[dexter]

I haven't posted about this yet because I don't know if anyone I know reads here but it has been on my mind a lot. It's about trust and yes, I know I have been going on and on and on about this with the same people but with all the anxiety I've been having it is still a big issue, as has been thinking about work.

The story so far... I've been upset with friends who promise to do things and then become no shows even though they know what I'm going through and know how important to me some things are. My one friend who has stuck by was going to come to help me move my monitor at the end of week, mid week he emailed me that something had come up and he wouldn't be able to make it but would come monday. I jokingly replied that I didn't understand what his message meant because if he couldn't make it he wasn't supposed to tell me so, he was supposed to confirm the appointment and then just not show up... because that's what all the other people seem to do.

The one in particular, the one I hadn't spoken to in a long while, but who came to see me in the hospital, I thought we worked things out when he came to see me. He had been out of touch because he thought I wanted him to stay away, and he said it was very bad for him to have to stay away and he was so glad I "allowed" him to visit me in the hospital. I assured him that I did want to see him and that the bad sense he was getting from me was just because I was depressed and isolated. I think he has known I have been depressed and suicidal long before I went to the hospital and was afraid to rock the boat.

I did admit to him some things that had upset me, things like promises to visit that never came through. I understood that he was busy but I asked him just to please only ask to come over only if you really will be able to come. After a few more contacts I didn't hear from him again for several weeks. Finally I asked him what had happened and if he no longer wanted to visit me, and he said he did want to visit me but stopped asking if he could come over because the last time he asked I didn't say anything, and he took that to mean that I didn't want him here. Well what had happened was that after that previous talk with him he continued to make vague offers to come over, I said I was looking forward to seeing him, and then he never came. So I no longer considered him saying he "might be free next week" as asking to come over. I just didn't want to keep saying "yes" and then getting hurt. I was waiting for him to call back and say "yes turns out I am free this week, can I come on Tuesday" and then I would have said yes.

But he thought since I didn't say "yes" or "no" to that, that I didn't want him to visit anymore. He was also upset that I made a comment in one of my emails that I don't hear from him for months at a time, just like my other friends who haven't made any effort at all. He thinks he is not in that category because he "thinks of me everyday." Puh-leeze. I know he is much more understanding and I do believe he sincerely wants to help, but I pointed out to him that from my point of view, during periods when I can't get out of the house, if I can't get anyone to visit it really doesn't matter to me whether they are "thinking of me" or not. And it becomes actually worse because I build expectations and then they get dashed. The ones who are just plain no-shows I have no expectations of.

He also insisted that he is in touch with me more than once a month but he isn't. He must be on a different calendar than I am on.

Anyway I told him all this the last time he came to visit... on recommendation of my T. I made it very very very clear that I NEVER didn't want him to visit... he was more than welcome anytime, and that he should go around trying to second guess my thoughts. I assured him if I ever didn't want him to come I would say so, there would be no sublty involved.

A few more incidents passed where he was going to come (twice actually) on the way from other events (that I noticed he had time for those) and couldn't make it because he got out later than he thought or got stuck in traffic. I don't think he is making up excuses... but if it were me I sure as hell would understand how important these things are and I wouldn't let myself "forget the time." I'd sit in traffic if I had to. It is confusing to me because he I do not think he is lying or hedging. He seems honestly sincere that he wants to see me and just gets sidetracked and can't make it. But he's never stuck in traffic for other events, and seems to be able to plan them into his schedule and not get sidetracked.

