Training or torture - triggers violent

Moved here from Survivors of Abuse

Everyone here knows the tough part in all of this ... the surviving.

I appreciate the support, but I don't like it that my words make others cry. Maybe it isn't my words at all, but your own experiences. Either way, it concerns me very much that my injuries make others cry as well. If I had simply let them control me and cry at their threats, I wouldn't have some of the scars I have now.

This attitude that I must win at least the battle of the minds caused me much grief. I should have let the tears flow and let them think they were winning. I saved a lot of tears, almost enough to drown in.

The bosses in the Army recognized my attitude right away, and their job was to break me down so they could put me together in the way they wanted. I wish I had known the rules of the game when I started. It would have been much easier.

During my training as one of the most elite of the elite warriors, I was captured by one of the "pretend" enemy, one of the cadre. The sucker was wearing his cadre uniform or we wouldn't have let him get close to us. As it was, he walked up to us in the wide open and when he was next to us, he said, "You're captured!" .... "What, how can that be? You're cadre."

He pulled a red arm band from his pocket and slid it on his upper arm. See ... I guess I was out of uniform. You're captured." We were so stupid we didn't even fight him. Six of us. We should have just beat the crap out of him and run away. But ... we were brought to a central point and moved by trucks to the POW camp. Stripped naked 100%. A number written on our backs.

Bags were put over our heads and taped shut so we couldn't see anything. Then we were harassed over and over as they tried to put fear into us. (it was a game. training. what's to fear -- I soon found out what's to fear).

They had us lean forward onto our toes, ankles tied and put our hands with wrists tied on a horizontal pole. In the 100 degree sun in a swamp. And stay there.

When fatigue made us fall, we were attacked by two cadre with electric cattle prods ... the precursor of today's Tazers. With ankles and wrists tied, and blindfolded with the sack, it was tough to even stand. Every time I tried to get onto my knees to get upright, shock. Fall back to the ground, shock. Yell out in pain, shock. The idea was to keep us from getting back on the pole even though they kept ordering us to stand up and lean in there.

We were on this pole all day. Of course we fell. Even the strongest fell. If they felt like you were falling too often, the shocks were redoubled and aimed between the legs. I couldn't see it, but I felt blood running down my side down my legs. At first I thought it was sweat, but the swarming flies helped me understand it.

Sometime that day, one of the cadre said to me or to someone else, "You really like this don't you." I tried to attack him even though I was tied and blindfolded. Big mistake. The cadre ganged up on me. Blindfolded and tied hand and foot, they kept stinging me with the cattle prods. All over my naked body. Laughing when they hit my testicles and %#@&#!.

I tried to tear the blindfold off, but others held my arms.

Late in the afternoon we were removed from the pole one at a time and taken to an interrogation room. Blindfold removed. Untied. Water. And in a very friendly way, good cop bad cop, given an opportunity to talk, to tell about our training. about our unit. about ourselves.

And here's where the teacher's "training" paid off. I knew I could keep from talking, no matter what they did. After a few questions I said, "OK, can I have another canteen of water?" They asked if i would talk if they gave me water and I agreed. I drank the entire canteen in one chug a lug and handed it back.

Question. Silence. Question. Silence. Question - whack ... silence on the ground. Cattle prod brought in. And I tried to grab it to turn it on them. Shock. Shock. Shock. Another prod and another. Three of them shocking me all over and laughing at the way it made me jump. Always threatening between my legs and sometimes making contact there.

Question. Silence. "You little b*, you're probably too stupid to know anything anyway. If you want to pass this course, you'd better talk." Silence. (thank you teacher for the early training).

"You little s*, think you tricked us out of a canteen of water, don't you? Let's go back out here and see who tricked who." Back outside where they tied my hands above my head, hanging me from a tree limb with only my toes touching the ground...so they could leisurely stick me with the cattle prod and laugh.

Was this training or abuse? Did it toughen me up for tough assignments or break me down to do their will? I don't know if it helped me complete missions, but I know it has affected my mind forever. Maybe I wasn't as tough as they made me think.

Back on the rack. And so it went for 24 hours or more. And the whole time I'm reliving the days in school with the teacher and the bullies.

I learned from my teacher to never go to battle with holes in my socks. I learned from the cadre to never get captured by enemy soldiers. And this is where I learned how NOT to treat the soldiers we captured. I knew from experience how the torture could turn into silence.

The trainees who did give answers in that little interrogation room flunked the course and were removed that day from the secret training base.

This story does not identify me because they did this to hundreds of soldiers, some on the way back to the ranks and the rest of us on the way into extreme warfare.

