Hey guys, many of you have probably heard the following statement at some point or another, but to me it is probably one of the most asinine statements ever made and could only have been made by a "happy/normal" person:

"Suicide is the most selfish way to die/one of the most selfish acts you can perpetrate."

What a load of crap!

As a person that has struggled with deep depression and suicidal thoughts on a daily basis, the terrible feelings that one suffers that accompany suicidal thoughts are anything but driven by selfishness.

I remember when I used to be quite suicidal, it was the feeling of being in everyone's way (especially "happy/normal" people's way) that drove and promoted these suicidal thoughts.

How on earth can people say it's selfish? You wish to die so that other people are no longer burdened with your presence (I know it's irrational, but that's the thought process). The suicidal person is constantly rejected, excluded, ignored, hated on, laughed at, talked about and made to feel unwelcome everywhere. He/she truly believes that other people wish they would just disappear, they truly believe that their death would make other's lives easier and make other people happy. It may be irrational, but their actions towards this person sure as hell doesn't make it seem any different.

And, then, when the person finally makes the most difficult decision of his/her life (i.e. take their own life for the apparent benefit of others), those people have the audacity, the effrontery and the barefaced cheek to turn around and say that person did something selfish (i.e. for their own personal gain/happiness and nobody else's).

Are they freakin' kidding!?!?!?

All they ever did was show that person how much they did not want them in their lives, how much they hoped and wished that he/she would just get out of their lives. Then, when they are given the thing they seek, they call that person selfish and say "How dare he/she do this to us?"

You see, the keyword is us. Therein lies the key to the whole thing, that one little pronoun, us. If they had said "How dare he/she do this to him/herself?" that would still be fine, but no, it's "How dare he/she do this to us?"

That's the whole damn problem. Once again everything revolves around them, and not the person who committed the suicide. Nothing's changed. Before the death, it was all about them, and after the death, it's still all about them. It's all about them, them, them, and nobody else.

Just thinking about this makes me sick to the pit of my stomach, just makes me want to hurl it's so pathetic.

How damn ironic that they should call the suicide victim selfish, when they are the ones who are most selfish and self-centred.

How funny that they should call it a "selfish" act. Not a "gruesome" act, an "unfortunate" act, an "unnecessary" act, a "sad" act, a "provocative" act. No, a "selfish" act.

Seems intriguing that they should call it a selfish act. That truly speaks volumes about them. If you really think about it, it must take a really selfish, self-centred human being to call such a sad and truly unnecessary thing selfish of all things.

You must be really selfish yourself in order to see selfishness in the desperate actions of a condemned, trapped human being that had (in their mind) nowhere to go and nowhere to run, and seemingly no other choice.

It just shows once again something that I've said all along, "normal/happy" people just don't give a crap and they only think of themselves. They don't give a damn about the truth and what the real reasons are for events/actions (whether good or bad) that occur in daily life, as long as they don't have to deal with it, it doesn't matter.

This links so nicely to a previous thread of mine, where I stated how "normal/happy" people don't give a damn about anyone that's autistic (that would be me). You might as well be a psychopath or a monster/killer, they see it all as the same thing and don't give a crap about the difference.

Do they really think suicide is like a normal homicide/murder where the killer is wickedly pursuing a self-centred goal/means-to-an-end for personal gain? Good grief.

[Bark]

I wouldn't lump all "normal/happy" people together, but I think this was wonderfully articulated. You have a great point there.

Originally Posted by Bark

I wouldn't lump all "normal/happy" people together, but I think this was wonderfully articulated. You have a great point there.

Yes, you do make a great point there, and that actually helps to illustrate the whole thing further.

By lumping "normal/happy" people together, one can demonstrate exactly what they do, by lumping suicide in together with other forms of murder/homicide/killing (which often have selfish motives).

But, you're right of course. If I did that, I'm doing no better than they are. There are many families that are truly torn apart by it (whether normal people or not) and at those moments people would probably say it was selfish, but they mean it in a way that shows they really miss that person. I kind of get that.

