and my anger and abuse is a way of protecting myself in some sick way.

We have also discussed how he is allowed to have bad days - when he has bad days I start splitting and I also take everything he does personally and also have this urge to make him happy and make it my responsibility (which I used to do with my mum) which ends up in me blaming myself and then taking it out on him.

I am also working on understanding people have their own opinions and are allowed to have their opinion and just because it isn't the same as mine doesn't mean they are attacking me or make me a bad person.

I am also working on splitting..if you ask me, I totally get the concept that ppl are not all good or all bad, but when it comes to ppl, this is what I do and because of it I don't really have any friends anymore and my relationship with my hubby is very volatile.

It all sounds like basic stuff but for me it isn't. I am aware, when pointed out, I can see how I do these things, but I still can't stop doing them because at the time it's the only way I know how to makes sense of things.

I am waiting for therapy through the NHS but I work from home and can afford to go private so I am going to start looking for someone that specialises in BPD and DBT.

Like I said, I am at a point where I am able to see what I do and why I do it, but where I am sometimes stumped is knowing how to do it any different.

Sorry that went on but thank you for asking

[allme]

Originally Posted by Harmacy

People with BPD have heightened emotional empathy but sometimes lack cognitive empathy

Hi,

What does that mean exactly?

[ifst5]

Originally Posted by allme

Thank you

My relationship with my husband is at a point where I have to do something or at least try. I am quite understanding of my BPD and at a point where I am so very self aware of what I do and why I do it. My husband has been so understanding and helpful in helping me understand my not so nice behaviours. Right now we are working on how I perceive him, other people and events as either all good or all bad, I am trying to see said person or event for all that it is and accept them for what they are as whole. I am also downloading a book teaching emotional detachment.

My sometimes seeing my husband as the abuser turns me into an abuser that abuses him, I can see that now but it's still so very hard not doing it because as it is happening, I fully believe he is a bad person and my anger and abuse is a way of protecting myself in some sick way.

We have also discussed how he is allowed to have bad days - when he has bad days I start splitting and I also take everything he does personally and also have this urge to make him happy and make it my responsibility (which I used to do with my mum) which ends up in me blaming myself and then taking it out on him.

I am also working on understanding people have their own opinions and are allowed to have their opinion and just because it isn't the same as mine doesn't mean they are attacking me or make me a bad person.

I am also working on splitting..if you ask me, I totally get the concept that ppl are not all good or all bad, but when it comes to ppl, this is what I do and because of it I don't really have any friends anymore and my relationship with my hubby is very volatile.

It all sounds like basic stuff but for me it isn't. I am aware, when pointed out, I can see how I do these things, but I still can't stop doing them because at the time it's the only way I know how to makes sense of things.

I am waiting for therapy through the NHS but I work from home and can afford to go private so I am going to start looking for someone that specialises in BPD and DBT.

Like I said, I am at a point where I am able to see what I do and why I do it, but where I am sometimes stumped is knowing how to do it any different.

Sorry that went on but thank you for asking

That sounds great - breaking things down is the easiest way to pin point how to prioritise your attention.

It's good that you can go private - I'd recommend going private with MH care if you can, the problem with the NHS is that they're slow on diagnosis and even slower on treatment. There are some great places to go for private therapy - DBT is usually a two year program so go somewhere reputable and comfortable enough to use long term. MIND have a good list of private therapists that you can check out in your area.

I can only wish you the best, it's not an easy process - you just have to find what works for you. It won't be the same for every person. Keep us updated.

[Harmacy]

Originally Posted by allme

Hi,

What does that mean exactly?

Hi, sorry for the jargon. It's based on a few things I've read while studying psychology and reading about empathy.

One theory is that empathy is split into two parts. Emotional (to do with understanding the feelings of others) and cognitive (which involves understanding what other people are thinking and their beliefs: all the non emotional stuff).