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I want you to know Troy, I read your story and it didn't make me cry. I was saddened by it however. I'm saddened to know that you and so many others have gone through that kind of experience, saddened to hear the betrayal you felt, saddened to know that there is something in humanity that causes us to behave in such ways.

I hope that you and others might feel you can share more of your experiences here and find the personal healing you need. Maybe even some closure. I hope it's okay that I said that. I know that when people have gone through extreme experiences they might not want to close the door on it because they honor themselves and others by remembering. So maybe closure is not so much the word I mean, maybe a better word would be "peace". I hope you (and others) find a way of making peace with your experiences.

You do understand ...

There are a lot of vets who would like this peace. It's tough to tell about these things because some of us (me for one) feel like we are dishonoring the country when we tell of outrageous things. We feel like we are dishonoring the memories of those killed if we describe things we know were wrong. We feel like nothing will be improved by the telling, so we keep the secrets and the secrets are killing us.

Thanks for helping me find a way to break the silence... and thank you for not hating me for what you hear. *tears

Troy

Troy
I think you are very brave by telling
Things like this never should happen imo
By telling your story you will be helping others to tell
None of us would hate you
cry all you need.................

muffy

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Troy said:
You do understand ...

There are a lot of vets who would like this peace. It's tough to tell about these things because some of us (me for one) feel like we are dishonoring the country when we tell of outrageous things. We feel like we are dishonoring the memories of those killed if we describe things we know were wrong. We feel like nothing will be improved by the telling, so we keep the secrets and the secrets are killing us.

Thanks for helping me find a way to break the silence... and thank you for not hating me for what you hear. *tears

Troy

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The people who say we are dishonoring our country by speaking the truth only want to believe in fairy tales that are fit for little children. These people can watch movies of a Hollywood version of what war is allegedly supposed to be like, and then criticize us when we don't live up to their fairy tale standards.

Speaking about the past that haunts us is the first step to real peace bro.

Since society does not have the awesome power of the forgiveness of the soul, they have no authority to judge me. That is something that is between me and the Highest Power, and no one else. I think Troy, that if you continue to seek reconciliation and peace as you showed us here today, then you will find it.
-Max

I think many people just don't understand war at all. How could they? It's no longer taught, our history, as it happened, if at all, and certainly not with the complete picture. War is not normal living, it's a dirty, miserable event that includes inhumane experiences and demands. I guess it's a "necessary evil" in battling a greater evil, that being one of having freedom and human rights taken away.

Max ... *tears & panic

Why do your kind words bring this reaction?...

"Since society does not have the awesome power of the forgiveness of the soul, they have no authority to judge me. That is something that is between me and the Highest Power, and no one else. I think Troy, that if you continue to seek reconciliation and peace as you showed us here today, then you will find it."

I'm a civilian and I hope it's ok for me to post. I just wanted to tell you that I'm so glad you are here. I feel no judgment, only compassion. You are a much stronger person than I am. I hope you find healing here.

Civilians are what it is all about, Doh... you are exactly the reason the warriors are on the front line. You are the thing of greatest value. Even those civilians who don't recognize the value of the military are the reason soldiers are facing the enemy.

Some ppl were made to be warriors and some weren't ... you do have the strength and courage and you've put yours to work in other ways.

Sometimes I meet ppl my age who tell me they missed being in the military for one reason or another. Some feel like they must also tell me they wished they had not missed the "opportunity." Others tell me they intentionally dodged the service. I don't know why they tell me these things or the reaction they expect from me. What they get is a "Great. I'm glad things worked out for you. You did what you were supposed to do and I did what I was supposed to do."

Thank you for your note... of course, you belong here....your comments are welcomed and treasured. I'm proud of you for leaving me a message.

T.

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Troy: Why do your kind words bring this reaction?...

I found these ones struck me most...

InsaneMax: The people who say we are dishonoring our country by speaking the truth only want to believe in fairy tales that are fit for little children. These people can watch movies of a Hollywood version of what war is allegedly supposed to be like, and then criticize us when we don't live up to their fairy tale standards.

Funny how those who are classified "insane" often seem to make the most sense to me.

Troy: "You did what you were supposed to do and I did what I was supposed to do."

Yep.

Regards/Namaste

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Troy said:
Max ... *tears & panic

Why do your kind words bring this reaction?...

"Since society does not have the awesome power of the forgiveness of the soul, they have no authority to judge me. That is something that is between me and the Highest Power, and no one else. I think Troy, that if you continue to seek reconciliation and peace as you showed us here today, then you will find it."

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Troy-
I apologize for not answering sooner, but I haven't been back to this forum in a few days.

