Mad in america

little turtle, thank you! I may not be coming on Psych Central as much during the Lenten season, which is now exactly 6 weeks until Easter. I think 6 weeks is a good amount of time to put this MAP (Mental and Physical) treatment plan into practice. I will record everything, such as mood, amount of exercise, and meditation, over a 6 week period. I'll return in 6 weeks to report on what happened.

In the last month I have not seen an elevation in anxiety, but I have seen a substantial elevation in depression. It could be the lack of sunlight in winter, life stresses, the cold weather etc.

Do I think I can substantially improve or control depression with daily exercise and meditation? Not with these two alone. But sometimes it helps to emphasize and focus on one part of the holistic, and I already eat pretty well, don't smoke or drink etc.

turtle, I hope you find a way to come off the celexa if that is what you want to do. I am not totally certain why you want to come off it when it seems you are on a low dosage, and it has worked for you.

I am not taking an AD because it didn't work for me (I was allergic), and it seems I have somewhat of a treatment resistant depression. I am scared to death that if I continue on with major depressive episodes that ECT will be the next recommendation, and I just don't want to go there.

I will report back in six weeks as to how exercise/meditation went. As I said, I am a meditation instructor, and long time meditation practitioner, so I can set up a vigorous meditation program.

My heart goes out to everyone who is battling with depression and anxiety, as well as other things, and who find themselves with medications that are no longer working as well.

Huge lifestyle shifts are difficult to maintain by the ordinary individual not battling mental health issues. I hate to be dramatic, but sometimes the idea of incorporating and maintaining huge lifestyle changes feels like climbing Mount Everest. Although health providers will give lip service to a healthy lifestyle, that don't do much to support it, do they? It is easier for them to just write up yet another script.

Thanks, turtle, for turning me on to the Mad in America site. I find it very helpful and supportive.

". . . but sometimes the idea of incorporating and maintaining huge lifestyle changes feels like climbing Mount Everest."

How true!

Good luck with th MAP approach - wishing you wellness and peace!!

I am also wishing you wellness and peace. I know I didn't have answers or information for you, but it seems as if others have stepped forward. I do want to report back because a sense of accountability helps. I know that exercise and meditation are not new but doing them in a controlled way is for me. When you said you kept a record of when you took your medication that reminded me that progress is best seen by record keeping. (My mother was a nurse and seemed to record everything in a daily log book.) Thanks again. I will be back. Take care!

dear dechan and onward....and fuzzy...and ???---------we can focus on what is causing our different depressions.....we can look at cause....we can talk about prevention.....one of THE BIGGEST things we can do is change in our behaviors ...lifestyle changes....for me this is very very hard...most people here will fight this and deny reality until a crisis comes....but we can talk about how to be healthy in mind and body and spirit....we can just present the facts....at present there is a drugging of America going on for all kinds of pain and depression and chronic disease....we have a choice...it is not going to be a party....but our health may be better ...I hope

this is just my morning opinion....I am looking at my community...we are using chemicals and drugs to solve so many problems THAT CANT BE SOLVED BY CHEMICALS AND DRUGS..i am mad man in america

I am furious about the mental health system in America...not just mad..
people are getting screwed over left and right

is anyone else mad out there...

I guess I feel less angry than just "buyer beware." It's unrealistic to assume that any industry or proprietor of an industry is genuinely empowered to deliver altruistic solutions, and that certainly includes the psych and medical professions. Just because their products have the potential to be helpful, is no reason to assume that they always will be, that they will always be delivered effectively or responsibly. As an analogy, milk may be generally healthy for most people to drink or for certain people to drink, but even then you're a lot more likely not to get poisoned if you buy it from a store that consistently stores it at the right temperature, and which purchased it from a supplier which stores it at the right temperature, which gets it from a producer that doesn't use dangerous chemicals, etc. etc. It's not as though one can say "milk is great, no need for we consumers to review the processes behind it" and drink any old glass of it that one comes across. With all the potential for injury that inherently exists via delivery of medical and psych industries, I think it is imperative that consumers be empowered to educate themselves, and to be wholly and respectfully involved in the decision-making process.