Some argue that emotional empathy is high in people with BPD. We are extremely sensitive to how other people are feeling and look for emotional signs to see whether they're angry or sad etc. We may not be so good at accurately understanding why they feel that way (which is the cognitive bit) but we know how it feels and if anything we care too much.

Cognitive empathy is the part of empathy that deals with understanding what people are thinking and why and is less intuitive for some people. People with high cognitive empathy can make good judgments about what other people think and believe in a certain situation but may be oblivious to how they feel or just not care.

It's just a theory but some psychologists believe that BPD is an empathy imbalance. Having too much emotional empathy without such a high level of cognitive empathy to balance it out can lead to a lot of the behaviours associated with BPD.

To someone without BPD it could appear that we lack emotions but the opposite is true and in fact our emotions are too intense and very real.

[allme]

Originally Posted by Harmacy

Hi, sorry for the jargon. It's based on a few things I've read while studying psychology and reading about empathy.

One theory is that empathy is split into two parts. Emotional (to do with understanding the feelings of others) and cognitive (which involves understanding what other people are thinking and their beliefs: all the non emotional stuff).

Some argue that emotional empathy is high in people with BPD. We are extremely sensitive to how other people are feeling and look for emotional signs to see whether they're angry or sad etc. We may not be so good at accurately understanding why they feel that way (which is the cognitive bit) but we know how it feels and if anything we care too much.

Cognitive empathy is the part of empathy that deals with understanding what people are thinking and why and is less intuitive for some people. People with high cognitive empathy can make good judgments about what other people think and believe in a certain situation but may be oblivious to how they feel or just not care.

It's just a theory but some psychologists believe that BPD is an empathy imbalance. Having too much emotional empathy without such a high level of cognitive empathy to balance it out can lead to a lot of the behaviours associated with BPD.

To someone without BPD it could appear that we lack emotions but the opposite is true and in fact our emotions are too intense and very real.

Thanks for the explanation but I don't think I am fully grasping it. Sorry So can you give me an example of where we may show lack of empathy and an example where we are able to feel it?

[Harmacy]

Originally Posted by allme

Thanks for the explanation but I don't think I am fully grasping it. Sorry So can you give me an example of where we may show lack of empathy and an example where we are able to feel it?

I suppose if I think about myself then an example of where I have shown a lack of cognitive empathy could be when friends don't respond to text messages (a big trigger for me). Instead of understanding that they may have many possible reasons for not responding I often react by becoming anxious and hostile towards them. Usually this is contained in my head and I've learned not to act on the feelings but even recently I decided someone hated me and that the friendship was over when they didn't respond the same day. I later found out they'd genuinely lost their phone so there was no way they could have replied.

As for feeling emotional empathy, I spend a lot of time wondering if I've hurt people's feelings and trying to look for signs of how people feel towards me. I often see anger and hostility in faces unless they are quite obviously smiling directly at me. I also have a tough time handling any kind of mean humour and have reacted with rage sometimes at even quite minor teasing that others would have probably laughed off, both when it's directed at me and others. I seem to be affected by the emotions of those around me excessively and sometimes find negative emotions hard to deal with. Even positive emotions like people praising me sometimes make me feel uncomfortable (that doesn't happen very often lately though).

[HD7970GHZ]

Hey Allme,

I want to thank you for posting this. I find it very helpful in hearing - not only for myself - but also to clarify for others; just what it means to be a Borderline.

I can tell you right now that whoever wrote this is coming from a negative place. I also think that whoever wrote this - may have had a failed relationship with someone with borderline personality disorder - and has thus, become bitter and in need of an explanation for something he/she couldn't possibly understand. Rather than pursuing genuine explanations for these things he/she does not understand – they turn towards whatever self-indulgent explanation best fits their conscience – whether that is positive or negative in relation to borderline people or not – it is false and I think anyone with Borderline Personality Disorder would agree that it is false. That being said, I would have to admit that the reason why he/she couldn't possibly understand - is that they themselves, are lacking in the [empathy towards others] department. In which case – I can only hope that this certain someone who wrote what you shared with us – is capable of showing empathy towards others – otherwise they will most certainly feel the effects of, “what goes around comes around,” in time – while under the spell of, “everyone else is to blame for my problems.”