Strong emotions are really a great thing. They remind us that the human spirit is very hard to kill, no matter what adverse circumstances we've experienced in our past. Your essay says something of the ability of the human soul to overcome any obstacle. That's powerful. You have depth like very few people I've ever seen before, and you have the guts to share it. You should join a VA PTSD group, as the veterans returning from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars could really use your experience. I don't usually recommend the VA, but many veterans have very little options when they return, and they could benefit from someone whose been in their shoes; I'd hate to leave them up to the less experienced VA employed psychology and psychiatry staff (shudder).

I should mention that no tears I ever shed, no despair I ever felt, and no panic attack that I ever experienced, ever came close to destroying me.

-MAX

Your question still remains unanswered to me, training or torture? Who knows, I know I don't.

VA counseling... ugh ... thot scares me more than combat.

I go to VA for some body parts but they've almost killed me couple of times with their inexperience and incompetence. They are well meaning now, but if I really get sick, take me far far away.

I appreciate your remarks about sharing with newer vets... you are probably right. And I do want to help other vets in any way I can .... whew... if VA is the only way.... ugh... maybe some other way as well.

Tough... I dunno about that either ... just another pilgrim walking along the road, and I appreciate your walking with me.

T.

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Troy said:
VA counseling... ugh ... thot scares me more than combat.

I go to VA for some body parts but they've almost killed me couple of times with their inexperience and incompetence. They are well meaning now, but if I really get sick, take me far far away.

I appreciate your remarks about sharing with newer vets... you are probably right. And I do want to help other vets in any way I can .... whew... if VA is the only way.... ugh... maybe some other way as well.

Tough... I dunno about that either ... just another pilgrim walking along the road, and I appreciate your walking with me.

T.

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Troy--
I don't see most of the VA as even being "well meaning."
Maybe somewhere there are one or two real professionals who act like professionals and treat us veterans with respect, but...the odds are not good, especially in psychiatry/psychology, where they can't take xrays or do a blood test to find the problem and fix it. I don't know why so many unprofessional and unethical employees in caregiving professions are attracted to the VA. Disturbing.

Personally, I will never use a VA, even if I have no health insurance in the future. It's out of safety and out of protest at the disgusting way they usually conduct business. Unfortunately, many vets, especially returning vets, with no job, or a job with little to none in the way of healthcare, have little choice.

My buddy went to a PTSD group just last year. The "PTSD Coordinator" who ran his group, was not only condescending, but she was trying out her research on the group, to see if her unproven way of PTSD group therapy would work to provide "support" for her soapbox stand. They all left the group before within a few sessions, disgusted and frustrated. The woman had obviously not one ounce of common sense, and zero in ability to work with vets with PTSD. I'd laugh if it was actually funny, but rather I find myself disgusted...I get too hostile if I think about it too much how we are treated there too much.

I see a private psychologist who I have real respect for, and I got real lucky boy I'll tell you. It WAS a leap of faith, and I'm happy I made it.
I understand not wanting to open up a can of worms with someone who might not know what they are doing...it's definitely tough to make the blind leap. I do think you'd be helpful if you only went to the VA for PTSD group, because so many younger vets are wandering around out there lost, and really appreciate the support from the vets of prior wars.

I have to agree with you Max. I was with my late husband for many of his appointments and saw how stupid acting some of their so called professionals were. alot of them were students in training and had no clue. I have however seen some of the VA drs to be very compassionate and caring but then the VA would move them to another unit or just fire them. If either of you have a vet center near you it might help too. those are normally not close to a VA hospital.

I saw an American doctor at VA awhile back....almost always have doctors from other countries otherwise. And you know the reason for the foreign doctors .... ?

The reason they hire these ppl is that VA is a federal operation and the doctors do not have to have a U.S. medical license. They do not have to be certified by a state medical association, etc.

They work cheap.

You get either interns or brand new doctors or foreigners. I have no real objection to the foreigner, except it is nice to be able to understand our doctor's instructions and have confidence that they, too, understand what you are saying.

So, makes me wonder what the middle aged American doc was doing there. When I asked, there was some mumbo jumbo about having a practice in a nearby town, turning it over to someone else, and so on. I have to say that I didn't even understand what he was telling me ... much like the way I feel when some of the foreign docs give me medical instructions.

LOL ... one annual physical I went to turned out to be a blood test and an interview. I sat with the doc and chatted for about 10 min and he pronounced me a-ok. He didn't even have the blood work up at that point.

The stories could go on and on ... and mine are not even among the most outrageous stories.

Yesterday, someone told me of their step dad who went to VA for PTSD. They put him in a group of 70 homeless ppl .... 70! ... and he didn't go back after the first round. Young, intern like person running the discussion.

Anyway. You got the point. I won't be going there for counseling unless it is to help others. And even then, I'd probably get in trouble if I didn't turn off my BS detector.

tnx for your thoughts on all of this