I think if I were to be a bit more specific, I mean those people who stand and judge from a distance always, you know the type. Those who always huddle in little groups, gossiping about everyone and everything, passing judgements like they pass gas.

[Nammu]

Yes, well said.

The times I've been suicidal I wasn't thinking I was out to hurt anyone, I was thinking this is what's best for everybody. I have no right to live and be a burden on anyone else. I may have also wanted to be out of my pain but I truly didn't think I mattered, that anyone would care.

Originally Posted by sidestepper

Yes, well said.

The times I've been suicidal I wasn't thinking I was out to hurt anyone, I was thinking this is what's best for everybody. I have no right to live and be a burden on anyone else. I may have also wanted to be out of my pain but I truly didn't think I mattered, that anyone would care.

Yes, so well said! I think you summed up my feelings exactly at the time: "I have no right to live and be a burden on anyone else." Everywhere I went, I felt like I was encroaching, burdening people, treading on toes, making a nuisance of myself. I truly believed that if I were dead, these people would all be relieved.

For a long time I regretted my own birth, because I believed I was forcing my unhappily married parents to stay together, I felt guilty when asking people for things in general, even when it was their job to provide a certain service, I even felt guilty walking over the road at one of those pedestrian-crossings where the cars have to wait for you to walk over, because I believed I was holding the driver up. At my university, I truly believed I didn't deserve to be there because it always seemed like other people loved their work and were so enthusiastic, and here I was dreading it daily. This feeds an unending cycle of deepening guilt and I believe it's what drives a person far enough so that one day he/she really believes their death is the solution or the answer to all the issues.

[Fuzzybear]

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

I don't want to diminish in any way the anguish suicidal people must feel, but as one who's father killed himself, please be assured that those left behind suffer dreadfully and for years. Please find another way.

Originally Posted by ManOfConstantSorrow

I don't want to diminish in any way the anguish suicidal people must feel, but as one who's father killed himself, please be assured that those left behind suffer dreadfully and for years. Please find another way.

I'm really sorry your father had to go that way.

I think for the family members left behind, yes it is an extremely big loss. And, if anyone should be allowed to comment on, or judge the person's action, it should be them as they would know the person best and would be closest to the truth.

I think I can see that I should have distinguished the group of people more clearly in my original post, I do apologize. When I say the "normal/happy" people, I mean those who have never been exposed to suicide or suicidal thoughts in any shape or form.

What I mean is those people who always seem to have some kind of opinion about these things, not knowing the first thing about what they are talking about, almost like those very rich people who always sit on TV telling the poor how to work with money and save money and that sort of thing, all the while not knowing how it is to go one day without money and the ability to buy even the most basic of stuff.

However, I still think that 95% of the time, suicides are not driven by selfish motives. Speaking from experience with suicidal thoughts, it is the thought of being a burden or a nuisance to all other human beings that just serves as such an unrelenting attack on an individual. I'm sure it is capable of driving people to their death.

[Nammu]

Originally Posted by StbGuy

Yes, so well said! I think you summed up my feelings exactly at the time: "I have no right to live and be a burden on anyone else." Everywhere I went, I felt like I was encroaching, burdening people, treading on toes, making a nuisance of myself. I truly believed that if I were dead, these people would all be relieved.

For a long time I regretted my own birth, because I believed I was forcing my unhappily married parents to stay together, I felt guilty when asking people for things in general, even when it was their job to provide a certain service, I even felt guilty walking over the road at one of those pedestrian-crossings where the cars have to wait for you to walk over, because I believed I was holding the driver up. At my university, I truly believed I didn't deserve to be there because it always seemed like other people loved their work and were so enthusiastic, and here I was dreading it daily. This feeds an unending cycle of deepening guilt and I believe it's what drives a person far enough so that one day he/she really believes their death is the solution or the answer to all the issues.

Wow, thanks for this. I was certain I was alone in thinking those kinds of things, the car crossing think and even having a job when there were so many others who needed a job and would be happy to have a job. I don't feel that way currently but when I am in the grip of a deep depression I do. I feel gulity just for taking up space and breathing air.

