[Humpty Dumpty]

I have said on here a few times that I can't get medication for my depression because I don't trust doctors. Inevitably someone still tries to convince me to just "trust them" or something to that effect and it really pisses me off. Here is why I don't trust doctors and I can't ever go back to one again.

Possible trigger:

Back in February of 2015 I had a breakdown. I was crying uncontrollably for no reason at all & I have lost big chunks of time from the day I went to the mental hospital. As the day went on I devloped a tremor in my right hand that I still have to this day. One of the things I do remember from that is Everytime they would ask me about my suicide plans & how bad it was I would send my wife out of the room. We made it very clear I did not want her to know about my plans nor how close I was to going through with it, & she didn't want to k ow any of that either. She knew I was in bad shape mentally and emotionally and she knew I was considering suicide. She had her own idea of how close I was & knew to take it seriously. So it was made very clear that she was not to know.

Later on during the intake process I was having to fill out an information release consent form. I left it blank because I didn't want any of this being released to anyone. I was told that I had to put down my insurance company and my wife. As previously stated I literally was not in my right mind. So I did that. During all of my counseling sessions both individual & with my wife I made it absolutely clear I didn't want my wife to know specifics.

While I was in the hospital I was diagnosed with dysthymia. The doctor kept saying he was going to have information on it faxed over from his office, but never did. When I would ask him how to spell it so I could research it when I get out he would just tell me he would have the information sent over. Seeing as how I never got the information or how to spell it this has led me to believe that he didn't want me having too much knowledge of my own condition. This was red flag #1 for me. Which truly the information release form should have been a red flag but I wasn't thinking clearly then. He also kept wanting me to goto classes on trauma. I didn't matter how often I told him I didn't have any traumaticevent in my life. (I guess the more classes I went to the more he got paid.)

After a week in the hospital I was released to IOP (intensive outpatient program). At one point my doctor was really pushing hard for me to come see him at his office. He told me he wasn't taking new patients but he was really interested in my case. red flag #2 he is only wanting to use me as a case study. It was at that point I declined. Later on I was dealing with one of his nurses and she wanted me to fill out some paper putting people's names & numbers down that I would contact if I ever felt suicidal. I put down my wife's name & number along with my only friend's name. I didn't know his number by heart it was just programed into my phone which I did not have with me. She kept pushing me for his number and for a 3rd person. I told there wasn't a 3rd person. She said "I'll just put down the crisis hotline then." I told her I would never call them, but that didn't matter because I had to have 3. She disappears for a while then comes back. I finish out the day and go home.

Once I'm home I get a call from my wife. Turns out that nurse called my wide & told her everything. Even after my wife said she didn't want to know. Don't tell me it was because she thought I was a danger to myself, because if I were still a suicide risk at the time I would not have been released to IOP. I. Was. Livid! red flag #3 I was about to drive back upto there and to be honest I wasn't sure what I was going to do, but it probably would have landed me in jail. Fortunately for everyone involved I locked myself out of the house. My car keys were in there as well. I was eventually able to get back inside and drive upto the hospital. I had plenty of time to cool off by the time I got up there. I was not able to speak to that nurse, (because they knew she was in the wrong) instead they had me speak with one of the counselors. I was basically told that I signed a released form and it didn't matter what I did & didn't want them to say. So I went home and threw away the medication I was taking. I had no plans to ever go back to any type of therapist again.

During this whole process I have been off from work. In order to go back to work I have to get a DOT (Department of Transportation) physical because I drive a truck for my job that requires I get one every 2 years. I goto the doctor they tell me to and I pass the physical no problem. The next day I get a call saying I have to go back because I didn't mention I had been off work for my depression. When the doctor asks why I didn't mention this I told her that I didn't think it mattered and I don't trust doctors. She starts grilling me on things like if I'm on any medication & if I'm seeing a doctor. When she finds out I'm not she starts pressing for me to see one that is associated with her medical group. Once she understands that I am not going to see anyone she fails my DOT physical and writes on my paperwork that goes back to my employer that I had attempted suicide. I never said I attempted nor did I ever try. This pissed me off. red flag #4

Several months later I decided to call my insurance company and get a list of therapists in my area I could go see. Researching them really triggered my depression and made it worse. I finally found one. Turns out she was a hypnotherapist. She was so good at her job that the tremor in my right hand got worse. Now not only does my right arm shake like crazy so does my right leg. While seeing her I started cutting which she didn't seem concerned about. red flag #5 I have always been told that cutting is very bad. I have since changed my out look it. Then I had to cancel an appointment and I never rescheduled. One day her receptionist called me & left a voice mail. When I called back turns out she wasn't concerned about me she just wanted to fill up that day's empty appointments. red flag #6 So I never saw her again.

