[Chcklets]

I'm writting here because this is an ugly topic and I am hoping someone can offer some new perspectives on my situation. From the reading I've done many many people are facing simliar issues, but it is a very hard thing to talk about. I've been circling around the same arguments for the last 4 days. This will probably be a long post - there is just too much going on.

First - some background. My husband and I have been married for almost 10 years, we have a 6 year old daughter. During this time he as battled an addiction to pornography - it has been our struggle. I found it hurtful and difficult but we have been very commited to making this marrige work.

About 3 years ago I found some really, really awfull stuff on his computer, some of it involving childeren. I was disgusted and horrified and my very first reaction was take my daughter and leave. Instead, because I am very very commited to our relationship and because this was the first time I'd seen anythign like this, and because I believe God can heal all things, and childeren need both parents, I decided to try and stay and get counselling. I said at that time that if it did not stop right then I would take daughter and leave, I would not allow that in my family. I had never, ever even hinted at leaving so this was huge for both of us.
So we worked through a counselling program and we prayed and finally (I thought) named the problem, honestly expressed the issue, and found a path back from that horrible edge. This was 3 years ago.

He has struggled since then, occasionaly, with regular (not horrible) porn and things like that. And I have forgave and he's gotten "back on the wagon" each time. But each time it hurt. Then came last weekend. I found more things on the computer (because I'm the porn-cop at my house). This time the subject matter was even more disturbing. It wasn't pictures but was stories downloaded from the internet, all involving incest and young childeren. I was - as you can imagine - absolulty horrified. It was like a nightmare. It is like a nightmare.

When I confronnted him he broke down and admitted he needed seriouse help to deal with the underlying issues. He understood that I can't trust my daughter with him. He swears he never touched her, and I believe him. I have to believe him. But this is an ugly horrible path he's on and I can't put her in any danger. I want to support him in this struggle, I know he is in huge pain and wants to change. But my mom instinct is totally at war with the wife thing. So I packed up daughter and I left. I said I needed to think - needed some time to understand if there is a way back from this. But I just dont' see how.

I have been gone for 4 days now.
He has contacted a therapist and talked to some men from our church. He is trying to get the help he needs.
I haven't spoken to him. My daughter thinks we are having a vacation at Grandma's. And I still don't see a way back from this. How can ever, every trust him around her? Leaving all thoughts of my happiness and trust asside - how can I ever risk her ? How could I ever forgive myself if he does the counseling and I go back and then something happens to her?
But it's not black and white, of course. I love him - and the marriage was mostly good with the exception of this horrible ugly part - and he's been a good dad - he and my daughter have always been very close. I have never had a suspicion that there was any inappropriate behavoir.

But now I'll always know the risk is there - and as a mother I think there is no way at all I can risk it. But I know if we divorce this will hurt her hugely. And I have no idea how to explain. And there's the whole visitation issue. I desperatly want her to have a real, healthy relationship with her father, but I don't know how. I don't know if there is any hope of reconciliation. I left for a few days but it felt like it was final. It felt like good bye.

So after that novel I've just written - it's not black and white, is it? Thoughts and fantasies are not actions. People can be healed and can change. Forgiveness and trust can happen. But so can mistakes, and failure. And the risk is huge, for her, for him, for me. Divorce will hurt all of us. Maybe staying will hurt all of us worse. And so it's been 4 days and the choice is still muddied. I see no path back, and I see no path forward. Any thoughts / observations / perspectives are welcome.

[lynn P.]

((((Chcklets))))) - my heart goes out to you with this very difficult situation. I think you did the right thing with leaving and I understand all the confusing feelings. Your husband needs specific serious therapy for his addiction and if he doesn't get it, he'll likely go back. Having child pornography on his computer is a crime - he could get arrested. I'm wondering if getting arrested would prompt him to get the serious help he needs. I think the lure of pornography is much stronger than the desire to quit.

I don't blame you for not trusting him and I think he should only have supervised visits. I don't mean to frighten you, but the police could question anyone living in the house as well. I'm sorry you're in the position.

[pachyderm]

I don't see how the police would "arrest anyone living in the house" -- especially if the porn is on his computer. I agree with lynn that probably very specific therapy is needed for this kind of problem, and I think it would be a good idea to try to get the best of that.

[lynn P.]

If the police were to track the pornography, they would have to question all the adults in the house. I once saw on the news they arrested the man of the house, but it was actually the teenage son. I'm not trying to scare Chcklets, just stating what could happen. I think it's good you're reaching out for help

All i can tell you is if he can cross this line ...in his head...its a thin line between him and the child.My mom stayed with a man who did...things....for the sake of his kids from a previous marriageI resent it horribly.You are the only defense this child has,and I feel he has crossed the largest trust boundary ever.If you wouldn't leave for this what would you leave for?My heart says staying ...or allowing any contact outside a guarded visit is roulette and has the potential to create a psychologically bruised child at the least.But that is me.

