[DisorganisedMind]

I'll put *trigger* because I'm not confident that I'll use the approved PC language and because the actual thought itself is nasty. In expressing it in the language I use against myself in my thoughts then there is the possibility I offend other people who suffer from various conditions I may mention below. If so, I'm sorry and I'm probably ignorant on a lot of things, but it's just how I feel.

I had to take some photos there. I've never taken photos of myself in my life. I run when I see a camera and only ever appear in a photo if there is no way whatsoever to avoid it. I've been destroying them since primary school. My long suffering family are used to my peculiarities and how seriously I take them so have evolved not to pull out cameras and stuff when I'm around. There are two photos of me in existence :- one from when I was 11 and the other 4. Both occasions were school photos (one of those unavoidable ones). I hate both and would happily destroy both if it was in my power (damn you facebook!) but even the hardest-hearted person would see in the 4 year old at least a cute kid clinging onto his happy mum on the first day of school. I see the weakness and hate it. I pity the mother.

I don't see a therapist as such. I can't afford it. I did a 6 session course of CBT about 7 years ago I'm guessing when unemployed as I was on some sort of sickness benefit which offered it but - although I liked the therapist - I didn't address anything like that because I'm a grown man and the whole issue just makes me feel very juvenile and it's all deep-down childhood stuff. I found the whole CBT process very challenging and painful. I couldn't differentiate between thoughts and feelings. I don't really feel things as they happen...normally. I don't process things that way. My feelings are slow. I can't let go of things. I obsess. I hold onto thoughts and feelings. I don't feel fully conscious in things as they happen. I just found it all very hard. We worked on the main issue at the time which was anxiety and didn't touch underneath it into reasons but I did learn some techniques and it did actually help in one aspect. I've got a lot of stuff going on. I realise to some people that will sound needy and a bit precious but it's the reality of things.

If I saw a therapist I would be pegged as BDD on that aspect (I'd guess) but the honest truth is that I'm just kind of ugly. It bothers me that the boy was superficial enough to care but I can forgive him. It bothers me more that I still have these juvenile feelings but it's not even a superficial thing really. I mean it was as a teenager. I didn't like being teased or singled out and resented anyone doing that. To me they were just picking on obvious faults because they were cruel and I was inferior. To them I would be the little up-himself kid who couldn't take getting teased like everyone else could because he thought he was better. What really annoys me is that I still have the same reactive behaviour as an adult. It's pure ingrained instinct.--- Don't look in mirrors. Avoid eye contact. Exit if cameras come out. If in group photos hide at the back.--- But I long ago gave up any inkling of partner, relationship, kids, sex, happy happy, joy joy so it really makes no difference at all. And I couldn't even do all that anyway - the social partner, the able husband, the good father, and all the various roles. I wouldn't even be confident my equipment still worked after a decade plus of anti-depressants and self-medicating with weed. Can't remember the last time I was even turned on. I can find women attractive but it's in a sort of wistful and bitter way. So what I'm saying is that I'm not on any market and I don't get attracted to supermodels - rather (generally) brunettes with liberal sensibilities or (historically) anyone who seems nice enough as a person and shows any interest in me - so I don't feel superficial, but that instinctive reactive horror and hatred of superficial self remains just the same.

Anyway....what this long rambling nonsense is getting to is a really nasty thought I had doing those photos tonight which took me back to being about 16 or 17 really vividly.

