Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I've never understood this behavior, people have certainly done that with me and it is just astounding to me. It's like wow lol you're just volunteering for exploitation then.

I can't be exploited if I don't let someone exploit me.

For example, 50% of the time a family member who is NPD just sounds like an overblown buffoon. I bite my tongue. 25% I argue back with him. 25% I go away and take time away from him.

Sometimes we keep people in our lives and just ignore their bad behavior if it doesn't personally damage us.

Another example, an ex on FB. I can talk to him casually, see him on occasion, but not date him.

I am not ENABLING him. It is not my job to fix him or change him. I just keep healthy boundaries.

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

I can certainly understand the emotion of your reactions here, but being able to look at situations accurately and clinically is not the same thing as tickling anyone's egos.

Also, I would submit that working at debasing the ego of a narcissist (or attempting to) is just as sad a body of effort as may be tickling it (which I don't see how identifying an obvious skill as technically existing is doing), because it's wasted effort on the part of the non. I mean, it might make you feel good, but it doesn't affect the narc, so what's so much better about a behavior that only keeps you in a cycle of negative thoughts? My personal opinion and experience is that there's no better bid for sanity than releasing one's emotions and mental efforts from any rollercoaster rides of being overengaged with narcs. Just say no.

I may be at a different juncture though. I split up with a narc husband what is now about 15 years ago, and although I still wince when I have to hear my always overengaged mother go on about how hard things are for my narc sister (she is an uber-rich, high society girl who owns multiple residences in new york city, in the hamptons, in other locations looked upon by the rich as acceptable parking spots, she has her own fashion line, knows everybody on the circuit, goes to all the best parties, is a perfect looking person having access to better plastic surgery than you've ever seen in hollywood, etc. etc. etc. doesn't it sound so terrible) only because it's hard to watch her badly invest so much emotional energy, but for me, although I can't help but love my sister because love is love and can't be reeled in the way we would like sometimes, having accepted what is possible and what truly isn't I'm released from being hurt anymore.

I think as long as you're still throwing barbs and getting worked up about what narcs are and do, you're probably still caught in the emotional cycle with them. You might want to try getting off the ride and watching from the sidelines. The view is good.

But hey. That's my reality. You have yours and I'm glad it's working for you however well it does. I'm just not clear on what makes you so confident that your reality is simply, "reality"..

I agree.

[marmaduke]

Vanentina

my narc sister (she is an uber-rich, high society girl who owns multiple residences in new york city, in the hamptons, in other locations looked upon by the rich as acceptable parking spots, she has her own fashion line, knows everybody on the circuit, goes to all the best parties, is a perfect looking person having access to better plastic surgery than you've ever seen in hollywood, etc. etc. etc. doesn't it sound so terrible)

My Nsis is also powerful and confident.

So, taking all that into account do you believe she is;

A wounded soul, a secretly insecure frightened person. A terribly hurt depressed person hiding behind a facade of confidence?
This seems to be an explanation for Narcissism many repeat.

Sounds to me your sister is having a great time!

NPD mask. What does that mean?

They are what they are.

Dont we all wear a bit of a 'mask' when we go out.

Yep, we all put on different faces to different people. Now to find someone where neither of wears a face. That would be great.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

Vanentina

my narc sister (she is an uber-rich, high society girl who owns multiple residences in new york city, in the hamptons, in other locations looked upon by the rich as acceptable parking spots, she has her own fashion line, knows everybody on the circuit, goes to all the best parties, is a perfect looking person having access to better plastic surgery than you've ever seen in hollywood, etc. etc. etc. doesn't it sound so terrible)

My Nsis is also powerful and confident.

So, taking all that into account do you believe she is;

A wounded soul, a secretly insecure frightened person. A terribly hurt depressed person hiding behind a facade of confidence?
This seems to be an explanation for Narcissism many repeat.

Sounds to me your sister is having a great time!