[Chcklets]

Thank you all for your responses so far. This is such a tough topic to speak with anyone about - I appriciate the additional perspectives. My head is also telling me there's just no way to make this safe. It feels a bit more difficult because I have some subtle pressure from my family, whom I am very close to, about not making any hasty decisions, and not giving up right away. I've got an appointment with a counseler in a couple of days, I am hoping I can maybe get a bit of clarity from an outside source then too, but this is also helpful. So thanks everyone.

[lynn P.]

Originally Posted by Chcklets

Thank you all for your responses so far. This is such a tough topic to speak with anyone about - I appriciate the additional perspectives. My head is also telling me there's just no way to make this safe. It feels a bit more difficult because I have some subtle pressure from my family, whom I am very close to, about not making any hasty decisions, and not giving up right away. I've got an appointment with a counseler in a couple of days, I am hoping I can maybe get a bit of clarity from an outside source then too, but this is also helpful. So thanks everyone.

I happy you responded back - I was worried my response scared you away. As you said this is a touchy issue and child pornography makes me angry. You must feel awful and I feel sorry this is happening to your family. You're very courageous for leaving and taking a stand. You're also wise in speaking with a counselor.

[eskielover]

I know the desire to make the marriage work.....as that is an important commitment but there are many things that are a cause for divorce. One of those things is adultary.....which even though not active, porn is a form of that even though inactive & not with a specific person.

I am glad you got out of there with your daughter. I think that was a very wise & brave thing that you did & definitely the right thing to do. The damage that your daughter could possibly go through if he chose to act on his fantasies, is beyond being even remotely acceptable.

I am sure that family pressure to stay & work things out is strong. I think that churches are becoming more & more aware of the social issues that are going on & are starting to take the right stand that is not always against the wife, trying to make her feel like staying is the only right thing. Porn is one thing.....but child pron goes so far beyond that.

Hope your counselor will give you some good sound advice or at least help you walk through your thoughts in a way that you will be able to do what is right for your daughter.

[jenkins09]

You need to protect your child. He has shown you twice that he has these sexual urges related to kids. I can understand your Christian views regarding marriage, I feel the same way. I think there is a certain point at which you must say, enough.

God says divorce is something we can do if there is infidelity. He has (mentally) and physically cheated on you many times. I would go to therapy yourself and really, really talk to a qualified counselor, not just your pastor about this.

I was sexually abused for years and it made my life hell, as much as you want to make your marriage work, do not put your child in harms way. Sexual predators do not change, they talk a good game, but those urges remain in them.

You have a tough decision to make. Listen to your gut.

[Rhiannonsmoon]

Chklets,

Stay out of there, believe me! LynnP is right, all adults will be held responsible for any porn in the house and you can't honestly say you didn't know it was there. It's an offence not to report it.

You can't trust this man, I am sorry and I am not judging I am just telling you how it is. You have no idea the problem this is to society.

If he sees a child naked, in the bath, semi naked to a pedophile it is all the same and they will blame the child half the time, while being emphatic that they love children and don't see what they do as harmful.

Please, please don't take your daughter back there. just don't she is too important to take a chance on. And you need to get real with your husband. He needs to be in a sex offender program because just owning child porn is an offence. And the only way children are remotely safe is if these people are registered offenders, even then it is difficult to protect them.

This isn't just about your daughter Chklets, it's about other peoples children as well,

I offer you my support and I truly hope your husband gets help, but you can't take a chance here any more,

Rhiannon

And with all due respect, God says nothing, the people who wrote the bible said it, and their thinking is over 2000 years old

Just a reminder with loving hugs everyone - lets not turn any of this incredibly difficult situation into any sort of religious debate. I know it becomes difficult when one feels so strongly about the topic, and gosh knows this is one of the hardest topics to talk about(but smething that NEEDS to always be communicated about). Unfortunately for this reason, we do not allow any specific religious debate or even talk on the forums. Everyones faith is there own and our thoughts on it are our opinions, neither right nor wrong - just personal to that very individual. Am not saying this angrily at all! just I have seen where religious debate has caused alot of trauma online due to differing opinions.

Chklets,

Many, MANY hugs to you and your daughter. I want to speak to you for a second from two veiwpoints.

The first is that of someone who was sexually abused by their father. This occured with me over the course of about 12 years, from as young as I could remember until I finally left and disclosed.

You are completely right to remove your daughter from his current presence. It is definetly more important than we beleive for a daughter to have a relationship with her father, however, it is even MORE important for your daughter to never have to experience sexual abuse of ANY kind - even if that is just him looking at her undressed. It is scientifically (psychologically?) proven that sex abuse does infinite amounts of damage to people. I truly think we do not even know the extent of the damage it causes, and that damage is life-long, even with therapy and healing. Especially with her being at the age where she is probably beginning to struggle with her individuality, and learning to be independent. She needs all of your support and more!

