[Atypical_Disaster]

I'm extremely frustrated at the sheer lack of resources there are for dealing with NPD. It's always about nons talking about how horrible narcissists are. There are no resources for people who actually HAVE the disorder. I've looked and looked and I've found nothing. It seems like everyone just assumes that people with NPD never become self-aware and therefore never change.

It's maddeningly annoying to go to therapist after therapist, trying to get help for this disorder only to be told some variation of, "well since you're aware of your narcissism you can't really have the disorder." Excuse me?

That's like telling someone with depression that since they know they have depression then they don't really have it.

I'm sick of trying therapy only to run into "therapists" who refuse to do their ****ing jobs. Why do I even bother? Hahahaha, the more I look into trying to get help the more it looks like a complete waste of time.

I get it, self-awareness and NPD together is kind of a rarity but it's not out of the question entirely. I'm officially diagnosed with NPD and still I run into this issue with therapists in particular who don't really want to engage with the fact that I have the disorder AND I'm aware of it AND I actually would like some help.

Has anyone else run into this issue? If so, how did you deal with it?

[here today]

I've never been diagnosed with NPD -- most recently was diagnosed with PDNOS and I believe that I could have been diagnosed with OCPD 20 years or so ago had they been diagnosing PD's then.

I started looking in a university library 20 years or so ago to try to find out what might be behind my continuing dysthymia which did not respond to therapy. I came upon books about "narcissism" and felt horrified -- but continued the research as much as I was able, and developed a tolerance.

So -- I'm pretty aware now of my PD characteristics. Showed one T an article by Sam Vaknin back in about 2001 and said that I felt like that. She replied "Why do you read stuff like that?" Eventually I became extremely frustrated, she wasn't understanding me, etc. and she said something at which I erupted. "Now do you believe I have a personality disorder?" I asked. "Yes," she replied, "I thought you were better than that." I left.

Translation -- I'd been trying to explain my issues, whatever they were, and get some help with them. She dismissed my direct suggestion -- the Sam Vaknin article, and then shamed me when my behavior demonstrated the problem directly. How does a profession get away with this kind of stuff? Because the people who observe it are . . . people with personality disorders.

My current T (4 years now) is a specialist in trauma. We've pretty well dealt with that, now focusing on the "traumatized self" or "wounded narcissism".

Really, really sucks. It's frequently been really, really painful. But I believe it IS possible to "get well" or close to it. Why do I believe that? Why have I continued despite the harrowing experiences with failed therapies? Why do I continue to do this at 66 years old? Because, what else is there to do? (Also maybe obsessiveness, but wtf.)

Maybe you'd like to check out a therapist who specializes in Heinz Kohut's "Self" psychology? He was an expert on narcissism, wrote books back in the 1970's.

Good luck and please keep posting. I'll be interested in what you find that helps or doesn't. Plus, I don't know any better way right now to let "the world" out there know what we're up against. I believe we can get "well" or at least a whole lot "better", and that there have to be enough of us who do that to help change attitudes and develop and strengthen effective treatments.

[lonely43]

I been diagnosed with this disorder and I'm like you do not know much about it but I am still hopeful in finding some research will share when I find some hang in there I am here if you want to talk

[lonely43]

I am like you have this and don't know much about it but am still doing research when I find some more I will share and I am always here if you need to talk

[Mattmx]

I think a lot of the problem is the "cluster b" personality disorders are a gray area in psychology and not too much really is known about them

Share something I saw not too long ago:
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
One of the few conditions where the patient is left alone and everyone else is treated.

