[pliepla]

I just had a discussion with my general physician. The idea that keeps recurring is that I should believe in improvement to improve. She does in my opinion cast all previous experiences - including some horrible outcomes of therapy - aside. My answer to that is that I will believe in improvement when it is there. So far I dont see it, not now, not in the near future. If she points out small improvements, it is discouraging as well as, at this pace, it will take maybe thirty years before I can start living. Anyway, this whole discussion feels as if believing in improvement is a necessary condition for improvement and that I wont improve if I dont believe in something, even thought the whole therapeutic establishment has taken my belief from me.

I wonder ... Is it necessary to believe in improvement to improve? And what is it exactly that I should believe in?

I hear you. Today, a friend of mine told me that all I need is confidence. While his intentions are good, his remark missed it's mark. I explained that my challenges are more to do with living in a restrictive world that burdens me. Although my confidence, like that of many others, suffers, I believe that a better starting point would be to provide people with the will to live, rather than implying how they should think or be.

We should be accepted for who presently be and where we presently are. The best we can do is learn to accept ourselves and help others who struggle similarly. Unfortunately, it has become an industry where the focus is less on accepting people as they are but more seeks to identify, label, and keep peole dependent on services that cripple us.

Sigh... Please forgive me, as I am currently in a deep depressive state hemmed with said services. It's okay to feel like giving up. It's okay to lack the will. What we truly need is to be accepted, if not understood.

I've been unable to sleep for months. ZZZzzz. I've been at this life on the bottom rung for many years. It gets very tiring. I just wanted to provide an honest response, hoping that someone might find this information... well, reassuring in some way. The truth is, even those of us who feel miserable have the potential to confide in and comfort each other just as we are, without any need to be more than who we already are.

[kahina23]

acceptation

[mote.of.soul]

I wonder ... Is it necessary to believe in improvement to improve? And what is it exactly that I should believe in?

I think, in the end, if a person has given up on or concluded that improvement is not going to happen for them, then yes you have to believe in improvement (and improvement obviously happens for many people) to gain that vital spark of motivation to continue trying. BUT no one really knows if they will improve. Some will not. Others will get worse. We don't know. But belief in improvement is the key, the initial knowledge, to taking steps.

[unaluna]

Henry Ford said something like, whether you think you can or you can't, you're right.

[Rose76]

Not feeling like there is anything to believe in is a classic symptom of depression. I think it's kind of illogical to ask a depressed person to not have this symptom. I'm assuming you are depressed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope you do experience some kind of improvement. They say the past is the best predictor of the future. I totally get how negative past experience colors our expectations for the future.

[pliepla]

Originally Posted by Rose76

Not feeling like there is anything to believe in is a classic symptom of depression. I think it's kind of illogical to ask a depressed person to not have this symptom. I'm assuming you are depressed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope you do experience some kind of improvement. They say the past is the best predictor of the future. I totally get how negative past experience colors our expectations for the future.

Reading this, is like a warm blanket. I often feel I am not trying hard enough because of these comments I get (and I've had worse from psychiatrist and psychologist).

I have been depressed since three years before my divorce do that is seven years in total without any fundamental improvement. For years every step forward resulted in two Steps back. Things appear slightly better the last two months but I just can't trust life anymore.

[TishaBuv]

It feels like there is a line, like a water level mark, with hope. When we lose hope, we sink into depression, like depression is the loss of hope. It’s like hope is a life raft. If we can find a little bit of hope, we can lift ourselves out of the depths of depression.

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by pliepla

Reading this, is like a warm blanket. I often feel I am not trying hard enough because of these comments I get (and I've had worse from psychiatrist and psychologist).

I have been depressed since three years before my divorce do that is seven years in total without any fundamental improvement. For years every step forward resulted in two Steps back. Things appear slightly better the last two months but I just can't trust life anymore.

I'm glad I offered something that you found validating. I suspect we've had some similar experiences. It gets depressing to feel you've been racking up failures, despite a good deal of effort. It gets heart-breaking. Then to be told that: "If only you'ld work on your issues . . . . if only you'ld try harder . . . " I've been there. I've been told things like that. My response was: "What do you think I've been doing . . . and doing . . . and doing . . . all my life?!" It is the height of arrogance for some professional to suggest that your predicament and your continued difficulties are due to lack of commitment on your part to improve your life. But a lot of them will say that or imply that. Do not let anyone of them be the arbiter of what is true for you. I don't care how many letters are after their name.