Some time after this I decided I will give IOP another chance. It seemed to be helping before I got screwed. I went to a different mental hospital on the other side of town this time. I went there one day after work just to talk to them & get more information on their IOP. After talking with them they "recommended" I check into to the hospital. When I said I didn't want to do that I was informed I didn't have a choice. I told them this would do more harm than good, but they didn't care. red flag #7 Come to find out there is such a thing as legal kidnapping. Well I learned my lesson from last time and I did not give them consent to release any of my information to anyone.

The doctor I was assigned to was very arrogant and condescending. Everyone that had him thought that not just me. I refused to work with him and I wouldn't tell him much of anything. He wanted to talk with my wife & I refused that. He told me that if I didn't cooperate and let them talk with my wife that he would have the court commit me to a State facility. red flag #8 So now I am being forced to let them release my information.

That all happened in 2015 and I have not been back to anyone since & most likely will die before I ever go back.

Sorry for the long post.

Humpty, No wonder you don't trust doctors. I think the state and nonprofit facilities where people are committed against their will are the worst of the worst. -Myst

[Fuzzybear]

I don't trust doctors either

...........

[Humpty Dumpty]

Originally Posted by Mysterious153

Humpty, No wonder you don't trust doctors. I think the state and nonprofit facilities where people are committed against their will are the worst of the worst. -Myst

Like I say it's only paranoia until it happens. I have good reason to be parinoid. All of my concerns are legitimate, but I'm still branded as parinoid. whatever

[Humpty Dumpty]

Originally Posted by Fuzzybear

I don't trust doctors either

...........

I know fuzzy. I know. I'm sorry you have this problem too.

[adam_k]

You had a very traumatic experience with them. Personally my doctors have respected my privacy but considering what you went through I don't think anyone would blame you for not trusting them. If you cant trust the doctors they may not be very helpful as you will likely resist treatment and have a lot of friction.

It sounds like they bullied you into getting admitted. You may have been able to refuse and make them obtain a court order. The burden should be on them to prove you are a danger. Someone can have suicidal thoughts but not be a danger. It's a symptom of depression. The law gets tricky though. From my experience medical doctors are concerned with vague thoughts but when there is a specific plan they may feel you are a danger. I was hospitalized once after talking to my therapist. I was honest and at the time I did need to. I admitted myself so it was easier to get out when I found the hospital was not the treatment I needed.

There are over the counter medicines that may help your depression. Like St. Johns wort or supplements. They may not be as effective and your options could be more limited, but it could be worth the try if you are in a bad place and don't know what else to do.

Have you thought about group therapy? Maybe being able to talk to people struggling with the same issues and building a support system you feel safe with could help you.

[Humpty Dumpty]

Originally Posted by adam_k

Have you thought about group therapy? Maybe being able to talk to people struggling with the same issues and building a support system you feel safe with could help you.

I have tried group therapy before for about a month. We'd meet 3 days a week. It didn't really help because I felt like I couldn't really say what was on my mind. I had to guard & choose my words carefully so I wouldn't say the wrong thing. Every time the therapist would walk out of the room I was always planning an "escape" route incase she showed back up with the police. The first group therapy place I went to refused to treat me basically because of my parinoia. So what's the point of therapy if you can't be completely honest?

As far as supliments I have tried 5 HTP for about 3 weeks and quit because it had my emotions all over the place. Literally I would be really happy almost on the verge of excited (over nothing) to 5 minutes later being really sad. This made my depression worse because I hated feeling that way.