That's actually from my post, about my sister. She is indeed having a great time, but it's never enough for her. She's all the time complaining about how terribly boring and uneventful her life is, even whilst jetsetting around to spas and red carpet events. Those complaints are half humble-brag, and half thriving off having everyone around her working to try to please her. God bless those who have the heart to keep trying.

There were some wounds for her early on, and she had narcissistic traits from early on as well, so it's hard to discern whether the chicken or the egg came first, but ultimately I figure that both nature+nurture play a part: the DNA had to have been there in the first place for the traits to have existed, but outside events drew them out to play a more prominent part. The business about being insecure or depressed likewise ends up being a bit of a paradox.. who knows if she's any more so than anyone else, or is just so disinclined to deal with the feelings involved that she crafted this uber-fabulous life for herself that allows her to dodge them. We all find what works for us, ultimately.

[marmaduke]

Oooops
Made mistake 😐

I think my sister was born that way cos she was 'different' from the get go.
'Nature provides the gun nature pulls the trigger'
Sister was mothers 'chosen' child the precious Golden one. No doubt mothers adoring obsession cemented the PD pretty firmly.

I suspect sis of sociopathy more than NPD, as she is acutely aware of her actions, whereas most narcs are oblivious.
And she will do whatever it takes to get her way.
I used to love her. But no more. A few things have happened that shocked me into realising just how evil she really was.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

[Atypical_Disaster]

I suspect sis of sociopathy more than NPD, as she is acutely aware of her actions, whereas most narcs are oblivious.

There's the rub for me, unless I'm openly being vengeful or something I really have no idea what I'm doing that's supposedly so very harmful to people. People have called me out on my behavior before as being "abusive" or otherwise "hurtful" and I'm left completely clueless not knowing what the hell I did that's oh so terrible, so of course I tell them they must be imagining things because really, what am I doing? People have reacted to me pretty strongly here and I still don't know what I did that was so terrible.

[SnowyOwl1]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I've never understood this behavior, people have certainly done that with me and it is just astounding to me. It's like wow lol you're just volunteering for exploitation then.

I certainly did that with my ex-husband for a long time. He kept mistreating me and I kept loving him.

For me, it wasn't entirely about him. It was about being true to myself, too. I am a loving and loyal person at heart. I believe in second chances, and I try to see the value in people no matter what their personality traits. So my loving him despite his behavior was also being true to myself and my own personality. I had had the same kind of love for other family and friends, and even if someone temporarily acted badly, my faith in them was eventually returned with love.

Of course, for a long time, I honestly did not know about personality disorders. So when my husband treated me badly, I thought he was just acting like a jerk at that moment, and he would eventually realize he was wrong, apologize, and learn from his mistakes. Hope springs eternal. I don't think I was trying to change him - I just thought that his brain worked the same way mine does. Everyone acts like a jerk sometimes, but they realize it and stop. I thought that was what was going on.

But once I started to read about personality disorders, all of his behaviors fit almost perfectly within the description of NPD. I realized that placing my loyalty and hope and value in him was not going to have the same result as it does with other people. Suddenly it all made a lot more sense. Knowledge was power in my situation.

[marmaduke]

I did the same with my ex. Made endless excuses.
For me knowledge was power. Suddenly it made sense. Rages, moods he was never wrong and NEVER admitted fault.
Then I knew. He was not going to change, I'd wasted my time.


Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

That moment of truth for NONS. When we discover they will never change.

[jacky8807]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

People lash out in fear over what they do not understand. Pity, really. I've dealt with more personal attacks on here from people with their capacity for empathy fully intact than I have ever dealt with from any Narcissist, Sociopath, or Psychopath around here.

Do you all think insulting me instead of whoever ****ed you up in your past is somehow going to make things better? It won't. You're making it worse.

I do not appreciate being insulted on literally the only forum where I can actually talk about my experiences as a Narcissist. For all of you who think this is some sort of cakewalk for Underground and me, you are all dead wrong.