I used to think that I must be (pejorative words warning) handicapped, retarded, subhuman, malformed, etc..... and no one would admit it to me. The whole world knew except me. I'd imagine everyone looking at me like some subhuman joke and laughing at the little unfortunate's vain attempts to be like them. I would be exasperated when someone like my gran would make unsubtle comments about how I must be popular with the girls and was too modest to admit it. I was never sure whether she was genuinely blinded by love or just trying to boost my confidence. I often wanted to snap at her like - "why are you doing this charade? look at me. they hate me". I didn't, but I remember the knot in my stomach and how much it hurt when I used to have to go through the whole charade. "No. Honestly gran. I would tell you. Hahaha. No. Honestly. Okay, have it your way." And again, it's funny because it wasn't like I ever wanted a girlfriend anyway at that age. I found the odd one attractive but the idea of talking to one terrified me. The only few that got near me would be in situations like a party where we'd be drunk and it would be a desperate move on their part. They'd also be pretty liberal in their selectiveness of men. I've had a few women throw themselves at me but it's just that - it's "any man will do" and "VODKA VODKA VODKA" and occasionally someone so forward that I turn into a shy 8 year old (I'm not far past that now). One I'm pretty sure was an absolute lunatic or on some insanely strong drugs. And all that's slowing down a bit anyway (I'd wager stopped) as I get older and spend more time inside this room. So I don't feel that sexually driven or someone who values physical attributes in the same way as I can recognise it in other men. (I've seen men who literally are attracted to every 2nd adult woman they see. That was never me. "She probably won't like me anyway. But she does look so pretty when she turns like that. And she is so intelligent and funny." That was more like me. I grew up with two sisters and the bond between me and my Dad's always been a bit ****ed up due to circumstances. I'm pretty much a male brain (visual stimulus, logic oriented, focus on single disciplines), female heart, and male (ish....not the finest example) body.

Damn, but do I feel lonely. Desperately. And I feel pretty pointless and self-hating. It's such a hopeless state of affairs.

But.....essay aside.....has anyone else ever felt as though there must be something really obvious wrong with them that everyone can see except them and no-one will admit? I got such a sense of deja vu when I remembered that. I used to cry so hard as a boy about that wondering why my family wouldn't just tell me what it was that was wrong with me. I was probably insane which would make me still insane I guess.

And do you think that the process of taking childhood comments and incidents and holding on to them means a person is destined to remain a child emotionally?

Please comment as I'd appreciate it.

[dexter]

Hi DM, I can relate to a lot of what you said. While I don't feel like the world knows what is wrong with me (in my case I think it is the opposite... I think I know, and that I hide it so well that they can only see the superficial aspects of my mess of a life.

But I hold on to things and whether I'm in the grip of depression or doing well I will often flash to some little embarrassing or bad thing that happened 45 years ago and it will cause me a great pain in my gut. I'm extremely introverted so I am alone. I've never even had someone throw themself at me in a state of drunkenness so that confirms that while I know I am loveable as a friend, I am unloveable as anything else, I'm just, to everyone, a 100% non-sexual side character to talk to but never part of the main storyline.

And because of the above I also feel like I am stunted emotionally and immature. I've been working on this for the past ten years and I think I'm doing better but without any opportunity to experience it I have no idea if I'm still a child in my head, emotionally, socially. My actions when I get angry or jealous confirm that, yes, I am still immature.

[avlady]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder, maybe some people would say you were at least ok looks wise. for me i never judge by looks anyway. being like a child sometimes is fun if you're with old friends too. a chance to be immature all over again. i don't think this means you're destined to be a child emotionally either.

[Fizzyo]

I always felt different from the other kids. They seemed to see me as a freak and didn't take kindly to my existence.

At least part of me now knows it's not bad to be different and it gives me ways of thinking which complement others when problem solving.

I'm sorry you feel yourself to be ugly. That probably is untrue, I haven't seen you but I don't know any really ugly people.

A friend of mine believes that when a child suffers trauma, they don't develop emotionally past that age. I don't know. Maybe a part of you stays that age. I find certain triggers leave me feeling like a bewildered young child, but also I have matured in many ways too. I think we are in touch with our emotional selves as different ages, depending on the context.

Does that make any sense? It's not anything you would see in a text book, but it's what seems to happen to me.

Best wishes

[Fuzzybear]

[DisorganisedMind]

Originally Posted by Fizzyo

I always felt different from the other kids. They seemed to see me as a freak and didn't take kindly to my existence.

At least part of me now knows it's not bad to be different and it gives me ways of thinking which complement others when problem solving.

I'm sorry you feel yourself to be ugly. That probably is untrue, I haven't seen you but I don't know any really ugly people.

A friend of mine believes that when a child suffers trauma, they don't develop emotionally past that age. I don't know. Maybe a part of you stays that age. I find certain triggers leave me feeling like a bewildered young child, but also I have matured in many ways too. I think we are in touch with our emotional selves as different ages, depending on the context.