I've asked him to just please be honest with me, he understands and assures me that the problem is merely that he sometimes just doesn't realize, and he can't help from "reading into my words" but promised he would try hard not to do so in the future. And now it has been more than a month since I've heard from him, yet he keeps popping up in other conversations on the web, so as much as he says he is immersed in work he has time for that occasionally. I thought I made it clear to him that it wasn't a huge problem if he was unable to visit me or contact me... whether it was because he was busy or even if he was just truly upset after visiting me and didn't want to say so... just don't keep insisting otherwise and then apologizing and explaining it and reassuring me that he wants to be there for me and then just dropping me again. I feel like a freakin' yoyo of emotions over this. I haven't contacted him in a while because I've been so hurt by this. But I also told him when we had our talk that I was pretty shaky and unlikely to call him so for now he would have to be the one to make an effort to stay in touch. I had just had too many unanswered emails to be comfortable, because not hearing back, even just an acknowledgement that he received it, was really hurting me.

So time has passed and he hasn't been in touch again. No way am I going to contact him and just repeat this. I know he has been very busy at work, but I also know he has been doing other things because even when he tells me he is too busy, pictures circulate from other things he has been doing. So I have just been laying off and giving him some space. If he wants to see me he can call me and arrange a visit...

So that was all "status quo" and I've been starting to feel better as you know, accepting things more and getting out more, finally some progress it seems. I kept myself busy last weekend working on the newsletter for my Star Wars charity group (I'll post the link to it in another forum) and although I'm still gun-shy about being with people, at least I have been able to be in touch enough to get the newsletter completed.

Just as I'm finishing the newsletter I find out that there was a party to celebrate an anniversary in a nearby town... and lots of people were there, including this guy. So he didn't get stuck in traffic for that. I would have loved to see these people, I haven't seen them in awhile, and they also know what has been going on with me. But I wasn't even invited to this, not even out of courtesy. And no one mentioned it to me until after the event was over. So obviously it wasn't a big conspiracy to keep me out or else no one would have mentioned it. I can't figure out why I wasn't invited, I can't figure out why no one mentioned it to me (if they assumed that I wouldn't be able to make it because I have been ill I would have expected at least a mention of it) and if the host just wasn't sure if they should invite me or not (worried it might make me sad if I couldn't make it) then this guy friend of mine should have said something... I made it clear as black and white in 14 pt helvetica bold that I did not want to be left out of the loop on things because that is what hurts me. I don't know if just no one thought I would find out? I really have no clue. As much as I complain, these particular people are not bad people and I don't believe they don't care about me. Some of them may not realize how important to me they are. But I've always been included with them in the past, everytime, I'm part of that "group". Or at least I thought I was. I confided in this guy that even though I know people care about me, that I don't feel as if I belong anywhere anymore. I don't believe that he doesn't understand that. I don't know what to believe.

But the whole thing REALLY shook me. My hurt has always been because of "carelessness", people falling through on their promises but I believe not out of spite and not out of not caring, just me not being a priority enough for them to make the effort. And a lot of that I think is that they assume I have lots of "closer" friends who are making the effort and so they're slacking off is not a big deal. Yes I have tried to make it clear to these people. If they are just not close enough friends that they can make the effort to help me out from time to time (I'm talking a visit once in a while to watch a movie or something... I'm not asking them to come change my diapees or anything) then I'm not really mad at them, I'm just upset that I don't have anyone in my life who is that close, when I thought that I had and certainly have acted toward them going the extra mile when they needed me.

I told my T last appointment that maybe they are just all getting together to plan a huge surprise party for me to cheer me up... but if that's what they are doing, I would think that after seven months they would be ready to spring the surprise by now.

------------------------------------
--http://www.idexter.com

[silver_queen]

I hate friends like that, I have one friend who doesn't keep her promises and even when she knew I was suicidal, she didn't try to help me, even though I was desperate for her help...[sigh] I find people who don't keep promises so annoying...

_____________________
RIP Dexter...
<font color=red>The best dog ever!!!</font color=red>

<font color=green>In the real dark night of the soul it is always three o'clock in the morning.</font color=green>
- F. Scott Fitzgerald

[TracyC]

I couldn't help thinking when I read your post....to remember how thankful you are, that you even have a friend(s). I hope that doesn't sound mean becuase I don't mean it that way. What I mean is I really don't have any friends and I live a really isolated life. IS a bad friend better than no friend at all? I don't know the answer to that one. All I know is it gets really lonely without a good friend in you life.
Tracy

~TracyC~

[Fuzzybear]

I am so sorry Dex, I know how this sort of thing hurts. You deserve so much better {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Dex}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[PlanningtoLive]

I'm sorry, Dave. It is difficult to have no one in your life - I know.