So funny because I came over to this forum right this second thinking....I like it over here. I tend to be logical rather than emotional and have a sense of humour. All which I find here (from the narcs no less!) Lol
You guys have taken a lot and stand strong...my god in most places here you can't look the wrong way without someone getting upset over it
Your cool atypical and u.g.
Don't let them get to ya

[marmaduke]

jacky

Same here.

I tend to be logical rather than emotional and have a sense of humour. All which I find here (from the narcs no less!) Lol
Your cool atypical and u.g.

Yeah they are logical. I like that.
Honesty I like honesty.

Think thats why I like robots. Logic, science, common sense.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by jacky8807

So funny because I came over to this forum right this second thinking....I like it over here. I tend to be logical rather than emotional and have a sense of humour. All which I find here (from the narcs no less!) Lol
You guys have taken a lot and stand strong...my god in most places here you can't look the wrong way without someone getting upset over it
Your cool atypical and u.g.
Don't let them get to ya

I have to say a good portion of the nons posting here have been a breath of fresh air(you're one of those people), more objective and logical which are always things I like in a person.

I am self-aware enough through my inherent nature and through some solid therapy to know that objectively, my NPD obviously hurts people... I am not at a point where I can really, truly, see my behavior as harmful but when enough people are calling you a "cold hearted narcissistic *****" you start to pay attention. Lol.

A lot of the time it seems to me that people are just highly sensitive creatures. I have lasting friendships(more than people would think), and they are with people who aren't so sensitive. Over time I've found people who appreciate my lack of "OMG I'm SO SORRY let me give you a HUG" attitude and my tendency to just call it how I see it as it were.

I appreciate your posts here, as with several others... you all know who you are.

Originally Posted by marmaduke

jacky

Same here.

I tend to be logical rather than emotional and have a sense of humour. All which I find here (from the narcs no less!) Lol
Your cool atypical and u.g.

Yeah they are logical. I like that.
Honesty I like honesty.

Think thats why I like robots. Logic, science, common sense.

Honesty is something I still have trouble with because... Well for the sake of honesty here, I often don't know when I'm lying. I have found out through therapy and no BS friends I have that I tend to start lying to myself first, and then I lie to other people without knowing it because I wind up believing the lies I tell to myself. It's some subconscious thing I do that I have yet to be able to catch early. Why do I want to catch it at all? Because I am self-aware enough to know that my self-deception harms me, sure it's not at all altruistic but I care that I am stifling myself and not being true to myself.

Things to work on... Many of you have made me think about things and I like being intellectually challenged.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by SnowyOwl1

I certainly did that with my ex-husband for a long time. He kept mistreating me and I kept loving him.

For me, it wasn't entirely about him. It was about being true to myself, too. I am a loving and loyal person at heart. I believe in second chances, and I try to see the value in people no matter what their personality traits. So my loving him despite his behavior was also being true to myself and my own personality. I had had the same kind of love for other family and friends, and even if someone temporarily acted badly, my faith in them was eventually returned with love.

Of course, for a long time, I honestly did not know about personality disorders. So when my husband treated me badly, I thought he was just acting like a jerk at that moment, and he would eventually realize he was wrong, apologize, and learn from his mistakes. Hope springs eternal. I don't think I was trying to change him - I just thought that his brain worked the same way mine does. Everyone acts like a jerk sometimes, but they realize it and stop. I thought that was what was going on.

But once I started to read about personality disorders, all of his behaviors fit almost perfectly within the description of NPD. I realized that placing my loyalty and hope and value in him was not going to have the same result as it does with other people. Suddenly it all made a lot more sense. Knowledge was power in my situation.

Now THIS is an explanation that actually makes sense, thank you for posting this.

[here today]

There were some interesting discussions on this thread a while back. I miss them! Narcissism – and the topics of ego, self, and identity – are topics that fascinate me even though I don’t have the NPD form of disordered personality.

Here’s a long quote from the Wikipedia article on true and false self that I could certainly identify with. For instance, Lowen’s description of a narcissist is a lot like me, only I mostly “acted in” my rebellion and anger on myself. Or at least so I think. Also interesting is Masterson’s contention that all personality disorders involve a conflict between the “true” and “false” self.