Talk about hitting the nail on the head!!!
As most of you I too feel as if I wasted a year of my time in therapy. Obviously there are specialists somewhere out there but when you get involved with the ones who cannot understand it is very exhausting. Making the search or effort nearly impossible to move ahead to find that "specialist" who understands and can really make a difference. I've been out of therapy for many months now and find that I can really try harder on reflecting on whats needed rather than the circles my last two therapists made my mind travel on. I am diagnosed NPD, INTJ and a gemini so to sum it all up my mind is a mess. I am learning or at least working on maintaining a "I don't care about what anyone views me as" attitude lately. Trying to remove the many different faces I have shown and wearing nothing but I don't give a f&$% about you real face that I own, that I am!! My mind is stuck now in how fake most people are, how it's so accepted and everyday we encounter fakeness and most are on with this. I have put on a face that I no longer will, one that tolerated things like this. I don't need someone I don't care about accept me, to understand me or for me to worry about offending them if I am annoyed. Truth is I let my mind play out so many scenarios at all times and this makes me nuts. I don't even care about a therapist helping me with npd. I wish I could find someone to helps learn how to not care about so many things that I let hold me back. Anyway I know I'm going on and on without any point (all though I'm sure there are a few of you who get me) but I felt like writing tonight especially after reading the posts. Read, enjoy, dislike the new me doesn't care hahaha...

[Atypical_Disaster]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder
One of the few conditions where the patient is left alone and everyone else is treated.

Damn straight! Hahahahaha.

I've been out of therapy for many months now and find that I can really try harder on reflecting on whats needed rather than the circles my last two therapists made my mind travel on.

That's what therapy has always felt like for me, going in circles. And eventually I just end up exploiting my therapists too! I pretend to be "better" but it's all an act to gain their admiration because I'm just so pissed off at their inability to actually help me in a genuine way. I end up picking them apart and destroying their self-esteem and funnily enough I didn't recognize that pattern until recently. Then when I get bored with that, I move on(which trust me, it doesn't take long... hahahaha).

I am diagnosed NPD, INTJ and a gemini so to sum it all up my mind is a mess.

I'm obviously NPD too, as well as INTJ... but I'm a pisces. Supposedly a really selfless sign, I find it fun to shatter that stereotype.

I am learning or at least working on maintaining a "I don't care about what anyone views me as" attitude lately. Trying to remove the many different faces I have shown and wearing nothing but I don't give a f&$% about you real face that I own, that I am!!

I think you just nailed one of my major issues. I wear a lot of masks as narcissists tend to do, and therapists get this idea at first that I'm unusually empathetic and caring when NOTHING could be further from the truth! So I end up playing games with them until they figure me out and then I get annoyed at them and blame them for not figuring it out sooner! I think I'll take a page out of your book and just put on my real face, the "I don't give a flying **** about you and your situation" face that is the real me and stop concealing who I really am.

I have put on a face that I no longer will, one that tolerated things like this. I don't need someone I don't care about accept me, to understand me or for me to worry about offending them if I am annoyed. Truth is I let my mind play out so many scenarios at all times and this makes me nuts. I don't even care about a therapist helping me with npd. I wish I could find someone to helps learn how to not care about so many things that I let hold me back.

Ditto, I've been doing a lot of thinking since I wrote this post and I am past done with bothering.

The bolded part is what I want help with. I don't want to change who I am, I want to modify the things that I know are holding me back. Thanks for writing that!

See I knew someone would get me lol. I think that we as people dealing with a lesson taught from an early age need to grasp that what really is holding us back is only us. Us being our own minds, the quicker we can learn how to not care about what we are perceived to be or what or how or anything for that matter is the real conditioning on becoming better. For me I let my mind play over and over to have a picture on what I see on how something that already past should of been. This is obviously something I cannot change but yet I let my mind stir which in turn causes me more problems because I feel like I wasn't right in dealing with. How do I say well thats done on move ahead? This is the true curse, my new mind set is to work through not caring about a situation enough to give it a second thought. Be me from the start and then how can I feel wrong in the end? My wife tells me there is never an in-between with me. Im either all in or all out and this goes for everything. I am approaching 40 and have figured out that I really don't need people other than my family in my life. Yes to have people to talk with and all the BS is fine but to try and become close with someone outside of my immediate circle is something I no longer have any interest in. It has usually only been for my own needing of whatever that it has happened anyways. I have had close relationships with friends, a couple in HS that I really don't care about and 3 in life. Two of them have died and one said something that made me never want to speak to him again(he is also a godfather to my second son). Just as an idea of the NPD trait, a bunch of people were at my house and this friend of no longer owns a landscaping company. He was doing my neighbors lawn and came over to say hello to the people here. One of them said why don't you do this lawn (meaning mine) and he replied fu*& him he can do it himself. That was it for me lol.
We need to take on who we are and stop hiding behind these stupid masks. Forget what people think and only care what we do. Own things for ourselves and not rely on them as it only continues the pattern of fakeness. Next tattoo: JUDGED BY-SELF!!!!! Screw therapists who cant understand us because in all honesty there are probably less than 1% who can.