Outside of work, there is home - nothing else. No socializing, no nothing for me.

I think that these people owed you the courtesy of letting you know about this get-to-gether and give you the choice of arriving or not. I wish they would clear things up and treat you the way you should be treated.


<font color=red>Don't you just hate it when life doesn't follow the manuals? - Author Unknown</font color=red>

[krzyk101]

Hi ((((((((Dexter))))))))

Sounds like these feelings and issues have been going on for quite a while and now you were able to in a way release them. I can relate to many of the aspects of your post.

I guess for me, in some similar situations I have had as you said that these people are really not 'bad people' or anything that is the part I can relate to, the fact that I care about these people and they would be so much easier dismissed if they actually were horrible monstorus people. The fact that I care about the people who are like those you mentioned is what causes me hurt and pain.

I have learned in therapy that I have some types of abandoment issues which cause for me to be very sensitive to things like unreturned phone calls or e mails, letters, and contacts I do make. The effort I do make to get up the nerve to contact some of the people I do care about is alot due to the very fear of what many times seems to come with it. Deeeeelayed reply's. I don't believe that the people realize how it is to be in the house alone all the time without contact, along with the depression. I feel like when I get one of these delayed reply's that by the time I get it, I have been thinking about the fact that they haven't reply'd for so long that in my mind I have already given up on them in a sense that when I do finally hear from them I get the opposite feeling that one would expect to be 'normal', instead more like anger or detached emotions. In my mind they have already hurt me and the call has came just a little too late.

Tonight I had a friend who called me that I have not heard from for over 3 weeks, and he said he wanted me to come over and see him and his wife. I said I would think about it. My immediate reaction was what does he want from me. Why all of the sudden after all this time does he call out of the blue. I am not going. Basicaly I do not have anything else to do, though the call came just quite a few weeks too late.

I am sorry I am going on and on here, I guess I am trying to say hang in there and that I can relate and know how much these things hurt. I do hope that it does help you at least to have gotten it out and that it is floating around on the web for others to read and that they may feel alot the same way, and help to know they are not alone.

I really hope that things begin to look up, and that your friends will start to understand your feelings and needs better. I had contacted a friend I hadn't talked to for 10 years and when I tried to explain to her of my disiabiliy and mental health. She said "I don't get it, you weren't crazy when we ran around together in High School" I did not take offense, only made me realize how much she did not understand about the "me" that changed over the years.

I'm sorry this reply is so long. Hope things get to going more positive for you. Take it easy.

Chris

Best Wishes-
~KRIS~

If you think you have totally gave up, you haven't, because you are here!

[silver_queen]

Is a bad friend better than no friend at all?

Yes, I suppose so. At least I've got a person I can call a friend. One of the worst things is that the friend I'm talking about has slowly got worse over the years (over the last year especially) and I have known her for 8 years. It's one of those things: you think you've got a friend for life, and then suddenly, you realize you haven't. But it's also worse realizing that your only friendship is coming to a close: you realize the comfort of a close friendship has vanished, and apart from relatives you are alone in the world. Not a pleasant feeling. Luckily I have 2 online friends: one friendship is going to break apart since the other friend is getting over the one thing that brought us together, which is depression; and the other, at the moment, may be trying to kill herself and I can't do much about it since she lives on the other side of the world to me. Without friends, I am lonely. I'm feeling lonely already and at the mo. I still have them all, to my knowledge.