I am personally triggered by what this certain someone has written. Primarily because it is invalidating, [and that is what it is] but also because it is [in my mind] testament to why it is so hard to be understood as a Borderline in our society. In my mind – anyone who thinks such narrow minded judgments - is both weak in character and in insight and wisdom, but also lacks the ability to care for others, thus lacks empathy.

We Borderlines DO NOT lack empathy. If anything – we care too much for others. We have such painful lives and thus (I believe), we are better able to relate to others - on an emotional level. Being that emotions can temporarily override our intellect and rational thought processes – we can safely say that we have poor emotional intelligence, but an abundance of emotions, thus the capacity to feel empathy towards others when they are in an emotional state.

I think this alludes to what Harmacy meant when he/she said: “People with BPD have heightened emotional empathy but sometimes lack cognitive empathy”

I’ll explain more:

When I was experiencing my worst emotional pain (Emotional Dysregulation) – my therapists taught me to utilize a skill. This skill was based on the foundation of CBT (Cognitive Behavior Therapy): That our thoughts can influence our emotions, that our emotions can influence our behaviors.

(Notice I have underlined the word ‘can.’) This meaning: that we can continue to allow our thoughts to influence our emotions and so on – or we can learn skills in order to prevent emotions from influencing behaviors.

After-all, our emotions DO NOT have to effect our behavior.

Normally, as a Borderline sufferer – my thoughts DO lead to intense emotions - and my intense emotions DO lead to intense behaviors – and it DOES lead into a negative spiral and worsening of symptoms. It is very easy to fall into this cycle and it takes years of therapy, humiliation, practice and insight in order to prevent unfavorable behavior from happening…

In order to prevent these thoughts from negatively influencing my emotions and behaviors – I had to identify the specific thoughts that were triggering – and then remain aware of them when they would arise - and remind myself that they are and can be; irrational and based on deeply withheld fears and insecurities surrounding abandonment, invalidation, being alone, etc. (Something we all share)

My therapists taught me to utilize a skill they labeled as, “intellectual override.” This skill is to be utilized when I become insecure, anxious and bombarded with triggering thoughts – so that I can remain aware and allow my intellect to override my emotions – thus, preventing any unnecessary behaviors from happening…

This is NOT easy.

It is extraordinarily hard to tell oneself – that our thoughts are not true. But with practice and continued utilizing of skills such as, “intellectual override,” we can challenge our irrational thoughts and gain some control over them – so that we can prevent further cycles and unhealthy symptoms from arising.

***I must note that I do NOT mean that our thoughts are always irrational. There are times when I have been correct in thinking someone was going to leave me. However, them leaving me was always a result of my fears of them leaving. They only ever left me when I first began thinking they would leave me - as self-fulfilling prophecy.***

I still get these thoughts. They can bombard me to the point where no amount of awareness can possibly stop my emotions or behaviors. But as time goes on – I am better able to remain aware and utilize intellectual override – despite the intensity of my emotions.

To get back to topic: I think Harmacy means: (And please feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that we with Borderline have a tendency to be intensely - emotional creatures. So much so that our emotions can and often do – override our intellectual and logical side of the brain. This is because we are set into fight or flight mode – when we sense our worse fears are coming true. Our body is literally set off – and we feel as though the entire world is falling apart; particularly surrounding our specific triggers.