Does that make any sense? It's not anything you would see in a text book, but it's what seems to happen to me.

Best wishes

Yes maybe. I just resent the influence things like that have over me because I don't judge other people in the same way. I feel like other people's actions have made me like this. It makes me feel like a child - emotionally stunted and looked down upon - and I should have matured beyond that by now. I don't like it in me because I hate vanity but I'd love to just feel okay and not observed. Just to fit in. I barely feel human.

[annoyedgrunt84]

I often feel like people are anxious for me to leave after a brief conversation so that the can shake their heads and say out loud what a fearing train wreck I am.

Originally Posted by DisorganisedMind

I used to think that I must be (pejorative words warning) handicapped, retarded, subhuman, malformed, etc..... and no one would admit it to me. The whole world knew except me. I'd imagine everyone looking at me like some subhuman joke and laughing at the little unfortunate's vain attempts to be like them. I would be exasperated when someone like my gran would make unsubtle comments about how I must be popular with the girls and was too modest to admit it. I was never sure whether she was genuinely blinded by love or just trying to boost my confidence. I often wanted to snap at her like - "why are you doing this charade? look at me. they hate me". I didn't, but I remember the knot in my stomach and how much it hurt when I used to have to go through the whole charade. "No. Honestly gran. I would tell you. Hahaha. No. Honestly. Okay, have it your way."

Someone, at some point, family member or not, must have destroyed your self-esteem.

Was your father or any other family member (relentlessly) nasty to you when you was a kid, and put you down at every opportunity?

I'm asking that because I can relate to the above quote, and in my case the perpetrator was my abusive father.

I still have self-esteem issues, but nowhere near like I had up until my mid 30's. Without going into much detail, I can say I was completely destroyed inside. Once I managed to identify who caused the damage, I was then able to start healing myself.

Reverting the damage done to your mind is a long and painful process, and basically consists in you "rewiring your brains"; you need to know and accept that you're not the failure that some people made you believe you are.

I feel as if I'm half-way there, but I often have relapses in my journey away from self-deprecating thoughts.

Possible trigger:

Today, for instance, is one of those days when negative thoughts are taking turns to beat my mind up. All I can think of is how much of an unworthy and inconvenient smear on the floor I am to everyone around me.

But I know that it is not true (and it's hard for me to even write that it is not true), and I know I have to fight those thoughts off. It's such an oppression, it feels like there's something heavy on top of me, like a bear mauling me and digging into my flesh. And that's why I have to fight it.

[DisorganisedMind]

My self-esteem is zero and has been for as long as I remember. I don't know why. I can't think of any one thing or person to blame it on (even the process of that makes me feel uncomfortable), so I either think that I'm twisted in some way to gravitate towards extreme negativity and some sort of emotional masochism, or I've always been weaker than other people. Neither are great thoughts. Finding a positive thought for me is rare. I'm pessimistic to the point of defeatist, although not about everything - just myself. I've probably just spent too much time alone in my own thoughts. Maybe it isn't healthy? And I register on quite a few spectrums really. Depression is my diagnosis (major/general/whatever...I don't know) and anxiety came into that some 8-9 years ago but I've got all sorts of pretty extreme thoughts that tick a few boxes from various psychiatrists and tests.....social anxiety, childhood ocd, high-functioning aspergers....others I've never addressed that exist too.....body dysmorphia perhaps, relationship to food quite possibly, schizoid - yep have elements of that too, paranoia - have had, bipolar - probably not technically but I do get mad periods where the depression lifts and I'm like someone bipolar. I become ridiculously reckless and quite dangerous to myself through sheer misadventure and not caring about my safety. At the same time I still have the other usual nasty thoughts so it's like some depressed guy getting told he has a month to live who then goes and causes mayhem in his life because he feels time running out. I get to feeling that way. Not sure if it's because those times of action are rare amidst the normal inertia and my brain craves change, or if it's because I'm seeing my life opportunities close as I get older, but I've felt a bit wild recently at times - as though I was 19 again. Not that my life ever really gets that wild but the person underneath is an absolute extremist, reckless, and unstable nut at times.