[chesspoliwag]

Psychology is a very, very poor science. Sometimes it seems a pseudoscience or even charlatanism, in my humble opinion.

I don't trust them either...
But there may be exceptions, idk.

[Jenny R]

I'm so sorry you had those experiences. Doctors can be awful and we need to self-advocate. The problem is that it is almost impossible to self-advocate when you are at your lowest.

Can you report them calling your wife? If you are in USA it is a HIPPA violation.

I do have a pdoc and she is OK. Good, not great. You could try going to a pdoc on your own. You could also try a therapist who is understanding, helpful, and understand the meaning of the words private and confidential. It is difficult but check yelp and various other sources. Then interview a few. That's worked for me. Check who is covered by your insurance before you start looking. Just some thoughts.

[Humpty Dumpty]

Originally Posted by Jenny R

Can you report them calling your wife? If you are in USA it is a HIPPA violation.

Basically no. They have my signature saying I would allow them to release info to her. I was told that was the only way she would be able to visit me. I was in the middle of a nervous breakdown at the time & didn't know/think to fight that. I was also told I had to allow them to release info to my insurance company in order for them to pay for my treatment.

As far as finding a Pdoc I have tried. I have been through all of the ones my insurance covers. I have gotten a list before and had to cold call & would sometimes get a women's center. I'm not a woman. :/

[BudFox]

My general feeling is that mainstream healthcare should be avoided at all costs. In an emergency you sometimes have no choice but to engage with it. Most of the doctors I have seen are fanatical drug pushers and were more likely to harm than help.

Sounds traumatic what you went through.

Anyway, are you in a location where you have access to legal medicinal cannabis? Powerful stuff. Fair bit of evidence for efficacy with depression, anxiety, PTSD, and more.

Also might be worthwhile to seek out a doctor of Functional or Naturopathic medicine. This generally means going outside the mainstream system, which means higher cost, but likely you will be treated like a human being rather than than a piece of meat.

[Humpty Dumpty]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Anyway, are you in a location where you have access to legal medicinal cannabis? Powerful stuff. Fair bit of evidence for efficacy with depression, anxiety, PTSD, and more.

No I am not. On top of that my employer does not allow it & yes they do do random drug tests, yearly drug tests, & drug tests whenever you file an OJI.

[GGChar]

That is just an incredible set of horrible experiences. I can tell you were really invested in your health and kept trying: only to be screwed over and over.

I think people keep recommending that you try things out is because some of us have had good luck with the system and meds.

I am so sorry you have had so many traumatic experiences. When I was admitted to detox they had a student come in and grill me for over an hour like I was a mouse in a cage. I was drunk when I went in so I just gave my permission. I thought I had to do everything they said. They also locked the doors behind me so I couldn't leave. This was before I had signed any sort of paper. Once you're in they call your insurance, make sure you can pay and then off you go.

The only real help I can offer is this:
I take Source Naturals Wellness Formula supplement. I can honestly say they changed my life. They brought me out of walking pneumonia and I feel have kept me really physically healthy. As I was taking them I noticed my depression symptoms were really improving as well. I was energetic, happy and involved. I actually gave out bottles to a few friends. I realized this past weekend I have forgotten to take them for a few weeks as I was prescribed a new med. I am going right now to start up again. 2 in the morning, 2 in the evening.

Also, my psychiatrist has given me Atenelol for my familial tremors. My hands shake unless I take this medicine. Of all the meds I take this is a miracle for me. No more shaking! I am an artist who does detailed work and this med saved me.

These are just things that worked for me. I really hope someday you find the right people in your life that can help you.

[Always Hurting]

GGChar: Thanks for posting about Source Naturals Wellness Formula. Hearing that it helped your depression really makes me want to try it.

[Humpty Dumpty]

Originally Posted by GGChar

The only real help I can offer is this:
I take Source Naturals Wellness Formula supplement. I can honestly say they changed my life. They brought me out of walking pneumonia and I feel have kept me really physically healthy. As I was taking them I noticed my depression symptoms were really improving as well. I was energetic, happy and involved. I actually gave out bottles to a few friends. I realized this past weekend I have forgotten to take them for a few weeks as I was prescribed a new med. I am going right now to start up again. 2 in the morning, 2 in the evening.