[Bark]

Originally Posted by sidestepper

Wow, thanks for this. I was certain I was alone in thinking those kinds of things, the car crossing think and even having a job when there were so many others who needed a job and would be happy to have a job. I don't feel that way currently but when I am in the grip of a deep depression I do. I feel gulity just for taking up space and breathing air.

Same here.

I also have this fear in my head that if I were to be truly happy in my life it would come at a huge expense for everyone else in some way or another, and that's why I always decide to leave my pursuit of happiness rather.

I always think it's better for me to be unhappy and dead, so that others are then happy.

[sherbet]

Thanks, Stb. When I'm thinking that way it's hard for me to imagine that anyone would really be hurt by my suicide. I figure it would be a little awkward while everyone pretends to be sorry but then people would quickly realize how much better things are without me.

I have also seen the pain that a suicide causes to a family…the saddest part is that the person didn't realize they would be missed. I agree it's unselfish.

It does feel like the happy people are one monolithic, ignorant group.

Originally Posted by sherbet

Thanks, Stb. When I'm thinking that way it's hard for me to imagine that anyone would really be hurt by my suicide. I figure it would be a little awkward while everyone pretends to be sorry but then people would quickly realize how much better things are without me.

I have also seen the pain that a suicide causes to a family…the saddest part is that the person didn't realize they would be missed. I agree it's unselfish.

It does feel like the happy people are one monolithic, ignorant group.

It is sooo true what you said. Thank you so much!

It is extremely sad to me too, how the person who committed suicide was unable to realize just how much they are missed once they are gone and what a void their death leaves behind.

It took me years to believe that for myself too, whilst being suicidal. I couldn't imagine people missing me, even longing for me. From my vantage point it seemed so obvious that all people wanted was for me to be gone for good, nothing else.

It is so uncanny how people's reactions, non-verbal messages, implied messages, motions and interest levels (lack thereof) can really begin to appear as solid evidence of outright rejection/condemnation to the sufferer.

I don't think anyone who has never been faced with his/her own apparent "redundancy" or feeling of being a "nuisance" in society/to the people around him/her will ever truly know just how absolutely horrible it is to feel this kind of thing.

There are no words to describe to someone who has never been suicidal just how terrible it feels to be faced with what seems to be a genuine, irrefutable indication by others that the world is a better place without you in it.

I realize that one can always take up other people's reactions in many different ways, and maybe one should have a thicker-skin in life. But, sometimes one is just confronted with what seems to be undeniable hatred others have for one, as a person.

I am sure in the midst of feeling this way, people who end up executing the plan and actually follow through with the suicide are truly at a point where the evidence seems so crystal clear that their death will be more necessary than their next breath. I am sure at that moment in time, that individual is not thinking about any kind of personal gain (in the form of attention/remembrance) they might get out of it (OK, save a few really sick people of course, who will do anything for others to pay homage to them).

I think people who say suicide is selfish are grossly over-generalizing.

I wish you all the best, along with everyone who has posted here so far (and who still might) that we can all shake this truly horrible feeling, and help each other shake it. I hope we can all see our own worth again some day, and that those who make us feel unwanted or not needed are in the minority and do not represent the views of all the people we have, or might still, meet in our lifetime. All the best.

[Chummy]

I agree with what you've written.

What I have also noticed is there are different reactions on the reason why someone took their own live.

Lately there has been several stories in the news about young people who commited suicide because they were bullied on school. Those kids aren't called selfish. Everyone blames the bullies or the school who didn't do anything about the bullying. They don't say those kids are selfish.

But when you are aren't bullied, but depressed or something else, and you commit suicide, then they call it a selfish act. While actually it's not really that different from someone who's bullied. Whatever the reason is that someone commit suicide, it's the a bit the same for all. They are in a lot of pain or feel hopeless and they feel there's no other way.

People who say suicide is selfish are just very ignorant.

[-jimi-]

For a while I felt pressure from everyone. To stay alive because dying was wrong. But to stay alive I also needed to be worthy and that meant being normal.

It's an IMPOSSIBLE situation.