I don't know but, you are right, I'm a bit of a mess really. If I try to step outside of it and look at it then I don't see solutions, just the scale and variety of it all and how pervasive it is from the inside, but from outside I just feel exasperated too and it makes me dislike myself. Again, it's negative thoughts that come out. Any way I turn my thoughts I get more negative thoughts and it all just leads down.

If I had any social skills I would recommend I go out, have a few drinks, and meet some people and live life, but the very thought makes me recoil - not at them but at me - how I would feel, how I would seem, how lonely I would feel on the outside really but trying to be close to people. It's nasty. I've got myself in such a position of weakness.

[DisorganisedMind]

Thinking about starting drinking alone regularly just to alleviate the boredom! Honestly.

When I went into therapy one of the first things the therapist asked me was had anything significant happened when I was the age my son was at that time, apparently it's quite common for people to 'associate' with their own trauma in that way. If that makes sense.

Most of the time I don't think backwards, but when I'm depressed my self esteem plummets and I'm momentarily pulled back to the kid who was bullied, not many friends, teacher came onto inappropriately. I tend to agree with Fizzyo, we do develop but there's a bit of us which can revisit that place, we can definitely move on though.

DisorganisedMind, things can be overwhelming sometimes but if you take things one step at a time, very slowly, small steady gains can be made bit by bit.

[OneInBillions]

Wow. I didn't really realize it until I finished reading your post, in tears. Yeah, this is exactly how I've felt, really often. I guess in my case it might really be true because I was diagnosed with a possible autism spectrum disorder. But I've always wondered, so bitterly, what was so wrong with me that people never wanted to be my friend, let alone anything like a girlfriend. There was something about me that was clear as day to everyone else but I could never see it.

My own parents are STILL so confident that I'll find the "right girl" and get married and I just want to scream at them in rage for their stupidity because I'm 31-year-old kissless virgin for ****'s sake! What woman is going to want a broken piece of **** like me?!

It truly is such a hopeless state of affairs. Nobody cares unless you're attractive or dying.

[DisorganisedMind]

Originally Posted by OneInBillions

Wow. I didn't really realize it until I finished reading your post, in tears. Yeah, this is exactly how I've felt, really often. I guess in my case it might really be true because I was diagnosed with a possible autism spectrum disorder. But I've always wondered, so bitterly, what was so wrong with me that people never wanted to be my friend, let alone anything like a girlfriend. There was something about me that was clear as day to everyone else but I could never see it.

That's it exactly. I had thoughts like that from...I'd guess about age 10 (and even before then I felt very different) all the way up to probably my 20s. To be honest I still identify strongly with it all. I can remember the confusion and bitterness of "why would the world not tell me, especially my family". I imagined the scene at the hospital - "Well Mrs XXXXX, it's the worst case we've ever seen. He can't ever know. We'll just pretend it isn't there in him". It's obviously not a rational thought but the feeling exists, just the same. Otherness - and not of a superior type but something to be pitied, demeaned, mocked....and deserving of it all....so deserving that not even an explanation was owed. I guess as far as self-esteem goes then that's a bad mental landscape to inhabit.

It's all so bloody narcissistic but it's self-defeating rather than self-aggrandising....it's still "self" though. Self self self self self self self self self self self self self self self self......hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate....that's how my brain goes all the time. It's against the self-preservation instinct that should be in people to be so obviously self-defeating. Maybe I worked out at a young age that I got more attention if I made myself vulnerable or something like that, and now it's hard-wired into my brain to extract maximum pain and angst from every situation? For whatever reason, I've adopted a lot of feelings that do not serve me, and I know that, but I still find it impossible to put them down because they are so central to me and early in my development. I don't even remember 99% of being under 14. I've got a few early memories in life but childhood as a whole is in fog. I can't really blame anyone else though for anything based on what I remember. My parents, sisters, extended family are good people - all work, form families, never been in jail, pay their taxes, have social lives, raise children - and they've put up with my nonsense over the years (even at the times when I wished they would cut me loose and let me find my natural place in life - as I felt it).

Sigh.....I don't know. I find the process of trying to find the first fault and underlying reasons for feelings really difficult to do. I have extreme feelings about myself that I don't really understand but I'm actually a pretty logical and rational person (honest). The feelings still persist though.