You must be honest with yourself and take ownership of where your approach to handling things may have been misguided. That does not mean you weren't trying . . . and trying very hard. Therapy may be helpful, or it may not be. I often found that it wasn't very impactful. The important insights that I've gained I pretty much figured out for myself. None of them were due to some revelation that came out of therapy. However, therapists can be extremely defensive. I've had interactions with therapists and with psychiatrists that I would call downright abusive. And . . . the more highly credentialed they are, the more vicious they can become. Trust me. I've been there.

It may be that the professional treatment you've been getting has not been effective for you. That doesn't mean the professionals were not doing the best they could. It does not mean that you weren't doing the best you could. Sometimes "treatment," both pharmaceutical and psychotherapeutic fails to be very helpful. It has happened to me. That means you have to search elsewhere for answers. I'm not saying you should discontinue therapy or whatever help you are getting. I am saying: don't rely too heavily on it.

In life we have to experiment and try things that might feel scarey to try. This isn't going to happen, sitting in an office, talking with someone. I have struggled with depressive episodes all my life. In between episodes, I often feel very well. I live for those good intervals. Here's what works for me: During a depressive episode (which can last a long while,) I say to myself: Something about the way I am approaching life is not working for me. What can I do differently? What do I have the power to change? I don't accuse myself of not trying hard enough. Rarely is that the problem. More likely, I've been beating my head against a brick wall . . . knocking myself out, pushing real hard and getting nowhere.

Your experience with your divorce seems to be the crux of your problem, since you mention it. Somehow you've gotten stuck. I believe you have more power than you know you have. I believe we all do. That's not blind faith on my part. That's my lived experience. Somehow you've got to marshall up that power and focus it in some direction. You might be better able to figure that out, yourself, than the people you are turning to for counsel. I wish you luck and success.

[TheGal]

“The meaning of life is just to be alive. It is so plain and so obvious and so simple. And yet, everybody rushes around in a great panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves.” ~ Alan Watts

[pliepla]

Originally Posted by Rose76

Your experience with your divorce seems to be the crux of your problem, since you mention it. Somehow you've gotten stuck. I believe you have more power than you know you have. I believe we all do. That's not blind faith on my part. That's my lived experience. Somehow you've got to marshall up that power and focus it in some direction. You might be better able to figure that out, yourself, than the people you are turning to for counsel. I wish you luck and success.

I have had depressive episodes before. This is the longest, given that my marriage was quite toxic and I did not yet fully recover. I am studying and at times feel proud of what I achieve but nevertheless, I lost all belief that emotionally things will ever get better. And of course, that makes me doubt whether getting a degree can fundamentally change my life.

On top of that, I fell in love and it seems to be going nowhere (again). It is the confrontation with my unattrativeness and lack of perspectives on that front and my loneliness that make me lose all hope for a better future, regardless of what I might achieve otherwise.

For me, it has always been about having a perspective for life. I lost that when I was 19. I always reacted well to therapy because of the perspective it offered but this always resulted in therapists thinking that everything was solved and my reports about anxiety etc. were ignored. I did something called psychosocial revalidation and there this approach was very extreme. They took every hope for betterment away from me. Although I must admit that I now have a very good psychologist I still consistently come to the conclusion that all the hampering I had to put up with up to now have turned something that was probably not all too complex into a situation that can no longer be solved.

I continue because I have to. I survive but I don't live. And honestly, I want neither.

[TheGal]

Could you try helping other people? Maybe that would help you deal with your inner void?

[Rose76]

To have fallen in love, but feel it is going nowhere, sounds like a condition that would produce dysphoria in anyone. To regard yourself as "unattractive" would also make for a grim outlook. Truly, you are in a dark state of mind.

[pliepla]

Originally Posted by Rose76

To have fallen in love, but feel it is going nowhere, sounds like a condition that would produce dysphoria in anyone. To regard yourself as "unattractive" would also make for a grim outlook. Truly, you are in a dark state of mind.

