[Wants2Fly]

Good morning, all --

This morning,, I became aware of how much LACK OF SELF-CONFIDENCE is the underlying root of a lot of my depression, and how many triggers relate to that issue.

For those of you who are busy and can't read a long post, I'm going to start with my Big Fat Questions, and then I'll prose on a bit for those who have time or interest to read more.

Big Fat Question #1: How do we develop self-confidence? Any reading? Any tips from your T's? Things that have worked for you?

Big Fat Question #2: How do we maintain self-confidence when a number of people in our life have said very ugly things to us? In my case, the only 3 men in my life.

Last week, I found online info that distinguises between SELF-ESTEEM and SELF-CONFIDENCE. Self-esteem is valuing oneself. Self-confidence is behaviors that reflect self-esteem.

I have a certain amount of self-esteem. I believe that I am a good person. I do my best not to harm others, but I will protect myself from perceived threats -- and sometimes my perceptions are paranoid and off.

Confidence is a real problem. The phrase "hiding your light under a bushel" is an advice theme throughout my life.

Self-confidence seems like some magical quality that a Good Fairy Godmother bestows at one's christening, or doesn't. It is the toothpaste white smile of the always-laughing cheerleaders, and the bonhomie of the sales person who wins all the awards, and the minister who always knows the right thing to say. It is some ease for being with people, and being liked and loved, that we who live with our noses pressed to the glass of life long for. How do I get this magical thing called self-confidence? Any books, advice, experience?

The second part of my ramblings are my dark secrets. Haven 't talked w/new T about it. Don't want to go on anymore about it with friends who've heard it already. But I am carrying this crap around with me. All of it relates to negative feedback from males -- the only 3 males with whom I've had any significant contact.

1. My relationship with P, the man I lived with for 15 years

After P. called from California May 5, 2003, to say, "It's over, my feelings have changed," I couldn't believe it. We hadn't been fighting.

I suppose there were signs, but I was going through a grueling tenure review and a year of medical tests, and I missed the signs. We were never a lovey-dovey kinda couple, and he was on the road as a trucker most of the time.

After 5 days, I called him, and I begged him to tell me why he was doing this. He said, "It's because you're so filled with hate and anger and bitterness that I can't even go out with you in public."

I have talked at length about this with 3 close friends, 2 therapists, one psychiatirst, one spiritual mentor in her 80s who has known me for 20 years, and partridge in a pear tree. My mom said, "Well, you can be snippy, but angry and bitter, no I can't say that about you." My friend M, standing in the aisle and saying "Yoohoo" to get a waiter's attention, said, "What does he mean? Are you rude to waiters?"

Mom also said caustically, "Well, it sure took him long enough to find out."

I cried and cried to think that this was P's last and final impression of me, and why had he kept his true feelings about me a secret for so long? I kept asking my T to talk about my hate and anger so I could come to terms with it, and she always refused. She asked me why I put so much stock in what P had said. I said, there must be some truth to it that I can use to improve. My T said -- I'd put some stock in what P said if he hadn't left when you got sick and lost your job. But that makes everything that he said a lie he told himself so that he could look in the mirror in the morning.

But I carry P's words with me -- that I am filled with hate and anger and bitterness and have business being out in public, and no matter how many people tell me it taint true, I've got to know inside me that that it's not true -- and I don't. How can I? I used to call P "my angel." I thought he was the "best person I ever met." We were a team for 15 years. How can I trust what onlookers say, compared with what the man who was my life partner has said?

The other mean thing P said was that I was "forcing him into a marriage" he "didn't want." I asked him if he would marry me so I'd have health insurance to cover some tests that are running $2K a few times a year for screenings that can potentially save my life if the disease gets worse in ways that affect internal organs. So by running away when he did, the message is, "I'd rather that you die than marry me." I stuck with him went he went through depression; kept us going on a tiny, poverty level teaching assistant's pay; got him into free therapy when he was too far gone to help himself. My college mentor told me outright to leave him, he was using me. My T asked me to discuss it, and I refused. He was my angel. And when my angel's actions say, "I'd rather let you die than marry you," when they say, "You were good enough to live with for 15 years, but now that you're sick and don't have a good job, you're not good enoug to marry," it hurts in ways that I am having a hard time getting over.

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2. Relationship with ex-husband

I tried to get back with my ex-husband, with whom I hadn't talked in 15 years, bec. I've always loved him passionately, but he is improvident and doesn't like to work, and is a sex addict, and I couldn't live like that anymore.