I do wish I had never as blindly believed in an altruism inherent to the industry, that I hadn't walked in with my heart on my sleeve, my critical thinking disabled, trusting psych professionals to simply "know better" (as they seemed so sure that they did). Rarely if ever have I found their insights about me to be so great as to be worth overruling my own, but before I realized this to be the case I suffered a lot of injury by way of errant guidance and pharmacology. (I also think that the idea that telling a psych patient about their diagnostic profile is somehow a blanketly injurious process is an awfully convenient cloak of informational solitude for industry professionals to be able to hide behind. Imagine if your auto mechanic told you not to worry what was wrong with your car, that he knew how to take care of it, and by the way here's the bill...)

I try to continue sharing the benefit of my hard-earned experiences and perspective with others, as I heartily wish that I'd had broader knowledge and a significantly less trusting outlook before I was hurt even while in my most vulnerable state. Maybe then I might actually have had a chance at acquiring help that was specific to my real needs, instead of what was most convenient and profitable for my providers to deliver.

I guess I'm a little mad. In my defense, it's the emotion I have the most trouble accessing. I should be quite a bit madder.

I think I like gut symmetries....from the little turtle

Perhaps the comparison to buying milk is the result of psych drugs being peddled on television along with bathroom cleanser and shampoo. I don't know. I haven't had cable television for years so I never saw the commercials for psych drugs.

I had been on cetalopram 5 days, had horrendous side effects, and weaned myself off in less than two weeks.

1) Two "good" friends on antidepressants played doctor and bombarded me with the message that I "needed" the drugs. I have since found out that their repeated attempts to get off their antidepressants have failed. 2) My doctor said "trust me."

I trust that the grocery stores where I shop are following guidelines required to keep my food safe, and I trusted that my doctor embraced my health and well-being as top priority.

What I didn't consider was that the Pharma industry is a mega-global industry, with unlimited dollars to reward doctors for dispensing drugs, and money for slick advertising that uses psychological tactics.

There is an old rule to never go to the supermarket hungry. Why? Because when you are hungry everything looks good.

We go to our health care providers hungry for relief. To ask that we think critically when we are in a state of intense mental pain is a tall order.

Of course we don't completely lose our wits, but we trust that a physician who took the Hippocratic Oath to "do no harm" is going to have our well-being as a top priority.

That this isn't so is a shocking eye-opener. The number of people on antidepressants rises. This epidemic needs to be addressed. Even our environment is starting to show the ill effects of these chemicals being flushed out into its waterways.

Why did two people I considered friends insist I needed antidepressants? It was only after I went off the psych drug their tuned changed. They were envious because I had not become hooked. They both had tried numerous times to go off their psych drugs in the past 20 years and found it impossible. The withdrawal symptom I feared the most was "brain zaps." One friend said that if she is a few hours late in taking her antidepressant she experiences brain zaps. Until I read the side effects list and watched youtube videos I had never even heard of brain zaps! My doctor certainly did not mention them. When I said I was concerned in general about withdrawal problems she said, "Trust me." What the hell did she mean? I'll never know.

Everyone I trusted let me down. Looking back, I simply wanted to trust that others knew what was best for me. That was my error.

Some people get relief from the drugs and are willing to put up with the side effects. When I told my doctor I wanted off the drug and that I read that people on cetalopram reported large weight gain in a short period of time with danger of developing diabetes, she said, "Oh, not everyone gains weight. But almost everyone complains of dulled emotions, a flat affect, emotional numbness." Hmmm, okay, doc. Funny you didn't mention any of those things before pushing a prescription into my hand and hustling me out of your office after our 10 to 15 minute session.

Another person on this thread suggested whipping out your smartphone right there in the doctor's office to pull up the side effects. I don't have a smartphone. Anyway, the doctor is sitting right in front of a computer screen and if she wanted to discuss side effects she could have easily pulled up a list on her screen. I daresay any doctor would be pretty offended if you just whipped out your smartphone. Anyway, I just can't picture that scenerio at all... When I go everything is very rush rush.