I don't believe that anymore, that I'm a freak and that I am in an impossible situation. I do believe I AM worthy. If they are worthy so am I. Just by being born I'm worthy. Yes, I'm different. But who says that is being a freak? Who says that is wrong? "They" might. But I will not have their thoughts in my head, judging myself from what THEY think. I managed to stop that and ask myself what I think. And I do think it IS OK to be different!!!

It IS OK for me to be alive! And take up space!

It is quite easy to break someone so they don't think they are worthy, and hard to build them up again. Still stands it's just words against words, and their words are not worth more than mine. Even if my perspective overall might be less popular, doesn't make it bad or wrong. There might be people who benefit from what I say.

Suicide is painful for those left behind. And you might even not know who will feel the pain, can be someone you didn't even expect. If people can avoid suicide the better. Still of course suicide is not selfish. It's not like there is a reward. It's not like hogging the biggest piece of the cake. There is no reward, there is no relief. It's not a drug that takes away the pain. You can't benefit if you are not alive!!!

Be kind to yourselves. Don't internalize words of abusers and those who do not understand. They don't own the world.

Originally Posted by Chummy

I agree with what you've written.

What I have also noticed is there are different reactions on the reason why someone took their own live.

Lately there has been several stories in the news about young people who commited suicide because they were bullied on school. Those kids aren't called selfish. Everyone blames the bullies or the school who didn't do anything about the bullying. They don't say those kids are selfish.

But when you are aren't bullied, but depressed or something else, and you commit suicide, then they call it a selfish act. While actually it's not really that different from someone who's bullied. Whatever the reason is that someone commit suicide, it's the a bit the same for all. They are in a lot of pain or feel hopeless and they feel there's no other way.

People who say suicide is selfish are just very ignorant.

Yes, I think you're right. I think as we go into adulthood, the bullying never really stops. The bullies just take another form, like a boss, supervisor, colleague, or whatever. I don't think it truly ever goes away, it just becomes more complex and the bullying isn't so black and white anymore, it's grey. But, it's still there, even if it takes one years to figure it out.

[dandylin]

I think people who live with depression (my thoughts only) are more sensitive, affected and effected by the world. I think we see and feel the world more keenly than "happy" people.

[Dan208]

I used to be one of those people (years ago) that thought suicide was "a cowards way out". Then I went through my own depression, which I'm still fighting, and it made sense to me. I've never gotten to the point of wanting to commit suicide, but I do now understand how some people can get to that point of complete desperation, where they feel like suicide is the only way out.

Originally Posted by dandylin

I think people who live with depression (my thoughts only) are more sensitive, affected and effected by the world. I think we see and feel the world more keenly than "happy" people.

I think you're right, and I think we are more keen seekers of real truths too, not just accepting of false interpretations which create a false sense of well-being, or a false-sense of whatever it is that's going on.

I also think it ties in nicely to what Dan mentioned too, it is a personal learning curve. It makes one stop and say, hang-on, are these things people are saying really true?

I think it makes one mature to whole other level, and from personal experience I have found that it stops one from mindlessly mouthing statements after other people like some parrot, and actually makes one think for oneself.

Originally Posted by Dan208

I used to be one of those people (years ago) that thought suicide was "a cowards way out". Then I went through my own depression, which I'm still fighting, and it made sense to me. I've never gotten to the point of wanting to commit suicide, but I do now understand how some people can get to that point of complete desperation, where they feel like suicide is the only way out.

I think I was the same years ago. It's like you hear these statements in a movie/on TV somewhere for example and one doesn't really think about it further, one just kind of agrees because it sounds feasible or correct.

It's like this rubbish that has been pushed out on TV all these years, that real men don't quit and real men don't commit suicide, you fight and fight till the end and you become a hero to the world. The truth is, our lives are nothing like the fictional storm-troopers on TV. Real people have real problems.

The problem with TV and movies are that everyone forgets that they are just movies/fictional stories. These things aren't real and don't represent real situations. We forget it because entertainment on TV is so realistic today. It's stories about seemingly real people in real lives and those things really have the power to output messages to the world.