Originally Posted by OneInBillions

My own parents are STILL so confident that I'll find the "right girl" and get married and I just want to scream at them in rage for their stupidity because I'm 31-year-old kissless virgin for ****'s sake! What woman is going to want a broken piece of **** like me?!

It truly is such a hopeless state of affairs. Nobody cares unless you're attractive or dying.

My memories of women making a move on me are really amusing really. Some are pretty sad, and they all show how appalling my self-esteem has always been (because 90% of them were absolute strangers to me), but some of them are really funny to remember. How awkwardly I would reject things, how stunned I'd be, how desperate or drunk they might be.....the whole gamut of possibilities. What a collection of lunatics they must have been!

Most of them were in my early 20s when I was going out. They weren't good times for me though at all. In fact I think, barring one who I knew in another way anyway, that I rebuffed every single one simply because I hated myself, knew I was in emotional turmoil, and had got used to thinking of myself as someone who had no interest in connecting with anyone in any way, and especially not just for sex, or I would just be too awkward and inexperienced to handle the attention. Not that there were that many but if you are out drinking with friends enough times and the music stops and everyone piles out then you do end up getting the odd person who has just decided to pull any man possible. I don't regret avoiding all that. I never really felt that attracted to the idea. Maybe that's love-shyness or something? I never had a problem with the idea of the girl next door, and friendship building up into relationship and all that (and it's a pity that wasn't how it went), but the pace of clubs and drunken pick-ups always catches me out. My feelings are too slow to react.

I do regret some other times though when someone I actually liked would show interest in me and I would be too pessimistic to allow myself to try. I would just shut them out through awkwardness or instinct. People have assumed I'm gay at times. My parents even hit me with that and I wasn't a kid. I think I was in my late 20s.

Drunk parents, straight off the bat as I come in on a weekend night - "You're obviously gay."
Me - "I'm not."
Them - "You know...it's okay to be gay."
Me - "I'm not gay."
Then the patronising way they'd say my name as if to say "lets be honest for a minute."
Them - "You've never got a girlfriend. You don't show any interest in them. You've never brought a girl to meet us."
Me - "How many boyfriends have I brought home? How does this make me gay?"
Them - "It's okay to be gay."
Me - "You're drunk. I'm not gay."

Bloody cheek of it! "It's okay to be gay...". It's not okay to automatically assume your son's a liar when you ask him personal questions and he sincerely responds though! That's rude. I'm 5 times as liberal as them. I know it's okay to be gay. It was always okay with me. That doesn't mean I am gay. They actually thought I might be some self-hating gay rather than something else (like just a self-hating straight man). I can see how it would happen though. They'd look at the problem, think about reasons why that might be, and then latch onto one that seemed to make sense. God knows what they think I am now. They married at 17 and 19 so my life must be very odd to them. I don't think the subject was ever pursued after that. They've still never met a girlfriend. Saying that, there's only been one since that they might have and I was always happy keeping her separate.

They've probably assumed I'm into kids or animals now! People are so funny sometimes.

[dexter]

Sorry OneIn... I can empathize... I am also an older kissless virgin... Gay and introverted. And how old and not feeling like trying is worth the heartache anymore. People keep pointing out others who found love late in life. None of them went their whole lives without even a "test run" even if that didn't work out... And none of them were so ill of physical, mental, and emotional problems that they didn't even want to try any more.

Wish I had something positive to add.

[OneInBillions]

I've never even had a girl make a move on me, to my knowledge. Or a guy for that matter, though I'm not homosexual myself. All of the (few, maybe 4-5) dates I've been on were blind, and total failures. There's just something about me that's abhorrent to humanity and nobody will tell me what it is.

Incidentally I don't remember much of my childhood either -- everything before about 12-13 is really foggy. I remember a few standout moments but that's it. All the time I get my mom asking, "Do you remember when...?" and I'm like no... seriously, no, I don't remember that. I'm thinking maybe depression has affected my long-term memory, I dunno.

But you're right, it is all about the self isn't it? Maybe I'm just really self-centered and never realized it? I don't know.