True self and false self are concepts introduced into psychoanalysis in 1960 by D. W. Winnicott. Winnicott used "True Self" to describe a sense of self based on spontaneous authentic experience, and a feeling of being alive, having a "real self".

"False Self" by contrast Winnicott saw as a defensive facade — one which in extreme cases could leave its holders lacking spontaneity and feeling dead and empty, behind a mere appearance of being real.

Winnicott saw the True Self as rooted from early infancy in the experience of being alive, including blood pumping and lungs breathing – what Winnicott called simply being. Out of this the baby creates the experience of a sense of reality, a sense that life is worth living. The baby's spontaneous, nonverbal gestures derive from that instinctual sense, and if responded to by the motherer, become the basis for the continuing development of the True Self.

However, when what Winnicott was careful to describe as good enough parenting — i.e. not necessarily perfect! — was not in place, the infant's spontaneity was in danger of being encroached on by the need for compliance with the parents' wishes/expectations. The result for Winnicott could be the creation of what he called the False Self, where “Other people's expectations can become of overriding importance, overlaying or contradicting the original sense of self, the one connected to the very roots of one's being”. The danger he saw was that “through this False Self, the infant builds up a false set of relationships, and by means of introjections even attains a show of being real”, while in fact merely concealing a barren emptiness behind an independent-seeming facade.

The danger was particularly acute where the baby had to provide attunement for the mother/parents, rather than vice versa, building up a sort of dissociated recognition of the object on an impersonal, not personal and spontaneous basis. But while such a pathological False Self stifled the spontaneous gestures of the True Self in favour of a lifeless imitation, Winnicott nevertheless considered it of vital importance in preventing something worse: the annihilating experience of the exploitation of the hidden True Self itself.

The last half-century have seen Winnicott's ideas extended and applied in a variety of contexts, both in psychoanalysis and beyond.

Kohut: Heinz Kohut extended Winnicott's work in his investigation of narcissism, seeing narcissists as evolving a defensive armor around their damaged inner selves. He considered it less pathological to identify with the damaged remnants of the self, than to achieve coherence through identification with an external personality at the cost of one's own autonomous creativity.

Lowen: Alexander Lowen identified narcissists as having a true and a false, or superficial, self. The false self rests on the surface, as the self presented to the world. It stands in contrast to the true self, which resides behind the facade or image. This true self is the feeling self, but it is a self that must be hidden and denied. Since the superficial self represents submission and conformity, the inner or true self is rebellious and angry. This underlying rebellion and anger can never be fully suppressed since it is an expression of the life force in that person. But because of the denial, it cannot be expressed directly. Instead it shows up in the narcissist's acting out. And it can become a perverse force.

Masterson: James F. Masterson argued that all the personality disorders crucially involve the conflict between a person’s two “selves”: the false self, which the very young child constructs to please the mother, and the true self. The psychotherapy of personality disorders is an attempt to put people back in touch with their real selves.

Thoughts or reactions, anybody?

Originally Posted by here today

There were some interesting discussions on this thread a while back. I miss them! Narcissism – and the topics of ego, self, and identity – are topics that fascinate me even though I don’t have the NPD form of disordered personality.

Here’s a long quote from the Wikipedia article on true and false self that I could certainly identify with. For instance, Lowen’s description of a narcissist is a lot like me, only I mostly “acted in” my rebellion and anger on myself. Or at least so I think. Also interesting is Masterson’s contention that all personality disorders involve a conflict between the “true” and “false” self.


Thoughts or reactions, anybody?

True/False could also equate to not learning as a child rather than damaged as one. I suppose the not learning could also be recognized as damage. Some valid insight but to what extent, seems so simple in hindsight!!

True self= A parent or both who showed their child love, explained to them why things happen, told them it will be ok, taught lessons and so on.

False self= lack of everything, abused, neglect and it too goes on and on.

Damn mom why couldn't you show some love HA HA!!