_____________________
RIP Dexter...
<font color=red>The best dog ever!!!</font color=red>

<font color=green>In the real dark night of the soul it is always three o'clock in the morning.</font color=green>
- F. Scott Fitzgerald

[mj14]

dex, I am in a very similar situation with my friends. They all live fairly close to each other, and I live on the other side of the city, not really far away, but far enough that I can't always join in on spur of the moment activities. And it just seems that if you miss one thing, then people are less likely to invite you to the next thing.

There also seems to be another dynamic with my friends...maybe it applies to yours, too. For some reason, even when I'm in the midst of the worst depression, my friends have this notion that I am ok. I'm the "strong one", and nothing about the reality of my situation seems to shake that belief. I once told two of my girlfriends that I had terrible panic attacks about driving into the city to meet them that evening, and they listened and tried to understand, but I could see that my panicking over something like that was too far out of their concept of me for them to really accept it. From what I see of you here, you also appear to be one of those "I'm ok, I've got everything together" kinds of people, so perhaps your friends can't believe you really need them, no matter how much you tell them you do.

I have also noticed the same thing here at work...people assume I don't want to be asked about lunch plans and things, even if I try to tell them I do. I have no idea what I do differently than others to project this "I don't need any help" aura...but I have to believe that I am doing something, since this pattern repeats itself over and over again, with many different groups of people.

Now for the good news...I have managed to change this pattern of being left out. Even though it really felt like desperation for awhile, I forced myself to be the one to ask people what they were doing, and even to invite myself along to things. I will even plan activities, so that I put myself in the position of asking people to join me, instead of be asked to join others. I know how hard this is to do when you're feeling depressed - there was quite awhile when I was not strong enough to manage it - and maybe you're not at a place where you can reach out so aggressively yet. But I can tell that you are getting stronger, and if you can get yourself out to do things even now and then, people will start to remember to ask you along for more things. It's not perfect for me...there's still times when I'm home alone because my friends just forget to call their friend who's an hour away...but it is so much better than it was. And when I really need to do something, I know that I can call and ask them if they want to get together.

Just one more thing, before I wrap up my novella. I do think it's easier for people to cancel out on a visit to someone's house vs. some kind of activity. It doesn't sound very considerate, since your friends should know that you need people to visit, but it's the kind of thing that people figure they can always do another night. Even though you don't want to make these visits special (maybe because you are afraid of the disappointment if "special" plans fall through), anything that can make it appear that there's a reason you want the person to visit on that particular day...making dinner just for them, renting a movie that will have to be returned...might help encourage them to find a way to make it instead of letting a little thing cancel it out. And of course, if you can possibly make plans out of the house, going to a movie or dinner or something, would probably make it even more likely they will actually make it.

Good luck. Like I said, I can totally relate to what you are going through. And it's not easy, but you really can change things. Because I know you are a lot of fun, and a really great guy, and these friend definitely want to spend time with you.

*hugs*
Jo

<font color=green> If she spins fast enough then maybe the broken pieces of her heart will stay together, but even a gyroscope can't spin forever</font color=green>

[silver_queen]

>>For some reason, even when I'm in the midst of the worst depression, my friends have this notion that I am ok. I'm the "strong one", and nothing about the reality of my situation seems to shake that belief...perhaps your friends can't believe you really need them, no matter how much you tell them you do.<<
I'm similar to that too, mj. When I was suicidal my friend didn't ever seem to realize just how much danger I was in, and I told her often I needed her to help me, and she didn't. I let her read my diary which was all about how I wanted to die and she still didn't do anything...

_____________________
RIP Dexter...
<font color=red>The best dog ever!!!</font color=red>

<font color=green>In the real dark night of the soul it is always three o'clock in the morning.</font color=green>
- F. Scott Fitzgerald

[dexter]

Thank you kris... what you said is EXACTLY what I'm feeling. It would be so easy to dismiss them as monsters... which is why sometimes on the board here I describe them as so. And every once in a while I like to balance that, because my descriptions are a sort of venting for me... just "pretending" they are monsters and getting validation of such from others, but in the long run they don't deserve that.