Holy. ****ing. Hell. I can't even BEGIN to elaborate on how completely I can identify with everything said here. So much so that it's tiring to even continue to think about. ****.

[shakespeare47]

It helped me to read a few peer reviewed papers on the subject of NPD. It's also helped me to be as open an honest online about whatever it is that bothers me the most, while still remaining anonymous.

[Atypical_Disaster]

^ My diagnosis has changed since I originally wrote this post. My diagnosis is now ASPD. Makes a lot more sense. I knew something just didn't add up, grandiose though I am, NPD just didn't give me a complete picture of what was going on. ASPD is a perfect fit. Now that I know that about myself it's obvious now why therapy has never worked out for me. Antisocials and therapists don't go together very well. Heh.

[Mattmx]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

^ My diagnosis has changed since I originally wrote this post. My diagnosis is now ASPD. Makes a lot more sense. I knew something just didn't add up, grandiose though I am, NPD just didn't give me a complete picture of what was going on. ASPD is a perfect fit. Now that I know that about myself it's obvious now why therapy has never worked out for me. Antisocials and therapists don't go together very well. Heh.

I know it isn't healthy, but I can't help sticking around in therapy. There's just a certain satisfaction you can only get by manipulating therapists and law enforcement. That probably doesn't have ANYTHING to do with why therapists don't like to treat people with ASPD though lol

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

^ My diagnosis has changed since I originally wrote this post. My diagnosis is now ASPD. Makes a lot more sense. I knew something just didn't add up, grandiose though I am, NPD just didn't give me a complete picture of what was going on. ASPD is a perfect fit. Now that I know that about myself it's obvious now why therapy has never worked out for me. Antisocials and therapists don't go together very well. Heh.

Are there better resources for ASPD than for NPD?
Can you suppose there might be a time when you don't fit the criteria for ASPD anymore? Or any PD, for that matter?

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Mattmx

I know it isn't healthy, but I can't help sticking around in therapy. There's just a certain satisfaction you can only get by manipulating therapists and law enforcement. That probably doesn't have ANYTHING to do with why therapists don't like to treat people with ASPD though lol

LOL. You took the words out of my mouth, it it satisfying. I enjoy it as well, and it has driven all of my therapists absolutely crazy.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

Are there better resources for ASPD than for NPD?
Can you suppose there might be a time when you don't fit the criteria for ASPD anymore? Or any PD, for that matter?

Most of psychology and psychiatry has given up on treating ASPD at all. It's the common consensus that there is no treatment and no cure. That suits me fine, I like the way I am.

I'll always have ASPD, though I have modified my behavior since childhood so I can get by unnoticed better.

[shakespeare47]

I have enjoyed letting T's know I have little respect for their field of study in general and their comprehension of the field, specifically. and I did enjoy seeing their frustration when I ignored whatever meaningless BS therapy they pushed at me.

But, they usually turn the situation around so that I ended up getting pissed off at them, and then leave of my own accord.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

I have enjoyed letting them know I have little respect for their field of study. and I did enjoy seeing their frustration when I ignored whatever meaningless BS they pushed at me.

But, they usually turned the table on me, so that I ended up getting pissed off at them, and then left of my own accord.

Can you expand upon what you mean by "meaningless BS"? I'm curious about your definition, I'm wondering if it's at all similar to mine. Hehe.

[shakespeare47]

I thought for a while that I might be suffering from an addiction ( I now really doubt it.. my views on addictions have changed) and went to one T specifically for that. He had some system, it was so retarded that I can't even recall what the hell it was all about. And it obviously made him angry that I didn't take it seriously.

Hell, is it my fault he can't figure out a way to sell his own system?

It devolved into his playing mind games until left.

[shakespeare47]

When I first visited my last T many years ago, he expressed anger that I had very little concern for him and what he was going through as a person.