Truth is we are people when in that impressionable stage that were left to figure things out for ourselves. I was normal (to me) for many years. Then I was not. Struggled with my demons for a long time and now realize more than ever how I hate the emptiness, the numbness and all in-between. Sure it is simple to show one face that the world see's only to see yourself in the mirror as anything but. I don't think this is only a person with NPD though. This reality is more complicated than any single label.

Some lyrics form Seether (Seems he relates):

It seems like every day’s the same
and I’m left to discover on my own
It seems like everything is gray
and there’s no color to behold
They say it’s over and I’m fine again, yeah
Try to stay sober feels like I’m dying here

A tortured soul have I become
It keep's me safe and leaves me numb, right?

One more which is a remake by Disturbed:

Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left it's seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains within the sound of silence

There are so many great words that we can all relate to. I keep my soul dark because I don't know how to let go of pain. I don't know how to express it either in a positive way as I should of learned in those younger years. I saw a great quote that said if you could read my mind you would not be able to stop your tears. The torture I allow myself to replay is crazy, but knowing there are so many others like me at least makes me feel a little comfort. To get to a place in piece with one self is the ultimate goal. The necessity of what is supposed to be defined as a good life. All the material BS and the ways that you are expected to be is what kills us all inside. (any song writers the last one is a good one)!! I am me, I am not a monster but one who feels things that cannot be explained or expressed in person. Sure some of my thoughts may not be looked at as something that is positive but they are my own. With that I am still someone who would appreciate to feel normal, to understand things properly and be able to replay that in my ways. Maybe some of us need to be dark, to have the feelings of torture clamp around our souls to give us a meaning of what we are. In church I heard God only gives us what we can handle. That comment made me smirk a little!! Funny joke right?? Death, torture, crazy thought patterns, childhood crap and more and more.
Thanks for that!!

[here today]

Very powerfully stated.

What happened to this forum anyway?? I see nobody coming and writing here anymore. Seems like a circle we go in here, certain times non stop action and then nothing!! Come on people make this something again. I hate coming here and seeing nothing!!

[Atypical_Disaster]

Before we even think of going into what is true or false about the Self, we must first define what the Self even is. So, here today, Underground, and others... What is a Self? What does that mean? What is an ego, what is an identity? If we cannot define these things for ourselves, then calling a Self false or true or whatever just wouldn't be very smart.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Maybe some of us need to be dark, to have the feelings of torture clamp around our souls to give us a meaning of what we are.

Darkness doesn't have to mean pain. Though I will say, pain can transform a person for good or ill, it all depends on how said pain was inflicted and who the person on the receiving end is. I am no stranger to extreme pain, I am a survivor of things that should have left me dead instead of on a forum typing this post. Some of my survival was luck, but a lot of it was my sheer willpower to make it out alive. It is amazing what a human being can go through, and still survive. You can see it all the time, if you have the sight to see yourself and therefore see other people.

Pain can simply destroy and nothing else, and often it does... But sometimes, such as with people like myself, the very pain that threatened my life has actually propelled me into living life more fully. To being very conscious of my life force, flowing in and out again with every heartbeat, every breath I take.

This part of your post was intriguing for me, Underground, because I have found that it was essential for my survival to give the pain I was and still am in significance. I had to give it meaning, otherwise I would not be here. I am sure of that.

Also, darkness does not equate to evil just as light does not equate to good.

[here today]

To go back to Wikipedia's quote about Kohut:

Kohut: Heinz Kohut extended Winnicott's work in his investigation of narcissism, seeing narcissists as evolving a defensive armor around their damaged inner selves. He considered it less pathological to identify with the damaged remnants of the self, than to achieve coherence through identification with an external personality at the cost of one's own autonomous creativity.

Like many, I think that I DID "achieve coherence through identification with and external personality" or societal standards at the cost of my own autonomous creativity. It exited the scene, not entirely, but in most social interactions. For my own safety, acceptance. Nevertheless at a big cost.