I came across several youtube videos where people say outright, "Don't look at the side effects lists of your antidepressant, ever. It will only scare you."

Indeed. It will.

Ha! I suppose my comparison to the buying of milk had mostly to do with the preponderance of care shown by so many people along the way that goes into making sure no one need drink something that will make them sick, representing what I think is more care than often goes into the dispensing of psychiatric drugs once FDA approval is received and they're off to the races! My last pdoc I'd selected solely on the basis that I hoped a man of his age (I don't know exactly but over 70) would not kneejerk so easily towards pharmaceutical solutions, although I was not completely opposed to them as a possibility at the time. I just wanted someone who would lean towards more holistic solutions, and I incorrectly assumed that a man of that age would know better that throwing drugs at problems doesn't need to be one's first line of defense. But, he strongly advocated for me to take an antidepressant (and an SNRI at that.. ugh..), and prescribed them on my very first visit, despite my already being on a complicated combination of migraine medication including anti-seizures. Adding the SNRI deeply impacted the psychological and physiological load for me, and I believe was ultimately responsible for turning what might only have been a one-year major depressive episode into the 5 year episode it ended up being, especially with him pushing for me to keep taking them, "give them a chance", even when months and months on them were only causing me worse anguish and hellatious physical distress. (To be honest, lost time counted in years is the closest to death I've ever felt. I was in a psychological near-coma from which I am still brushing away cobwebs.)

I love how you brought up the adage "never go to the supermarket hungry", Dechan.. so completely and sadly apt. I feel as though throwing myself into the psychiatric system when I was at my most vulnerable is approximately the worst decision I have ever made in my life.. which is irony of tragic proportions, because I would never have sought out therapy while spiritually well.

I'm quite worried for your friend.. I got brain zaps when I finally took myself off the SNRI (fairly unceremoniously .. never wanted to touch the stuff again and to hell with the titration), but to be so dependent that I got zaps just for taking an AD a couple of hours late would drive me completely batty. I am supportive of my friends who take them though, whom I generally tell "I'm so glad it works for you", but feel almost apologetic when sharing any part of my own experience with them. Like being a sober person talking to someone who drinks regularly, you don't want to go on about how great sobriety is, when they're hooked and maybe don't even consciously think of themselves that way..

Believe me, I wish they worked for me just as great as the doc-tors are so fond of saying they will. I'd double my dosage and campaign for it in the streets.

Sharing your story is a great service, and I hope it affords you a bit of comfort. It has only been six months since I am free of any psych medication, and sometimes I wobble, because obviously my depression has not yet "gone away." But from your story I get the message "hang in there." I have read accounts where people suspect drugs prolonged and intensified their depression, and your story bears this out.

I have anxiety and depression combined, so it is tricky. I always feel the depression is something that needs to be soothed. When I took the antidepressant I felt suicidal in like three days! I remember sitting outside a coffee shop and feeling like I just wanted to go throw myself in front of traffic and that's when I thought, "Something isn't right. This drug is making me feel insane." It seemed to hype up the depression. Since coming on Psych Central I have learned that some researchers believe that antidepressants can cause bi-polar! That's how I felt on the drug, exactly.

I had heard of and my doctor told me all those things about "wait and see" and "it's too early to tell" and "you might need something else" -- but it absolutely did not feel right at that moment. It seemed counter-intuitive to be taking something that made me feel worse. My logic would not wrap around it.

When I went looking for answers I found Psych Central, and Psych Central has helped me tremendously. Everyone's story is different, but a common theme is helping us become stronger consumers of everything.

Your story about thinking an older doctor would be more interested in holistic methods was interesting. Once I went off the psych meds and told my doctor I was going to follow a holistic path she got right on board, citing the positive outcomes of treating depression with exercise. When I told a relative who has a Ph.d. in Psychology, he scoffed. He told me to find a "proper doctor" - a psychiatrist, to give me the right psych drugs. Need I add that this relative is overweight, and out-of-shape? On the other hand my primary doctor is skinny to the point of looking anorexic! Finding one's way to the right solutions for mental health is like walking through a mine field. I am learning to step carefully.