And I love him so much that in order to have a relationship with P, I had to cut out all contact with him. During the 12 years during which T and I were friends after our divorce, I did not have a stable, LT relationship with any other man, bec. T fills my heart and thoughts, and no man every compared favorably with him, despite T's own enormous dysfunctions.

But T understands suicidal depression, esp. our sucidal depressions, better than anyone I know, and I sought some kindness from him.

Within the first 15 minutes of our phone call, he said, "You know I still love you. It's just that there's some people you can't live with." He insisted that I come to Portland to visit him, bec. I was going to CA to see other friends and a religious retreat.

He didn't have a girlfriend -- he's had at least 7 live-in relationships in the 30 years I've known him, including 3 wives (I'm #2). This is a man who can't live without woman, yet has never had a relationship that lasted longer than 5 years.

While on religious retreat, I came to terms with my part in our breakup, something I'd never faced before. Started with a letter of apology, went on to a love letter, then to request to try again. Meanwhile, he'd decided to go live with a woman he'd known 3-5 weeks -- but didn't have the honesty to tell me.

When he finally did write to me, he said that our relationship had been all about the sex -- reducing my outpouring of love to nothing. Friends who know this relationship (we were a well-known "Power Couple" in the city where we were married) say this simply isn't true -- he was as passionately in love with me as I with him. T's kiss-off letter arrived, to the day, on what would have been our 30th wedding anniversary, in an especially cruel twist of fate.

When I was giving away a lot of my possessions when I had to sell the house, I came upon an object that a famous person gave us for our wedding. I sent it to him. I got an email that said, "Leave me the f*** alone." I was still in a suicidal part of my depression, and so devastated that I fell off the chair where I was on the computer and started sobbing.

So that's the two men who I've loved best who have told me that I'm nothing -- a sex toy, a paycheck, better be healthy or I'm worth zero.

3. Relationship with my brother

My brother believes that P had good reasons for T to leave me. My mother says that B talks about P "as if he's a god." T trained B to be a long-haul trucker, so B is grateful that for the first time in his life (in his 50s, too), he has a job he likes and makes good money. I also think B doesn't have any close male friends, having worked as an assistant nurse for the past 15 years or so. B rode in T's truck for 6 months for his training, eating and sleeping in the bunks, so they bonded.

Just before having to sell the house, I was especially suicidal, and I started calling P, who doesn't answer my calls, and leaving phone messages about how grief-stricken I was. I just wanted him to know the pain he caused. Dumb, I know. I also know that P takes suicide seriously, bec. that's how his father died, and he found the body.

So P called my mother, who is in her 80s and not in good shape. And she was very upset, but didn't know what to do, and called my brother left the message on my answering machine saying, "Kill yourself. Just go ahead, do it." He blamed me for upsetting my mother -- instead of P who never cared enough about my life to have a few phone numbers of friends to intervene, whilst I've got a bunch of numbers of his friends.

My brother's voice was so filled with hate, and his message so hate-filled, that I couldn't even listen to the whole thing, and erased it, and had to call a telephone crisis line that evening. So, there you have it. THE ONLY MEN in my life are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT that I shouldn't be allowed to walk the face of the earth, that I should just kill myself, or die of a disease that could be treated, but just leave them the F*** alone.

This hurts so much. No matter how many people tell me that THESE MEN ARE THE ONES WITH PROBLEMS, I can't seem to escape the idea that there is something major WRONG WITH ME AS A HUMAN BEING, and I just want to fix it and be normal -- whatever that is -- and reasonably happy, or at least not in a depression hell, always self-critical, and fearful of what the future holds for me.

Sorry to write so long. I guess I had to get this all out onto a public forum.

In AA, some people say, "We are only as sick as our secrets," and mine is that men think I am a worthless piece of s***.

And that's more than enuf.

[dexter]

I also struggle very much with self-confidence/self-esteem.

I've never had any self confidence. I was never sure about self esteem. As I grew I gathered some self esteem (didn't "work" on that, it just came as I matured) but still no self confidence. I finally got self confidence as I promoted through work. I was promoted into jobs that I feared terribly that I wouldn't be able to handle, although logically I knew I was capable of learning and functioning enough to do more than well. IOW I had the self esteem (internal) but not the self confidence (external) or maybe that's the other way around... I had the confidence that I could do the job but not the self esteem to trust my confidence... make sense?

I really just forced myself to look back at my progress and to continue to push myself forward in those areas I was confident in. This is one reason that losing my previous job is still such a huge trigger for me... I built up so much confidence there, and although the quality of my work was never in question, my ability to "keep it together" while doing that is shot.