Again from Underground:

Originally Posted by Underground

. . .Maybe some of us need to be dark, to have the feelings of torture clamp around our souls to give us a meaning of what we are. . .

I dissociated from my darkness, from the pain. I'm old, done a lot of work in therapy, research, etc. Tried to get the dissociated parts of me back, only to have therapists recoil from them in therapy and reflexively shame me. Yes, I know that may sound . . . unbelievable or something. . .but I think I (or my dissociated parts) are finally getting through to my current therapist.

When we can't count on the people around us to care for us and help in times of need, then yes, as organisms, young children, our sense of survival leads us to depend on ourselves.

I'm getting my dissociated parts back, I think. One says matter of factly "I am important." Not more important than anybody else, that's not part of the statement. The other's position is "if you hurt me I'll hurt you back." When I mentioned that to my therapist she recoiled a little. That's what society has done to most of us. Living in society we can't do that all the time but my cats do that to me and to each other -- that's how they let us know when there're "hurt" by what we have done. And it's how little kids react frequently, too. For me, that impulse was just not allowed, as it had not been for my family members. Without it, though -- how do we defend ourselves? Our individuality? Our different points of view and unique perspectives?

[here today]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Before we even think of going into what is true or false about the Self, we must first define what the Self even is. So, here today, Underground, and others... What is a Self? What does that mean? What is an ego, what is an identity? If we cannot define these things for ourselves, then calling a Self false or true or whatever just wouldn't be very smart.

Don't know if this will help. It may just be geeky something or other. Obnoxious know-it-all-ness? Hopefully that will be "forgiven" in this forum and you all can tell me if that's how it comes across.

To me, the Self is the sum of our motivations or potential for motivation that can be called upon or simply have the capability to act in the situations in which we may find ourselves.

Again to me, the ego is the cognitive sense of that Self. A sense of self, importantly with a small "s". And if some aspects of the Self are cut off, then the ego can't include them.

False self is a concept-driven sense of self, coming from one's ideal of oneself, whether that is driven primarily by one's wish to see oneself as great or by adherence to others' ideals or social norms. True self is a sense that comes from awareness of the true Self.

Identity is the cognitive sense of self, "true" or "false" or some combination.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

. . .
Pain can simply destroy and nothing else, and often it does... But sometimes, such as with people like myself, the very pain that threatened my life has actually propelled me into living life more fully. . .

Thanks so much for writing this. Maybe that's a challenge, and potential "solution", for lots of us? But we can't really do that until we feel the pain and that can be so debilitating, destructive even, of the life we built without it.

Half full, half empty just depends how one interprets it!! Not saying sadness is only definition of darkness or evil just a mix of thoughts and ways that makes you different then most others. Some people are happy ones, walk around with the sun shining brightly all the time. Then theirs others who have the mix of up and downs. Then there is my type, one who shows happiness in a false sense, feels numb almost all the time. No fluctuation of feelings that make others feel good I guess. The dark is more of a part that keeps what others call a good place away from us. No matter what we experienced in our lives. I notice that I laugh most of the time because that's what is expected (so fake). Smile because that what I am supposed to do at certain moments. Truth is the darkness of thoughts consume me, I allow myself to stay trapped in what some may call stupid. For me it's more like a part of me, one that I am so accustom to that its like breathing. Yes somethings I need to work on (like MOST of us here). Just haven't been able to do that part yet.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Underground

. . .Then there is my type, one who shows happiness in a false sense, feels numb almost all the time. . .

I can certainly relate to that.

Do you trust people? I mean in general? Mostly I feel people will use or judge me. Some might say that's projection, what I tend to do. Maybe. But mostly I think it's what I got from my family, the way my parents and the extended families functioned.

I'm doing a little better currently, but darn, has it been hard. And no help from the MH system. Personality is a joint thing between the person's temperament and the environment, so even if/when we get our psyches OK how and where are we going to learn how to be "normal" or "authentic", etc.?

My therapist had nothing to offer so I have " pushed" myself out into the world, with some failures some success, but like I said it has been extremely hard. Still is.