I've definitely learnt over the past few years - question everything and test everything, no matter how trivial it may seem.

These "problems" like depression come into our lives to teach, to make us think and reflect, and redefine for ourselves. It seeked us because we are truth seekers deep down. We have the capacity to question and think.

It is only my opinion, but I think if you are a person that has never been through what we have, you are happy yes, but ignorant and immature and incomplete as a human being.

This is probably the weirdest thing anyone has said before, but I'm kind of grateful almost for having gone through depression.

I once was blind, but now I see.

[Raindropvampire]

I'm one of those people who thinks it's selfish. Every time I've ever tried I was focused solely on myself and my pain. It was all about me and how I felt and how I just wanted the pain to stop. I remember the third time I tried I was weighing pros and cons. I thought of what it would do to my grandmother who was in the hospital and then thought screw it I won't be here for the fallout so who cares. Needless to say I even screw up suicide so I was here.

If that's not the epitome of selfish then what is?

[artichack]

I can only sympathize with those who ended there struggle with depression/anxiety.....by taking there lives.....the total feeling of dread.....pure dread.....having NO feelings other than the worst......hurting.......not able to smile. laugh.....and the constant self chatter in ones head that you are worthless....daring you to do things you would never think of doing......true MAJOR DEPRESSION.......If I did not get out of those horrible feelings...and had to live life day in and day out with no end in sight..........no selfishness there for ending the pain......the "normal" people you refer to have never...ever felt these pains.....

Originally Posted by Raindropvampire

I'm one of those people who thinks it's selfish. Every time I've ever tried I was focused solely on myself and my pain. It was all about me and how I felt and how I just wanted the pain to stop. I remember the third time I tried I was weighing pros and cons. I thought of what it would do to my grandmother who was in the hospital and then thought screw it I won't be here for the fallout so who cares. Needless to say I even screw up suicide so I was here.

If that's not the epitome of selfish then what is?

I don't see that as selfish at all. Every human being on earth can be seen as selfish to some degree or another, but it has to be that way, because nobody lives our life. We do what we have to do to live with ourselves, even when we help others, it's to help ourselves in the process.

The times you focused solely on yourself and your pain, was because you just couldn't ignore it any more for the sake of others, to put on a brave face for them.

When you think of your situation with your grandmother, where you said "screw it" you won't be here for the fallout, there are many who do similar things in life - they run away, take a trip, go and live in another country and never return to their people, they don't necessarily kill themselves. If you were truly showing the epitome of selfishness there, you wouldn't even have thought about her at all.

I think the only time a suicide is really selfish, is when the person has committed some kind of crime and then takes their own life because they can't deal with going to prison or whatever. But, even then one cannot judge that to be the sole reason either, these things all culminate in suicide.

Taking one's own life is a serious decision. I think it would go about much more than just proving some kind of point or spiting someone, which tend to be selfish motives.

I just can't see how the last thoughts of someone just before they do it can be "Hah, I'm going to deprive all of you of my presence!" I would have thought someone who thinks that way would stick around because they like playing games with people and I wouldn't see that person as very unhappy.

[Raindropvampire]

I will agree to disagree. I think it's the height of selfishness. It's focusing on your pain and ending it instead of how it will affect people around you. I completely understand why people do it. I just truly believe it's selfish and cowardly. And I also believe it isn't wrong. No one should be able to have you committed because you want to. The only reason I quit trying is spite. Well that and I believe in an afterlife so what's the point in trading one craptastic existence for another?

[Raindropvampire]

I will agree to disagree. I think it's the height of selfishness. It's focusing on your pain and ending it instead of how it will affect people around you. I completely understand why people do it. I just truly believe it's selfish and cowardly. And I also believe it isn't wrong. No one should be able to have you committed because you want to. The only reason I quit trying is spite. Well that and I believe in an afterlife so what's the point in trading one craptastic existence for another?

Sidenote: Personally the stupidest thing I've ever heard is suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I tried for the first time when I was 7. 31 years later nothing has ever gotten better. How is that temporary?

Sorry about that double post. I tried to edit and somehow screwed up.