I write about this in another thread (I can add a link if you ask me). Sometimes I believe certain elements or the story are positive and that it is mostly my insecurity.

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by pliepla

I write about this in another thread (I can add a link if you ask me). Sometimes I believe certain elements or the story are positive and that it is mostly my insecurity.

Add a link.

Insecurity can be worse than actual deficiency.

[pliepla]

Originally Posted by TheGal

Could you try helping other people? Maybe that would help you deal with your inner void?

I volunteer in an Oxfam bookshop. I used to be a trombocyte donor (I had to look that up so maybe I picked the wrong word) but my health does not allow that anymore.

[pliepla]

Originally Posted by Rose76

Add a link.

Insecurity can be worse than actual deficiency.

You have already found it but still, here it is:

http://https://mysupportforums.org/r...out-where.html

The longer I live with it, the more I realize that insecurity lies at the basis. It comes to the fore in it's most extreme form when I fall for somebody. And I am not sure whether I will ever overcome this.

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by pliepla

You have already found it but still, here it is:

http://https://mysupportforums.org/r...out-where.html

The longer I live with it, the more I realize that insecurity lies at the basis. It comes to the fore in it's most extreme form when I fall for somebody. And I am not sure whether I will ever overcome this.

Don't wait until you really "fall for" someone before you ask a gal for a date. Start dating on a casual basis women that you have only a mild interest in. Then you won't be under so much pressure. The stakes won't be so high. As an old song says, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."

[pliepla]

Originally Posted by Rose76

Don't wait until you really "fall for" someone before you ask a gal for a date. Start dating on a casual basis women that you have only a mild interest in. Then you won't be under so much pressure. The stakes won't be so high. As an old song says, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."

Isn't this settling for less? Won't I end up with somebody I don't like because 'it just happened' or because she was my last and only option? Won't I engage in a series of half relationships where I will never connect and always remain lonely and frustrated?

[TheGal]

Originally Posted by pliepla

I volunteer in an Oxfam bookshop. I used to be a trombocyte donor (I had to look that up so maybe I picked the wrong word) but my health does not allow that anymore.

Sorry about your health, first and foremost..

The bookstore is good but how about doing something "hands on" to balance out your intellect? If you don't mind my saying, you seem caught in your head. You are very intelligent, but that might be working against you in terms of overthinking.


Maybe consider something you can do with your hands, like building houses for Habitat for Humanity or cooking at a local soup kitchen.

Just a thought...

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by pliepla

Isn't this settling for less? Won't I end up with somebody I don't like because 'it just happened' or because she was my last and only option? Won't I engage in a series of half relationships where I will never connect and always remain lonely and frustrated?

So you don't want to settle "for less?" Less than what? Right now you got nothing.

I didn't say you have to "end up" with any one particular person. Who says that person will want to end up with you? Nobody's your "only option." Once you realize you really "don't like" someone, you move on. Just like that person can move on, if and when they decide they really aren't all that taken with you . . . like your ex-wife moved on.

I see now what your problem is. You're rather quick to reject . . . because you don't want to have to "settle." You've passed up opportunities with women because you were afraid they might be unworthy of your interest. You came to that judgement without even knowing them.

Many years ago, I met a guy at a night spot. I wasn't too impressed with him, but he was pleasant enough. He wanted to see me again. I was planning to move to another part of the country soon and did not want to get involved with anyone where I was. I decided I wouldn't mind killing some time with this guy. I figured he wasn't someone I was going to fall for, and he seemed easy going and not likely to get overly hung up on me. So I gave him my phone number. I expected we might go out together a time or two, and then I'ld be leaving town. Thirty years later I was still with him.

[pliepla]

Given my shyness and anxiety, I wont get the chance to try 30 women. Probably not even 3. This was probably curable 15 or 20 years ao but as I was functionning superficially, the entire mental healthcare system assumed there was not really a problem. That they had to ignore my accounts of anxiety, suicidal ideation, binge eating, hitting myself etc. apparently was not a problem. So there is this one option now ... maybe a next one in 4 years. Or 8. Or maybe there will never again be an option ...
It is not that I did not try. I have attempted to ask random women out - 3 or 4 on a day sometimes - as it seemed doable when there was no emotional attachment. They all declined. Every single one of them. And I only do this in my better days, when I do manage to put on a happy face and can engage in a normal conversation (needless to say, it is a quick way to spoil my mood for the week to come).
Isn't it natural that, if such situations come with such anxiety that you don't want to suffer through this for somebody that you wont' probably not stand to be around for more than a few hours a week, just because it is an option you should try?