I have two comments that may relate to your questions. First of all, depression is a HUGE issue when dealing with self esteem and self confidence, as it is with every other subjective issue conserning our self worth. That makes it even more of an uphill battle to find that self-confidence. Not to say you can't have it or shouldn't work for it... quite the opposite because I think the two go hand-in-hand toward supporting each other... the equation can work both ways: leaving depression can help your self confidence, and building self confidence may help relieve depression.

But do keep in mind when you worry about how hard it is to find your self confidence, that a lot of that difficulty is the result of depression. The difficulty is not a sign of a character weakness, nor especially not a sign that there is just no confidence to be found. It is just a little more hidden, a bit harder to reach, because of all the veils and barriers that depression throws in the way. Know it is there, and know that it is worth pursuing.

The second thing you already know... you don't have to seek out people who will give you a better opinion of yourself, you have to dump the people who are keeping you tied back from realizing your true worth. You know that their criticism is coming from their own internal problems... but with depression it is incredibly hard to make that leap from "knowing" to "believing". Ultimately the sign of self confidence will be that it doesn't matter what others opinions are or what they say. Hopefully you can get some specific skills and recommendations from others here to help move forward toward that. I would think that it will be much harder though if you always have these people "reminding" you of how "bad" you are, giving weight to depressions tendency to invent such negative thoughts in the first place. I know you can't cut them out of your life, but finding other people, hopefully people without such issues, will give some balance. If you seem to keep finding people who reinforce negative things you may need to make an effort to start looking in other places. Have you been to a support group for depression or any other type of support group? Talking with others, objective strangers who may become friends as well, may help you find a better perspective, and participating in the group discussion may be a natural confidence builder as well.

Good luck, I know it is a difficult struggle, but like I say with quite a lot of things here, recognizing that it is an issue and looking for ways to resolve it is probably the biggest step toward a solution.

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--http://www.idexter.com

[Maya]

Dexter is right - depression robs you of your ability to feel self-confident and to have self-esteem. And it is difficult to get around how they are bound together. In my case it has taken an outstanding T combined with medications that work. I literally have learned how to live - how to respond to people - how to do things most folks learn as kids to relate in various relationships from my T. He is more than just a T - he is a mentor and a teacher. One of the first things he worked on with me was to re-unite me with my spiritual self (and I am not talking about religion necessarily). We all have a spiritual self that can help us with our fight over depression and anxiety and feelings of unworthiness. My feeling was of not deserving to live came from me - not from anyone else - yet, I knew I performed well at work, have a responsible job with 17 employees me, depending on me but, although I functioned in that arena effectively enough to get by, I still did not want to live or feel I deserved to live. I am better now, thanks to the meditation I have learned, the medications that I must take on schedule in order to continue functioning, and a T who I see at least once a week and almost call in between appointments for a little reassurance that I can handle the situation I am in - whatever it is. So, you have to get the therapy you need - tell the therapist everything. If you hold back you cannot be helped. You need the professional help of someone who knows how to build your self-confidence and allow your own self-esteem to grow as he (or she) treats the disease. Remember, it is a disease. It is a chemical imbalance in your brain - you are not crazy or insane - you just need help, like most of us here on this forum do. Good luck to you - we all are with you through this.

The vision of your goodness will sustain me through the cold
Take my hand now to remember when you find yourself alone
You are never alone… (John Denver)
Mars

[wisewoman]

Hi wants to Fly. I was deeply touched by your post. It seems that we do rely on others to tell us our self worth. My doc is actually really good at knowing this and asks me frequently whyit matters what others think. In great part it is because of severe abuse and neglect and wanting to be safe. However, we all want to be loved and cared for. You have gotten it from all sides, work, love, family. No wonder you are struggling. I have a job that is very important to me but about a year ago I made a really poor choice and it bit me in the butt work wise and suddenly what I felt I was really good at was so threatened. My personhood was threatened. I don't have a magic wand, I don't know how you develop self confidence. I do know that to live closly with ones values and to care for yourself throughout is most important. By living ones values we are touching our souls in a deep way every day. By caring for yourself, taking meds, eating healthy, whatever is for you we start to feel like we are valuable and deserve the care and attention we put into ourselves. Lastly, by having friends who know us well and can reflect us back we can see who we are in the world. Remember each person has their own tinted glass to look from so we have to weigh it. These men have their own issues and your brother would get a good kick in the pants if i knew him. We all carry our baggage. I also want to share with you that in addition to my T with whom I have had a long term relationship, I also have professional colleagues who know my work and with whom I can share. But the most surprising and perhaps the biggest gift is I have been seeing a massage therapist for about 4 years since my son was diagnosed with cancer. (he's well now so no worries please) A friend gave me a gift certificate and I kept going back. With this woman my own age I feel like she helps me connect to myself and feel cared for in a way that words can't touch. In a preverbal sense I think. I mention this because it has helped me feel worth, to have this person see my blubber and all of my pain and continue to treat me with love and respect. In fact, when I was recently very severely depressed it was with her that I realized it as her touch made me release the pain some and I knew I was in deep trouble with depression. Our worth is not measured by our lovers but by the love we leave behind. Live each day with love and reaching out to care for those around you. Loving makes us worthy. We just need to believe it.