I thought T's were supposed to be above that type of thing, that they were supposed to be professionals. It was weird. Like he was trying to guilt trip me into being the better person (as defined by him) that he wanted me to be.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

I thought for a while that I might be suffering from an addiction ( I now really doubt it.. my views on addictions have changed) and went to one T specifically for that. He had some system, it was so retarded that I can't even recall what the hell it was all about. And it obviously made him angry that I didn't even take it seriously.

Hell, is it my fault he can't sell his system?

Hahahahahahahaha!

I don't take things like that seriously either, it just amuses me.

What's really fun is when therapists ask me about my trauma history, and I rattle off the details without batting an eye... and then they just stare at me in shock and try to pity me and tell me that surely I have emotions deep down but they are repressed by trauma.

Try again.

I haven't ever had the emotional range of a "normal" person. Therapists always assume I have PTSD, when I do not. I don't fit any of the criteria. Do I remember what happened? Yes. Do I hate what happened? Of course. But the nightmares, anxiety, hyper vigilance, and flashbacks? Nope. That doesn't happen to me.

Also, I am unable to experience emotions like grief, loss, and sorrow. This perplexes therapists because surely with my childhood, I would be crushed by grief... and I would have been, had I been born with the emotional range of a normal person. But I wasn't. Therapists never want to deal with that, so I played games with them. What fun!

[shakespeare47]

In that way I am very different. I have had night terrors and recurring nightmares. I've had dread associated with the memories. And it makes me very angry that there was no one there to protect the 10 year old child that I was (regarding the specific sexual abuse), and it makes me angry that I had parents who were so screwed up.

I do grieve the fact that I missed out on a normal childhood. and I have lot of compassion for those who had traumatic childhood's themselves.

One of my few consolations is that I'm doing everything in my power to be sure my son has a good childhood.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

In that way I am very different. I have had night terrors and recurring nightmares. I've had dread associated with the memories. And it makes me very angry that there was no one there to protect the 10 year old child that I was (regarding the specific sexual abuse), and it makes me angry that I had parents who were so screwed up.

I do grieve the fact that I missed out on a normal childhood. and I have lot of compassion for those who had traumatic childhood's themselves.

Congratulations, you've had a perfectly normal reaction to trauma!

Seriously though, what you're describing is very typical of someone who's been traumatized in childhood.

My parents were beyond screwed up, too. My younger sister has PTSD as well(probably complex PTSD), and she's one of the most neurotic people I know. I didn't turn out that way, apparently I got the ASPD gene and I'm not complaining. Psychopathy runs heavily on both sides of my family so it's no wonder really.

Unfortunately we can't change the past, we just have to move forward now. I think you're already well on your way. Also, the fact that you have compassion for others who have had traumatic childhoods is a good sign. It means that your capacity for empathy is still intact. You have a chance to be your own definition of healthy.

I was born without the capacity for empathy. I can understand what people are going through, and I can actually be quite helpful to people who are having a hard time. But I don't feel any empathy or other emotional reaction in response to what someone is sharing with me.

[shakespeare47]

Philosophy, skepticism and rational thought make more sense to me than some pop psychology psychobabble... no matter how much that might scare those in the MH profession.

Sorry to disappoint you fellas (and by fellas, I mean those in the MH field)... that's just the way it is. Deal with it.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

Philosophy, skepticism and rational thought make more sense to me than some pop psychology psychobabble... no matter how much that might make scare those in the MH profession.

Sorry to disappoint you fellas (and by fellas, I mean those in the MH field)... that's just the way it is. Deal with it.

Agreed. I'm a very rational person and therapists always try to approach me from an emotional standpoint. It's stupid. Not everyone is the same, and I don't like the cookie-cutter approach that so many professionals take. They hear about my childhood and the automatic assumption without talking to me about it at all is, "Atypical must have PTSD!"

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Agreed. I'm a very rational person and therapists always try to approach me from an emotional standpoint. It's stupid. Not everyone is the same, and I don't like the cookie-cutter approach that so many professionals take. They hear about my childhood and the automatic assumption without talking to me about it at all is, "Atypical must have PTSD!"

Are you still in contact with those who abused you? One of the few helpful things I got out of therapy, is the decision to get away from the people who were causing me harm.