One thing for me about delayed replies has been that as I was sinking into depression I took more and more offense at that, even though I knew there was nothing behind it, I was convincing myself that they were doing it intentionally, and moreover, doing it only to me (i.e. as if they reply to everyone else promptly and let mine sit.) See my own novel about "patterns" in the thread "deserving to be lonely?"

When I got out of the hospital I fought very hard to get past that, very successfully. Instead of waiting for calls to "prove" that they loved me I would call them if I wanted to talk. My calls were accepted very well, they were happy to hear from me. They weren't staying away because they didn't care, they were staying away because they did care, and all the signals I had been giving out over the past months had been that I didn't want contact, that I wanted people away from me while I dealt with this... and they were respecting my wishes. I know I do give off that vibe even though I think I am consciously saying otherwise, my "body language" so to speak was saying otherwise.

Over the course of recovery though I had some long open talks with the people I thought would most understand. I told them flat out what I wanted and what I needed, and that any "signs" otherwise that they might read into things were just the depression. They seemed very sincere and understanding. One of my biggest requests was not that they make sure they visit, just that they try to visit and if they have to cancel to CONTACT ME AND LET ME KNOW and they still can't seem to do that. Maybe in their minds now it is easier to just not ever make any plans with me or accept any invitations rather than to try to keep that simple promise.

With regard to the invite from your friend, I think you should try to make it there if you can. Do you really think that he wants something, or is that just the depression thinking things out for you? Without knowing him or the situation, it seems plausable that 3 weeks had past where he was occupied with other things, and then realized that it had been a while since he spoke to you, and decided to invite you to dinner to make up for it. Also consider the future with this friend... if you don't accept it will probably put the kibosh on future offers, not necessarily resentment, but because he will think that is not an appropriate "apology" or peace offering, and so he may just end up at a loss over what to do.

Also if he does want something from you, it may make you feel better to face him with that... tell him how that makes you feel that he only calls when he wants something. Better than stewing over it. That's what I did with my friend, and although it seems now that I got little results from that, the act itself did make me feel much better. Now at least I know it is "out there" and that he understands.

I know it may be too difficult for you to face him, even if you agree with me 100%, depression makes it too hard to "believe" and impossible to "act". But if it is something possible to do I hope you will consider trying to see him.

Another thing to consider is that no matter how incredibly pissed off and hurt I am at this particular friend, the fact is when I do see him I always feel better. Even during the visit with the confrontation. I am still stuck from doing anything about this (like calling him and asking for an explanation) but in a large way I am hurting myself even more by not allowing myself to see him.

------------------------------------
--http://www.idexter.com

[dexter]

>> For some reason, even when I'm in the midst of the worst depression, my friends have this notion that I am ok.

I don't think that is the case in my situation... my friends know I have been out home from work for so long, even at the last star wars line (before I was "officially" depressed) they knew there was something wrong and they also knew I was starting to live with pain (I didn't know it was arthritis yet at that point).

When they do talk with me they are supportive and many of them comment on how strong they believe me to be... but not in the context of being strong therefore I don't need help, but rather in the context that they know what an incredibly difficult struggle I have been having and how I am surviving it even with all the problems. They know to point out my small accomplishments when I am looking at the negative.

I still think it has more to do with them all assuming they are "tier two" friends. One thing when I'm well I do make friends among many different groups, and although I do bond specially with particular people, it may be possible that they don't realize I consider them special, so they consider it inappropriate to pry into my dark parts... and assume other people are picking up that role, and that their role is more to the sidelines offering support. Of course that pisses me off that they aren't closer because I interpret it differently, which causes me to be aloof, which causes them to think that right now I just need "space".

And that's where I am now, with so much "space" that I need an astronaut's suit to supply me with oxygen and air pressure to keep me from exploding in the vacuum.

It is the ones that I have specifically explained this to that are causing me the most hurt.