I am worried about taking supplements because I tried taking 5 HTP for a little bit. After about half a bottle was gone (take 1 pill day as often as I could remember) my depression wasn't any better, I felt more hopeless than ever, & I was having serious rage issues. My anger got so bad one day, over nothing, that I wanted to go & get in a fight. I either wanted to beat the crap out of someone or get the crap beaten out of me. I didn't care which one. Another time it got so bad I seriously wanted to to OD one some medicine I had so it would kill me. Since I stopped taking it my anger is much better now. It is for those reasons I am leery of taking an OTC suppliment. I really don't want to go back to that state of mind again. I am truly worried about what would happen if I go back there again. Would I survive it? How bad would I get messed up?

[BudFox]

5htp is a neurotransmitter precursor so could possibly alter brain chemistry. Not all OTC supplements are going to do this. Seems Rx meds pose a similar danger.

Could consider supplementing with basic nutrients that function more globally and are known to be vital to brain function - B vitamins, vit D, magnesium, zinc, essential fatty acids. Plus the usual good sleep, sunshine, exercise,

Also unaddressed hypothyroid and hypoadrenals can be ruinous to mood, energy, etc.

[Takeshi]

To echo BudFox's word, what has done to you is unconscionable.

Thanks for sharing the story. You seem too nice to care about the trigger, the code is for suckers, any one of us can pull it 'cuz nobody else knows what's in our clips, in the chambers. You're the hope, the hope for a new chamber of commerce.

As I see it, your marriage was violated, f-ed over by these thugs, leaving you bamboozled. I'm really sorry for what happened to you.

[jrae]

I totally understand and am kinda in the same boat. I don't really trust doctors either. and I don't tell people things cuz the only way to protect myself is to keep it inside, imo!

but here's what I would do. I'd get as much ROI forms and papers as you can. even get a digital recorder and record convos as people explain things to you. then I'd consult with a lawyer! releasing health information and forcing a person to comply with or consent to something is a crime. let the lawyer tell you exactly what medical people can do and not do.

I've had a little run-in with that myself. I think at one point, I drafted my own ROI form (different than the general ones) and used that. I think if medical people can't adhere to the privacy rules and laws, then screw them!

I have a lawyer right now for a car crash case, and even all the records he needs is f-ing scary! and I flat out told him that there was no way in h*ll I'd ever take this to court cuz then ALL my medical records become public (not only the other lawyers seeing them but the county where the court is, people could go look them up)!!! hearing him explain that possibility to me, I think scared the holy living **** out of me!

and insurance companies aren't much better either. and never sign a blank ROI form, if people tell you they will fill in later the info about who it goes to or is for! cuz some of those say photocopies are valid - meaning multiple copies could be made and filled out later! (used for god knows what purposes)

holy cow, now I'm sounding a little paranoid...

[Humpty Dumpty]

Originally Posted by jrae

holy cow, now I'm sounding a little paranoid...

Doesn't sound like parinoia to me. Sounds like someone with legitimate concerns. "Oh who the hell would want my social security number or my identity? You're just being paranoid." That was a common thought until the 90s I believe. Now there are business out there built on that "parinoia".
It's only paranoia until it happens. So no you're not being paranoid at all you bring up legitimate concerns.

[Rose76]

Hello Humpty D. You have written an important, thorough account of what can go wrong. Your account is a testament to how dysfuntional the whole mental health care system is. Of course your trust is shattered. I'm a consumer of mental health care services and, also, a nurse who has worked - rather briefly - in psych care venues. A lot of what you narrated was not only a betrayal of your trust but, also, flat out illegal. Based on my experience, I do warn people to be extremely careful in dealing with the system. It seems you just can't be careful enough to guarantee that stuff like what you narrated doesn't happen.