I suppose it is safe to say that we with Borderline are blessed with the emotional capacity to experience life at its best, thus have rewarding insight and empathy towards others with the ability to make change where we feel it is necessary – but we are equally (and perhaps, more-so) cursed with the occasional lack of self-control and black and white thinking that emotions can and often do entail. What makes us capable of being the best friend or lover in the world, is unfortunately, what can also make us one of the worst - and that is the crux that is borderline. (From my experience)

In saying this, it is VITALLY important (for us borderlines) to remain aware
of our tendency to stir relationships and POTENTIALLY make them more challenging than they normally would be, if we were not Borderline. We cannot possibly lie to ourselves - that relationships are any easier because of our illness. Life is challenging; being lonely and without relationships – but it is, and or can be: equally challenging for us to have relationships. In saying this - we must also allow ourselves benefit of the doubt - and validate our own needs – and not fall into the trap that is: [we are always to blame for everything that goes wrong in our lives and in others]. We deal with enough guilt and shame as it is. We have a tendency to take on the feelings of the world and direct it inwards. Sometimes we direct it outwards – but it is only ever because we feel so strongly.

I know for a fact that I am not to blame for ALL the challenges that arise in the relationships that I form, but I can see how the repetition of failed relationships can convince me into thinking that I am to blame and that no one else does anything wrong – which could further lead to my continued acceptance for abusive people into my life – whom I continue associating with while under the false assumption – that I am lucky to have them around because I am to blame for everything… Lots of ways these troubling interpersonal issues could lead. This in my opinion – highlights the importance of constant awareness and desire to understand ourselves and others.

Perhaps I am speaking out of context here – perhaps I am on the only one who thinks this way – but this has been my experience.

I for one, have had to learn the hard way from a myriad of failed relationships - but they were also some of the best relationships I have ever had. To me, the challenge was worth the pain. I'm sure some of us can relate, perhaps others will disagree. Ultimately – it is not black and white and that is what I am trying to say.

I've had difficulty accepting my faults in the relationships that I make, whether they be friend, family or foe. The most challenging part for me: is despite all of the awareness; things still tend to go wrong in my relationships. I fight so hard for a relationship to go right - that they end up going wrong... Some would argue that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, that I am the source for all my problems. (I must admit that I have become fond of that theory as it seems to become more valid as time passes by)

In saying that I fight for a relationship to go properly - I not only fight others, I also fight myself. It is a constant battle and most times there is no evidence of it because it is internal and hidden from those I am in a relationship with. In saying this - I, in no way shape or form: see myself as being intentionally manipulative nor unrealistic in my attempts to save relationships. Because that is what it is - desperate attempts to save relationships. It is a genuine desire for a better, more solid relationship - that both parties benefit from. Someone in a relationship cannot possibly blame a borderline for wanting to have a better relationship. However, at times - we do become confused as to what is healthy and what is unhealthy - and that is what can lead to further challenges... Ideally we will find friends who are ready and willing to participate in the understanding and monitoring of our issues – and is non-judgmental in knowing what it entails. Unfortunately, not everyone understands mental illness to begin with – and being that we are borderlines – we are doubly misunderstood.

On the flip-side - I have also felt the need to sabotage relationships as well. This is no different than a recently divorced couple, or a victim to a partners cheating habits or abuse. I know the effect that a healthy relationship can have on me - but I also know the effect that an unhealthy relationship can have on me - and I would be doing myself a major disservice, and invalidating my own needs, wants and desires - if I did not rid of unhealthy relationships in my life.

Look at things on the flip-side: if we were in a relationship with someone and we were unhealthy - and we brought more challenges into a relationship than was worthwhile - why wouldn't our partner leave? (This is not meant to make us feel guilty and I apologize if this is triggering to anyone.)

This is just utilizing intellectual override – pointing out the logical answers as to why someone would want to leave us.

I don't blame the people who have ended a relationship with me. This was a painful realization. I suppose in order for me to come to this understanding - I had to build enough self-esteem within myself - in order to determine what is and what is not: a healthy relationship - and then I had a solid enough foundation with which - I could discover - when and where to set boundaries. This has allowed me to challenge my black and white thinking and I started to see the merit in cost/benefit analysis and the important fact: that pursuing our own needs, wants and desires in a relationship - is NOT indicative of selfish manipulations nor antisocial personality traits.