You may know this stuff already, but I think it would be a good idea to remind you of the sort of emotional damage that could occur - perhaps this will help you to feel more solid in your decision to remove yourselves from the situation for now(and perhaps for good, if that's what needs to happen). You can take a search on Google for Consequences of sexual abuse in Father abused women.(note: i realize this hasn't occurred yet in your situation, but again I think reading this will help you form a stronger feeling about your decision.

From personal experience, my abuse caused me to become very promiscuous. It also caused severe anxiety, PTSD, Borderline Personality Disorder, and severe panic disorder as well as mild dissociative identity disorder. I became addicted to drugs, and pretty much everything else that you can drown your reality in. I am still to this day, having a difficult time, and in fact due to depression and anxiety, lost my own child to foster care.. he is still in care - I am working to regain custody. I did not abuse him, but the combination of mental and physical illness I suffer led me to not be able to keep up with his care. Most of my problem was housework.

I'll be back to write more later. Much love.

[Perna]

I don't believe it is black and white, I admire your ability to write your last paragraph.

I would stay vacationing at Grandma's for awhile, maybe find my own therapist to help me deal with this huge issue. I find it odd that he would have porn where you could find it, knowing you're the porn police? It's like he wants to get caught. I don't think he has or will abuse his daughter, I think he is into porn, not "reality", kind of like you or I might dream of winning the lottery; yes it's possible but the probability is too high for me to even spend any time thinking about and yet I sometimes take paper and pencil and plan what I would do with the money.

I would certainly not leave your daughter in her father's care, alone, until she can understand completely about other people seeing/touching her inappropriately and knows she can and "should" tell you if that ever happens, if you are not there and anyone, especially a man (and include Daddy in there, just because he's a man and she is going to be a woman), asks to see her without clothes or touches her too personally.

It does not sound like your husband is violent at all and if you don't feel he would force your daughter to do something your daughter didn't like, I think you can inoculate your daughter and "train" her it is okay to tell you if she is ever uncomfortable with yours, your husband's or anyone else's touch.

[Rhiannonsmoon]

((((((((Rainbowzz))))))))

[AprilAyla]

Wow, what an ugly situation to be in! (((hugs))). I'm not sure if it is the same with porn addicts as with actual pedophiles, but I do know that there is no cure for pedophilia. They can go to counseling, they can take meds, they can even be castrated, but it still will not stop them. I don't know if you can cure a person with a porn addiction, but the line between the two is SOOOO thin. Since you seem to be relatively sure he did not touch your daughter, does he have "access" to any other children? Neighbors, friends, family? I know at the moment you have yourself and your daughter to worry about, but if you have even an inkling that he may have touched some other child, I believe it is your moral obligation to protect these other children as well as report him to the police. At the very least, if there are other children around, speak to their parents.

I feel for you. My first husband was a porn addict, but not children. He had other "fetishes". Which led to cheating, of course, which amongh other things led to our divorce.

I'm so glad that your daughter has a safe place with you. I wish you all the best. Stay strong.

[imatter2]

I want to chime in here as well - I was not a sexually abused child in the sense most think of when they hear the term - but, my father did occasionally touch me in ways that made me uncomfortable. Please understand, never in inappropriate places! But just the way of his touch or the look in his eyes was enough to make me feel icky inside and MY line of comfort was crossed. Not being touched in a sexual zone does not mean there aren't lasting negative feelings being created in other ways. Nearly 20 years later I still will occasionally flash back to one instance in particular sometimes when discussing this type of subject. I absolutely and completely do not believe my father ever had any intention to make me uncomfortable, nevertheless I was uncomfortable. But conditioned to believe by family and society that because the touch wasn't in my "private areas" then it wasn't wrong and so I never told anyone. In fact, this is the first time i've spoken of it really ever, to be frank. My mother actively and repeatedly reinforced appropriate touching, "erogenous zones" that no one should be allowed to touch, that I could come to her with ANYTHING - yet no one managed to mention that I could have a personal and individual comfort level and if that was crossed, then that counted too. Nevermind mentioning that oh, yeah, Dad is included in the list of "anyone" that can't touch without permission! I don't think it occurred to anyone, least of all me that if Daddy did it, it could still be wrong.

I say this to hopefully reinforce that just because you have not had the feeling that anything inappropriate has happened between your husband and your daughter, doesn't mean a thing. He may not have done anything that, again, would be "traditionally" associated with abuse - that does not mean he hasn't done something that he or you or any other adult might consider to be insignificant, that hasn't caused her to be uncomfortable. Or that he wouldn't do something "insignificant" in the future.

Listen to your HEAD on this one, not your HEART. Your HEAD is telling you to go - go. Your HEART is leading you down the wrong path on this one, I'm afraid.

And finally, as others have said, even owning child pornography of any kind, picture or story, is a CRIME. Not reporting a CRIME is a CRIME in and of itself therefore if you do not take steps here you are just as guilty as he is. And to a pedophile, every child is "fair game," not just your daughter, so please, keep my sons, and my niece, and my sunday school class of preschoolers, in your mind too as you make this decision!