And as for settling for less ... I have had a relationship that lasted for a year. She had fybromyalgia, was awake for 8 hours a day, resting about half of that time and the other 4 hours she spent mostly taking care of her heavily autistic son. I am a person who is interested in arts, jazz music, used to do a lot of sports and despite a cardiac problem (which probably diminished my chances even further) maintain an active lifestyle. I ended up going to bed at nine after having seen a disney movie for the third time. There was no room to listen to music. No chance of doing anything together except for sitting on the couch watching television. Even turning the page of a book made too much noise. I struggle to do my own household, but I did hers. And that has been my only opportunity the last 4 years so I give it all. I was spent when I eventually took the initiative to break up. And I still regret doing so; she did not make me happy but she was my only chance.

Should I not despair? What is there to hope for? What perspective do I have except for the theoretical consideration offered by doctors and therapists that I can indeed not knów my future? It is the best therapy can offer. After all this hard work - on my own part, therapists have mostly ignored my problems - of the last 20 years, I still have nothing to show for except that I am still trying. And apparently that should give me hope. Apparently, I do not have the right to despair over the lack of results. I don't see how the fact that I am still trying - I don't really like the idea of the other option - can be enough to keep on hoping, especially if all the energy I have spent has lead me to nothing.

And yes, I do know I have low self esteem and a very negative self image. I don't reject people. I give everybody who's interested a chance because there are so few chances for me. Or at least, there might be more but I just don't see them. I can't believe anybody could be interested in me and it is only when it is that obvious, when a woman takes the innitiative that I get an opportunity. In my experience, I have never rejected anyone because I never saw another person who took an interest in me. And maybe this one woman is all over me - probably not - but if she is, I will never believe it, I will never notice it.

[Rose76]

I know what you mean about the mental health system dismissing you because you seemed superficially alright. I got similarly responded to. I had a job, supported myself, looked clean, neat and well-nourished . . . had gotten a decent education . . . interacted appropriately with doctors and therapists. They didn't see much of a problem. It seemed to me that they only looked at one's level of functioning. What about one's internal level of distress? It seemed to me they didn't care about that.

Still, I did get attention from mental health professionals . . . because I was willing to pay for it. I purchased their time to the tune of thousands of dollars. I did "therapy" to death. I can't say it ever changed anything for me. I'm not "cured." I still have episodes of painful depression. I told them that I accepted that I was not "curable." My goal became quite modest. I said that I just wanted the episodes to be less frequent and of shorter duration. I was put on drug after drug (anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, anti-convulsants, anxiolytics, hypnotics, dopamine agonists and you name it.) I was told I had treatment resistant depression and offered electro-convulsive therapy - shock treatments. (Those I declined.) I gave up on it mostly, except for one tricyclic anti-depressant that does make some difference.

At one point, I entered into a Partial Hospitalization Program. I went to it 6 hours a day for 4 days a week. The professionals there didn't help me, but the program wasn't a total waste. My peers in the program helped me. My peers started telling me that I had an attitude problem. I tended to argue and debate a lot. We had these classes conducted by the psychiatrist and by the clinical social worker. I tended to disagree with whoever was presenting a class. My peers told me they were sick of listening to me snd my intellectual arguments. It was painful to hear that. But they did show me some warmth. They told me I was my own worst enemy. They told me I needed to shut-up more and just take what I valued out of the program and leave the rest. That feedback from my peers had an impact. For the first time in my life, I saw how my attitude came across to others. It dawned on me that I'ld been making myself obnoxious to those around me.
That's hard to face. I almost left the program out of embarrassment. Instead I stayed. I faced up to the realization that a lot of my chronic loneliness was due to my tendency to alienate others. I'm still not cured. But I keep working on changing my approach to life.

Being chronically depressed means a person has an approach to life that is not working for them.