We are human. We are social creatures who yearn for the close connection that is both normal and deserved. For us borderlines - this is only intensified and prolonged and at times; uncontrollable. Because we borderlines are highly sensitive and emotional people – it would make sense that we constantly seek out relationships that are better and more favorable – otherwise we could be hurt by the slightest thing… It’s a way of providing for ourselves: the need for relationship, as well as the need for a secure relationship. We cannot possibly guilt ourselves into wanting those two things at the same time – as in my mind – both should be one in the same.

Unfortunately, for us Borderlines: (at least from my own experience) it takes a special someone (who's able to see past our negative traits) in order to validate us in ways that are both accurate and fair. In my life - the only people who have ever fulfilled that role - are trained professionals who genuinely care to understand and are willing to take the time to further understand us as the hurt individuals that we are. In saying this – I would never take what someone else has written – as a literal definition of borderline sufferers. Especially if they are not capable of showing empathy towards us.

Sorry for the rant. I hope it was relevant.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

[allme]

Originally Posted by Harmacy

I suppose if I think about myself then an example of where I have shown a lack of cognitive empathy could be when friends don't respond to text messages (a big trigger for me). Instead of understanding that they may have many possible reasons for not responding I often react by becoming anxious and hostile towards them. Usually this is contained in my head and I've learned not to act on the feelings but even recently I decided someone hated me and that the friendship was over when they didn't respond the same day. I later found out they'd genuinely lost their phone so there was no way they could have replied.

As for feeling emotional empathy, I spend a lot of time wondering if I've hurt people's feelings and trying to look for signs of how people feel towards me. I often see anger and hostility in faces unless they are quite obviously smiling directly at me. I also have a tough time handling any kind of mean humour and have reacted with rage sometimes at even quite minor teasing that others would have probably laughed off, both when it's directed at me and others. I seem to be affected by the emotions of those around me excessively and sometimes find negative emotions hard to deal with. Even positive emotions like people praising me sometimes make me feel uncomfortable (that doesn't happen very often lately though).

Thanks for this, I think I understand....from what I have read and from what you've said, this is how I interpret it:

Cognitive empathy is understanding or at least knowing other people have their own set of beliefs, emotions, opinions and feelings. Does it mean cognitive empathy is the ability to of becoming aware of other people's emotions and feelings without actually feeling them ourselves and just have the awareness? From this awareness we are then able to help or make that person feel better because we understand (not feel) what they are going through? Maybe not always help but at least have an awareness.

Emotional empathy is when we take on the emotion and feel it ourselves...like a mirror? Is emotional empathy seeing someone in an emotional state ---> feel it (mirror them) ourselves and take understanding from that?

I am sorry, I don't know why I am struggling to understand the difference...but I think it is important I do fully understand. I will keep reading about it until something clicks.

Can anyone comment on how close I am and where I am going wrong?

[allme]

HD7970ghz - thank you so much for putting in so much time and effort in what you wrote. It was very helpful and insightful

[Harmacy]

Thanks for your reply allme, I agree entirely with what you've written and we seem to be thinking along the same lines. This thread has been really helpful in thinking about what BPD means to me so I'm glad you started it.

HD790GHZ, your post also makes a huge amount of sense to me and I thank you for taking the time to write it. Like you, I find the process of starting to understand BPD and how it makes us feel and behave is slow but rewarding. I still get bad days when nothing seems to work and I feel like a prisoner of my emotions so I like the idea of the intellectual override technique you describe. Something I'll be looking into for sure.

I'm going to take some direct quotes from the article I'll try to keep it safe but please be careful.

It is interesting to note that this is written buy a self confessed sociopath. Might be interesting to get the opinions of the AsPD's here.