About my friend with the brain zaps. We were only casual friends and although she felt entitled to tell me what I should do, I wouldn't do the same with her. She drinks on her antidepressant. That kind of shocked me. I didn't even know people did that. She also smokes. I quit smoking and it has created a lot of extra anxiety for me. (Now it has been a year but I think it may take two years before smoking related anxiety is reduced by increased coping skills.) This friend is a chronic relapser. Her whole combination of taking heavy doses of antidepressants, smoking, and drinking creates a profile that makes it difficult to believe she should be advising anyone else, right? Someone here on Psych Central suggested she might have more problems then I need to be exposed to at this time. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't keep taking a drug that gave me brain zaps. She insists she needs the drug. She has no intention of going off the drug. She continues to smoke although she has been diagnosed with with the early stages of COPD. She isn't stupid. I hesitate to say this but the fact is she is a retired nurse who recently married a doctor!!! Some people just don't want to face reality. I am not one of them.

Vonmoxie, I am sorry for all you went through. So many twists and turns that caused you more pain. That is the saddest part of all. Anyone who has had mental illness knows that more pain is almost like punishment. If only doctors realized this.

It is almost as if they (the doctors -- little turtle respectfully excluded) don't appreciate the level of pain involved in depression and anxiety. I am convinced that its complexity warrants a complex solution. My holistic plan -- the one I share in the "About Me" section of my profile page...gets longer and longer. It looks a bit ridiculous! I try to do as much as possible on the list because despite a healthy lifestyle of eating and sleeping correctly, taking vitamins and supplements etc., I am still fighting depression. I think I have a better handle now on the anxiety. The anxiety responds well to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and even to some extent, DBT. However, it seems like when one gets better the other gets worse.

I hope to God my situation is as you said...maybe I have a bad depression that I will naturally subside within a year to 18 months. I am trying to track everything so that I can see progress.

Stories like yours carry me forward. Thank you.

DECHAN AND MOXIE ARE INSPIRING ME....I will tell you now that the patient/client is far down the list of importance when it comes to pharm/doctors/lawyers/insurance/etc..I am mad about this....I have seen this with my own eyes as doctor and patient...but there are still some good people out there...CHOOSE WISELY

I just got my new refill of citalopram...I read the medication guide that the pharmacy gave me...the medication guide has been approved by the FDA july 2014...

what was the #1 most important information I should know about----------------citalopram may cause SUICIDAL THOUGHTS OR ACTIONS...should I just think that is a lot of misinformation......it has not happened to me yet but I need to protect my fellow sufferers....I think that is the black box warning

is there anyone on this forum that started citalopram recently...and has SUICIDAL THOUGHTS OR ACTIONS...I am mad about this information not getting out to persons that need an anti-depressant but have serious side effects like getting more agitated...this is a REAL issue...

All of the medications I have used at first increased depression, suicidal thoughts or made me agitated or otherwise produced negative mood effects. After approx. a week or two these subsided and my mood improved. And even sometimes upon increasing the dosage I experienced these type of effects before the medication did what the psychiatrist hoped it would do. My understanding is that this is pretty typical.

the best way to find out the side effects is to google the med

that is good to know....were you scared

No I was not afraid. I am assuming you are asking mostly about the first time I took a medication. I was already severely depressed and had been depressed for 10 years. Sure my depressed mood worsened from very bad to very, very bad lol. Besides, in my case I checked in with my psychiatrist and he told me that it was not uncommon and he reassured me that my mood should improve after about 3 or 4 weeks. And it did after 3 weeks to the day I went from crawling to the kitchen at about 11am to ripping off the bed sheets when I woke up at 7am.

Now, why did he not warn me before about all the possible side effects before I started the medication? That is simple. First, there is something called nocibo. And secondly by emphasizing the negative he would have run the risk of having me further ruminate and delay getting medical attention I desperately needed. Anyhow, he did warn that there are side effects, as there is with almost every medication, but he did it in a way that informed me and did not alarm me.

lonely do you believe that anyone has killed themselves due to taking an anti-depressant...