[Wants2Fly]

All of these posts are so beautiful -- so caring -- so wise, I am overwhelmed with gratitude. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Wants2Fly]

If I have said or implied that the men are all at fault in the things that happened,, I did not mean to. The reason I feel so much pain about these things, and that they undermine my confidence so, is that in a deep way, I think I must be very, very wrong in some way. In the case of P, the man who left last spring, he was a good and honorable man, so far as I knew. My mother cried when I told her he was gone; for months, she would comment, "I still can't believe P. would do something like this."

Midlife crisis. Another woman. Simply unable to cope with a woman who got sick and ruined our Master Plan. Who knows? In the end, it doesn't matter.

I had a "date" with a nice man, 14 years older than I, who I met through an internet personals. We get along great. But I got off on some tangent, started talking about P, and the anger in my voice was so obvious, I had to stop and say, I don't want this anger anymore. I want to be free of it.

I pray that God will remove it, and sometimes I think it is gone, that I moved on, and it comes spilling on again. I know there are people here coping with things that can cause lasting anger -- a child that died, loss of homes, and jobs, and mates, incurable illness, barely tolerable pain.

At the end of our time together, this courtly man said -- not at all in a critical way -- you've got to do something with that anger. Talk with your T about it. It's good that you see it's there and want to get rid of it -- you're halfway there. Don't be like my first wife who's still mad at me after 30 years.

Lordy, I don't want to be that way.

I feel ashamed that I am a woman who is shunned by her ex-mate, her ex-husband and her brother.

I feel ashamed of showing my anger.

I feel ashamed of even having to admit to these things, instead of keeping them locked very tightly in a box in my mind and heart.

Somebody, please, put me back on my pedestal, so I can resume being perfect again. ;-)

[Wants2Fly]

I read all these posts again this morning. They are very helpful. I think I will be returning to this thread to reread them again and again. I appreciate the feedback. Thank you.

[jetblackaura]

I have problems with my self-confidence...except I used to be really confident and outgoing, very comfortable in social situations etc etc. But now i'm none of the above.. i have lost all my self confidence and i don't know why..it's like it just flew out the window one day.

I agree that you should forget these men that were in your life, but i know that it is ALOT easier said than done...infact I'd think it's almost impossible to forget but you should try and forget the pain they've caused you...talk to your T about them I'm sure they can help you get your self-confidence back!!

Good luck xx

[Wants2Fly]

Your reply made me giggle a ittle: "I'm sure you can get your self-confidence back."

A scene from the Wizard of Oz flew through my mind, with Dorothy telling the Tin Man that, of course, the Wizard could give him a heart.

Don't take this the wrong way -- It was delightful thought!

[jetblackaura]

I wasnt sure of whether to put that or not, cause i though it sounded kinda funny!!

But i couldn't think of any other way to put it!

Glad i made you giggle xx

[Wants2Fly]

I talked with my T today, who thankfully, is a man, bec. I need male energy to balance my life right now. As was suggested I should herein. Somehow the secrets about why I feel so bad about who I am didn't seem so awful once they were spoken outloud.

He said things I've heard before -- What happened with these men is *their* baggage, not yours. Don't make it yours.

Second, that I had a right to feel very angry with Paul (of course, there's a back story about how I stuck with him when times were hard for him that I haven't posted here). But it's true as well that I have to get rid of it bec. it hurts me, not him.

He suggested allowing myself to feel the anger and to know that it is justified, and to write about it, for weeks if necessary, and then burn what I've written to release it. He said we could try some role playing in the future about it.

Getting rid of anger is as mysterious as gaining confidence. Where do these emotions come from? Where do they go after we release them? It is all such a mystery.