Here's a few offerings gleaned from my experience:

First of all - Never assume that anyone who tells you anything actually knows what they're talking about. That person may even truly believe what they are saying and still be completely wrong. Also, some people will flat out lie to you. You absolutely do have a legal right to not have all your medical information disclosed to your wife. An exception would be if you were telling doctors or therapists that you were planning to kill your wife. Then they would have a legal duty to warn her. Short of that, there's not much that you have any obligation to let them disclose. About the only way around that would be if you were so permanently mentally incompetent that a court appointed your wife as your legal guardian. It takes a hearing and a judge to set that up. Then your wife would have the same access to your medical information that she would have on a small child. (By the way, there are even legal limits on how far medical professionals can go in disregarding a child's requests for privacy.) So that doctor threatening to send you to a state facility may have been over-stepping his authority.

Psych hospitals always have a conference room that is used as a make-shift courtroom, and they do hold legal hearings there, presided over by a judge, all the time. No doctor can just "have the court" commit you to anything. The judge is not a puppet of the doctor. The doctor merely offers his opinion to the judge. The judge gives that opinion due consideration, but does not blindly follow the recommendation of any doctor. The judge would also engage you in conversation and listen carefully to your concerns. We have a tradition in this country of judges being slow to take away the freedom of a citizen, or to declare a person mentally incompetent. I think that doctor was totally bluffing about getting a court to send you to a state facility. Making phoney threats, by the way, is illegal. Even if a judge felt you were not safe to be released, he would most likely have simply extended the number of days that you could be involuntarily held at the place you were in - most likely to a week to 30 days. Then a reassessment would be in order before detaining you longer.

Insurance companies do pretty much have a legal right to thoroughly review the medical record of care they are being asked to pay for. Spouses have absolutely no such right. You don't even have to allow your spouse to visit you in the hospital. You most certainly do not have to allow her to attend your sessions with pdocs and couselors.

Point #2: After signing a release of information form, you have a right to rescind that permission at any time.

Also, standard forms do not always offer options that exactly correspond to what you want to stipulate. You have a right to take a blank sheet of paper and write on it specific stipulations that are not covered by the standard form. Then you write on the standard form that there is an additional handwritten sratement that modifies the standard form and you direct that all relevant parties must refer to it.

Kind of sad, isn't it, that you have to become almost an apprentice lawyer to protect yourself, but you do. I believe you were outright lied to by professionals who knew they were lying. It happens.

Having said all of that, I do not want to discourage you from seeking whatever help and treatment you may actually need. I affirm your conclusion that you can not trust anyone in this system. However, you can educate yourself about your rights and how to assert them. (Hard to do in the midst of an emotional breakdown, I know.)

[Humpty Dumpty]

Originally Posted by Rose76

First of all - Never assume that anyone who tells you anything actually knows what they're talking about. That person may even truly believe what they are saying and still be completely wrong. Also, some people will flat out lie to you. You absolutely do have a legal right to not have all your medical information disclosed to your wife. An exception would be if you were telling doctors or therapists that you were planning to kill your wife. Then they would have a legal duty to warn her.

Psych hospitals always have a conference room that is used as a make-shift courtroom, and they do hold legal hearings there, presided over by a judge, all the time. No doctor can just "have the court" commit you to anything. The judge is not a puppet of the doctor. The doctor merely offers his opinion to the judge. The judge gives that opinion due consideration, but does not blindly follow the recommendation of any doctor. The judge would also engage you in conversation and listen carefully to your concerns.

I was led to believe, may have even been told flat out (I don't remember), that all they would do is just file the paperwork with the court & the judge would sign off on it. Which implies that I would not even be there to represent myself. Which how could I be? I had been kidnapped. The 2nd hospital didn't "make me" let them my wife but they did tell me they had to talk to someone before they would let me go.

The whole legality of the situations are irrelevant now. I was unable to find an attorney who would take my case on a win & collect basis. I found 1 that would take it but they charged somewhere around $1k an hour. Which I cant afford. So it doesn't matter now if it was legal. I have no ramifications I can take against them & their damage has been done.

[Rose76]

It's not too hard for a doctor to keep you in a psych unit against your will for 72 hours. If the doctor wants to hold you longer - against your will - it gets more complicated. Bear in mind that psychiatric beds are in very short supply. There's a lot of competition for those beds. It's actually kind of hard to even get a bed in a psych facility . . . for a short stay, nevermind a prolonged stay.