As I related in my long-winded monologue here on this thread...I was on citalopram for three days and started to have suicidal thoughts. At 4 days I started to wean myself off of it and was off it completely by 10 days. The pharmacist showed me a paper that said teenagers sometimes had these symptoms. He explicitly said to me, "This does not apply to adults." Duh, so why was he showing me the paper? He did not give me a list of side effects, nor warn me of any. Nor did my doctor, who said, "Trust me. Don't worry. Antidepressants are not like they used to be." This was in response to my telling her I had a bad reaction 20 years ago to an antidepressants, and did not want to be put on an AD. I had a very bad reaction this time around to cetalopram and now my doctor noted in my medical records that I am "allergic" to cetalopram. She should have added, "Patient refuses ALL antidepressants."

little turtle, I am interested in discussions on how people are improving their situation with lifestyle changes, and I am encouraged and inspired by such posters here on PC as mrsjoggers. Her posts are always inspiring and encouraging. She takes medication but is also exquisitely aware of the far-reaching benefits of diet and exercise. Check out some of mrsjoggers' posts! They are honest, and inspiring.

Go on youtube and you will find tons of stories about families who suspect their loved ones committed suicide after taking an antidepressant.

My reaction to cetalopram after only 3 days was so severe there was no way I was going to "wait and see" for 3 more days, 3 more weeks, or 3 more months. Maybe if there was an absolute guarantee that the drug would take affect, maybe. But there is no guarantee. It is a "shotgun" approach of just shooting out a bunch of different AD's and hoping one will work. My doctor did not give me a benzo prescription when I called her almost hysterical, which is recommended for AD induced agitation, I don't know. I wasn't going to put up with symptoms of suicidal ideation while not even knowing if they drug was going to be helpful. People here on Psych Central recite all of this on and on, as if we have not heard it before. The whole thing about "wait and see" etc. This really does not address the fact that many medications stop working (what used to be known as the Prozac poop-out) and need to be switched, or dosage played with. For some of this, this is not medicine but akin to a voodoo witch doctor playing around with our mental health...so much smoke and mirrors.

There is something to be said about self-management when possible. If one antidepressant is making things worse I see absolutely no reason to wait and see or try another drug in the same family. That just strikes me as bad medicine.

dechan---I am trying to get something going on the prevent depression
thread.....it is prediabetes....because it can be reversed with lifestyle changes as you have suggested...we may be able to prevent diabetes and depression and dementia...the three big Ds...

I am sorry, I have never heard of nocibo, what is that? You don't mean placebo, do you? If so, placebo effect relates to clinical trials. This has nothing to do with side effects when taking a medication. In truth, being on Psych Central is the first time I have ever heard arguments pro and con regarding being properly informed about side effects. Every single medication I have ever taken has come with an instruction sheet for usage, and side effects. The exception is this last year when I picked up my cetalopram. I am very suspicious that the side-effects paper was not included only in this case.

Also, tearing off bed sheets at 7 a.m. would alarm me, in my case! It sounds a bit manic, but that would be me. If a drug did that to me I would be worried.

It worked for you, and I guess that is all that mattered. Still, I do wonder if you meant placebo, because in this case I just think the doctor would be crazy to say that.

Great! So is that the title of the thread? Prevent Depression? Because I have been losing weight to prevent prediabetes. Well, I think I was edging towards that (prediabetes) and my health care provider had an online program for me to follow, which included diet. But then I read that cetalopram often caused patients to gain a ton of weight. I called my doctor and told her I could not afford to gain a "ton of weight" and that it would increase my depression as well as anxiety about diabetes, which runs in my family. In this case the side effect of "weight gain" makes the drug kind of dangerous for those edging towards prediabetes, right? The doctor said not everyone experiences weight gain but if you go online to community forums the number of people reporting weight gain on cetalopram is staggering. Besides feeling suicidal on cetalopram, I went off it because I did not want to put on 50 pounds in 3 months, as some people report happened to them.