There are numerous stories of borderlines coming to view therapists as unrealistically heroic as they attempt to aid or sympathize with the BPD, seducing the therapist, and then later ‘negatively splitting’ the therapist and either claiming a false rape or simply reporting the sexual contact and destroying the therapists entire career.

Because the mental health professional had absolutely no say in what happened? Notice how the poster likes to lay ALL of the blame at the feet of the BPD?

As I run a blog that repeatedly argues that sociopathic traits are not inherently negative and that sociopathic people should be treated with less of a societal stigma, it would seem obvious that I’d agree with them.

Ah, this person fights the stigma of other sociopathic personalities therefore the fact that they attack this one must make their claims legitimate. A manipulative tactic all of their own. (Tries to make you think they have a level of expertise.)

...when even the almost inevitably toxic male narcissists are treated with at least a grain of respect.

Gender stereotyping. Women can be narcissists too. (May be interesting to ask the NPD's just how much respect they are getting.)

The low-functioning type will then very quickly begin to explain that this means they tend towards being victimized by abusers and that they have, as a result, had a miserable life filled with abuse and maltreatment.

Does saying you have been victimized immediately invalidate the the fact that you have?

They will almost certainly be a serial self-harmer, to the point where scars on the wrists were for a long time considered a dead-giveaway of BPD in adults.

It was. Past tense. People grew a brain and realized many disorders SI. Using an outdated stereotype kind of invalidates the rest. (Also note the use of "almost certainly". This way they can cover their tracks if someone points out they know a BPD who doesn't harm. There is a word for this that I can't quite think of right now.)

how can a person who feels emotionally deadened have intense and deeply felt mood swings?

Because it is one of the mood swings?

Shutting down one's emotions is also a fairly common defense tactic. Stands to reason that someone who feels intensely will shut down fairly often.

You’ll also hear that these people are completely incapable of being fixed, helped or of changing –

The success stories surrounding DBT are lies obviously. BPD is considered highly treatable by many.

When you meet a person with BPD (and no self-awareness), you will meet what very quickly appears to be your perfect partner.

and then leave them in the gutter – until, of course, they get bored and return to torment their now-victim again.

Both of these are also typically associated with your average NPD as well. Why does this poster have so much issue with a BPD doing it and not the NPD? (Looking for a scape goat maybe? Hate the BPD not me!)

This is also why BPDs are so vulnerable to actual abusive relationships as the victimized party – these almost without exception begin with a period of concerted manipulation, which the borderline will entirely and completely fall for, as she will ignore the warning signs that would make any other person suspicious

Also applies to your average co-dependent/ dependent. And no 'normal' person has ever been duped by an abusive partner I'm sure.

Also interesting to note that they claim the BPD partner acts perfectly at the beginning of the relationship but the abusive BPD will show many of those warning signs themselves so the person who fell for the BPD has clearly done some ignoring themselves. (Remember what I said before about refusing to look at their own dependency issues.)

utterly self-deluded into believing that they are, above else, a ‘good person’ and a ‘victim’

People with BPD tend towards low self esteem and self worth. One of the biggest problems people with BPD face is understanding that they are in fact a good person.

What is it that makes you so special that you can repair a person who is considered utterly beyond the point of no return by people who have spent their entire lives involved in treating mental disorders? I, myself, learnt this the hard way – and frankly, I consider my once-held belief that I could ‘help’ a borderline to be evidence mostly of my own tendency towards narcissism.

Yup, burned. (If this person is indeed a narcissist one can also be pretty certain that their ego has been severely bruised by the fact that they were played so now they need the other person to be a source of unconquerable evil to cover up their own failure.)

This person's views on splitting are hilarious. They act as though it is some evil device invented by people with BPD to manipulate instead of a childhood defence mechanism that a person with BPD hasn't grown out of.

I guess all those kiddies are manipulative little brats too.

Article seems to me to be pretty clearly biased.

This person has been burned and instead of admitting their own faults they are trying to find a way to lay all the blame at the other persons feet.

[allme]

Thanks for that Betenoire!