------------------------------------
--http://www.idexter.com

[darkeyes]

Dex, I agree with mj on this she often relates well to others problems, etc.
I personally in the 3d world am social phobic with certain company, and I too have always been regarded as the "strong" one that both my brothers were devastated when I got so down and was suggested by my pdoc to voluntarily sign myself into the hospital.
I do not think I was putting on a facade in the years previous to that, I guess no one close to me either cared or was so blinded by their own heartaches/depression that they never considered I was suffering with a potentially fatal depression.
Maybe they were in denial? Maybe cause they lived far enough that they couldn't notice? I do not know the answer, but I have done something perhaps unhealthy, like staying a "loner", it can be lonely but at least I keep away from people, they can hurt you
Now animals, they are great and safe for me, the only time an animal has hurt me is when they passed away leaving me broken hearted . . . another reason I di not persue becoming a vet.
Oh forgive me for rambling you 2, I guess I'm just going bonkers not being in my home, down here in VA, ha!ha!
Whatever, I think Dex is a great guy and mj is a sweetie, and you can count on me never to hurt either one of you.

DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[gloria]

Dex, MJ and Darkeyes,
I do not have depression so I cannot relate to how you feel. however, I felt compelled to tell you how much you have ment to me.
Dex, you're my Dr. Phill, you help me put my feel on the floor and your words of wisdom always make me think.
MJ, you are such a caring guy, I met you through other people and lately we've been responding to each other. What a gift you are!
Darkeyes, we've had some direct conversations through the posts. You are full of love and understanding. I connect with you.
What ever depression does to you, always remember that is not who you are, is depression taking over. The three of you are incredibly beautiful people. I am so glad you've come into my life, even if it is only electronically.

gab

[shakes]

(((((((Dex))))))))
I completely understand where you are coming from. During one of my hospitalizations neither one of my parents or any of my friends came to see me. Me being depressed has caused me to lose so many people in my life that I have stopped trying to meet new ones. Once my "best friend" told me that she did not want to be around me anymore because I was a "downer" and it was too much trouble being my friend. This was followed by everyone in our group telling me that if I had to "fix" myself before anyone in their right mind would want to be around me.
Needless to say I really do not hang out with anyone anymore. I do not talk about my depression except here. It sucks to say this but I have given up on people being mostly good and I walk around with armor on all the time.

Stay strong,
Jessica

<font color=blue> You are in this snowglobe. It is encovered in glass and secure. But one day someone comes and shakes the globe and the pieces go flying everywhere. Now they will eventually settle but they won't be the way they were before and they can never be that way again. </font color=blue>

[darkeyes]

Oh my, you certainly made my day, thank you
I thank you for dex and mj (she's a she) in case they haven't hit on this reply yet.
You are a special person and deserve all good to come your way

DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[gloria]

I know she's a she. It's my English sometimes not being so good ( second language) ... I ment Gall, not guy ...

Lots of love

gab

[Fuzzybear]

You know that I think you're great! Thinking of you!{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Dex}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[darkeyes]

Cool , I wasn't sure if you knew, I got it now

Take care,
DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[alm15]

Hi Dex. What a hard situation. It must be so frustrating and painful! It sounds like you are being very clear about your needs and kudos for that! Some people are so lost in their own lives they don't think about other people. It sounds like that's what you're running into. I have a sister like that. I just decided it's not worth the effort to even try to have a relationship with her. I'd rather be alone than take her crumbs when she's willing to give them. I'm sorry you're going through this. I hope people who are more caring and reliable will come into your life. You derserve that. You deserve to be heard. It sounds like this friend isn't hearing you at all and isn't being honest with you for whatever reason. I believe in cutting the "dead wood" and moving on. There must be better people out there for. You're a good person and remember you deserve to be treated well. You're not asking for alot, simple courtousy. My 9 year old daughter even knows that's appropriate. Good luck! Annie