But - back to the issue of involuntary commitment. Putting a psych patient on a 72 hour hold is pretty routine. A doctor can do that. In some states, a doctor can even petition the court to authorize a 15 day hold. That doesn't always require a hearing. Where I worked, I never knew of anyone being kept more than 72 hours (involuntarily) without a hearing being held, where a judge came in to hear the testimony of the psychiatrists, therapists and the patient. I used to sometimes hear doctors saying they thought a patient needed to be kept longer, but they didn't think the judge would approve their petition for commitment.

A patient under involuntary commitment has a right to a hearing being held and an opportunity to ask the judge to approve an order to be released. I'm not sure how speedily that has to be arranged, but, it's somewhere between 72 hours and two weeks. The patient has a right to be there and talk to the judge. You even have a right to an attorney. If you're poor, an attorney will be provided to you for free. Here's a manual about how it works in one state:
OPA: Your Rights in a Psychiatric Facility

I have known of doctors ordering a patient to be transported to a state psychiatric facility. But, even there, the patient still has a right to a hearing before a judge within a reasonable amount of time. Like I said, every hospital has a conference room where judges hold these hearings. Typically, the patient is escorted to the hearing room by one or two mental health techs, depending on the patient's behavior and propensity toward violence. The judge is obligated to explain your rights to you.

A main point I want to make is that doctors are not lawyers. Don't ever depend on a healthcare professional to give you advice about your legal rights. If you do, you're apt to get a bunch of misinformation.

I have known hospital personnel to tell patients things that were just flat out untrue. In-patients have a right to call Adult Protective Services. Also, they have a right to contact an ombudsman, who can help resolve a conflict between a patient and hospital staff.

There is another thing to bear in mind: You can't have your cake and eat it too. When you present yourself at a psych unit, saying that you have very serious plans to harm yourself, then you have a duty to cooperate with the staff in formulating a reasonable plan to keep yourself safe. Otherwise, you do have the option of going off into the woods and quietly hanging yourself . . . . . and no one will bother you.

[Humpty Dumpty]

Thanks for that info Rose

[Zukodyn]

Originally Posted by Humpty Dumpty

I am worried about taking supplements because I tried taking 5 HTP for a little bit. After about half a bottle was gone (take 1 pill day as often as I could remember) my depression wasn't any better, I felt more hopeless than ever, & I was having serious rage issues. My anger got so bad one day, over nothing, that I wanted to go & get in a fight. I either wanted to beat the crap out of someone or get the crap beaten out of me. I didn't care which one. Another time it got so bad I seriously wanted to to OD one some medicine I had so it would kill me. Since I stopped taking it my anger is much better now. It is for those reasons I am leery of taking an OTC suppliment. I really don't want to go back to that state of mind again. I am truly worried about what would happen if I go back there again. Would I survive it? How bad would I get messed up?

Your negative experience with 5 HTP confirms what other people had experienced.

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by Humpty Dumpty

Basically no. They have my signature saying I would allow them to release info to her. I was told that was the only way she would be able to visit me. I was in the middle of a nervous breakdown at the time & didn't know/think to fight that. I was also told I had to allow them to release info to my insurance company in order for them to pay for my treatment.

As far as finding a Pdoc I have tried. I have been through all of the ones my insurance covers. I have gotten a list before and had to cold call & would sometimes get a women's center. I'm not a woman. :/

Despite signing releases, a patient always has the right to rescind permission to release information. So you can - at anytime - revoke the permission you give to any provider to share private info. Not that I'm claiming you have secure control of your personal information. As you found out the hard way, the system can and does betray people, even to an illegal extent. Then, unless you can demonstrate that harm came to you, as a result, you have a hard time suing them. Plus, few lawyers want to go up against a healthcare facility (for something like this) . . . especially if you don't have a ton of money to incentivize them with. So they get away with abusing your trust.

Telling you that your wife couldn't visit, unless she had access to your private info was just nuts. They do have to release info to your insurance co. to get paid.

So now you know firsthand how things actually play out.

I have learned that I can not be totally honest with people in the healthcare system, and I never will be. However, I do have a medication (amitriptyline) that helps me, and I get it. I tell them what I want them to know to get what I want to get.