I'm done with therapists taking sides with people who abuse, particularly parents, and saying it's all in our hands to help people help us or help people treat us better, when people like me are in such dumps they have no power to do so. It's just one way of saying "Deal with it", when you can't!

So hereby I offer the idea of a mental health police - parent has demotivated you to life? Penalty! Feel controlled by a spouse? Have a mental health investigator investigate the spouse and make it mandatory!

[Barreja]

Might help

This was written from frustration, I felt horrible when I wrote this.
But it's true - mental abuses prevent one from fully growing and fulfilling potential. Forward-thinking this, this could become a form of bible.
Remember where in the bible there are laws such as "Do not steal", "Do not murder" and "Respect your mother and father"?
It could be renewed to "Do not demotivate", "Do not release anger unto innocents to your pain". The latter could have been an excellent sentence for my father

[Sunflower123]

I'm sorry you're having such a tough time.

[salus]

Would people listen to the police?

You know what's sad is that I actually fantasize more often than I care to admit about ruling the world as a king or emperor. I have even gone into detail on how I would write laws and enforce them.

One of the things I thought about is how I would handle abusers. For lesser forms of abuse, I would force the abuser to attend classes on how to better treat people and I would make them do mandatory community service to help those who may need human contact; either elders or lonely people who can't find love by providing supervised companionship. If the abuse was severe enough to cause any type of long term psychological or physical damage, I would force the abuser to pay for their victims medical bills and living expenses every month until they're either better or die. If they couldn't afford to pay, I would have them enslaved and force them to do the labor that most other people wouldn't do to pay their dues to their victim so that the victim doesn't have to struggle just to survive or turn to drugs and alcohol or become abusers themselves to ease their own pain while saving the government money on disability payments and public assistance.

I would also make it to where if an abuse victim commits a crime, instead of them being imprisoned for the full sentence, I would split the sentence with their abuser. So lets say an abuse victim kills somebody; instead of locking them up for the rest of their life, I would have them do 20 or so years along with their abuser.

If I ran things this world would change fast. Unfortunately, I don't have the power that I fantasize about in reality. Oh well, mental health police will have to do

P.S I might make a thread about this later.

[Qbeeten]

I agree. Abusers should be made to pay. Instead they get bonus' for abusing others. They actually reap rewards from it because the abuser population is growing out of proportion and is condoned by weak minded imbeciles.

Originally Posted by Qbeeten

I agree. Abusers should be made to pay. Instead they get bonus' for abusing others. They actually reap rewards from it because the abuser population is growing out of proportion and is condoned by weak minded imbeciles.

Even the concept of mental health accepts them - treating those who are hurt and not those who hurt.

[mugwort2]

My take is many times abusers perpetuate abuse. That is they are victims of being abused themselves. IMHO we should try to prevent abusive behavior by trying our best to understand where other people are coming from. Especially the hurt they are enduring. Abuse only perpetuates abuse Let's end it by trying to understand each other. To seek kindness and understanding. I was victimized by an abusive man who lived with me. He wasn't my boyfriend. Its as they say complicated. If you want me to explain okay. I felt he was terribly hurt by previous experiences. No offense VO I think we should try to prevent further abuse. Its a viscious cycle. Abuse produces abuse. Let's try to end the cycle.

So a robber probably comes to steal your TV because he's poor and can't afford it. Again, probably. You can forgive and understand, but does he care about you? Probably not, he cares about owning a TV. You do nothing and more robbers come. What will you do now?
Call the police so they'll stop their intrusions.
Physical, verbal and mental abuses are intrusions - taking or destroying personal property or potential from another without giving back.

So if robbers and physical violators are "brutally" (with all the assertive shoving and hand-cuffing for instance) arrested, I don't see a reason why mental abusers shouldn't be treated the same way.

EDIT: Just a little note of example - I would put Mark Zuckerberg as an example of someone who stole an idea from someone else. That's harmful, yet has been widely accepted around the world.

Another point of mine - if someone is abused in school or feels neglected in school, why should the hurt literally pay the price? Why does the focus has to be on the hurt and not on those who hurt or EVEN make them feel hurt?
If those who are hurt are the only ones who need to take responsibility for themselves by literally paying the price, why are those who hurt or don't care roam about, freely doing so with no penalty?

Originally Posted by Vibrating Obsidian

Another point of mine - if someone is abused in school or feels neglected in school, why should the hurt literally pay the price? Why does the focus has to be on the hurt and not on those who hurt or EVEN make them feel hurt?
If those who are hurt are the only ones who need to take responsibility for themselves by literally paying the price, why are those who hurt or don't care roam about, freely doing so with no penalty?

I couldn't agree more.

It has been bothering me for awhile that somebody who is messed up from being abused in such a way that they struggle to take care of themselves or function in society has to endure even more hardship in the form of getting treatment and paying their medical bills from seeing a psychiatrist or therapist along with any medicines that they have to take.

An abuse victim is basically paying time, money, and emotional energy for a crime that they didn't commit. That would be like finding some random homeless person on the street, beating them up for no reason, and then having them go to jail for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Even if an abuser gets sent to prison, it does little about the actual problem at hand. I'm all about being practical and what is actually practical is forcing the abuser to make amends to their victim, which includes actually helping contribute towards their healing in the form of helping them pay for their medical and living expenses so the victim doesn't have to worry about surviving and can instead, focus on healing.

I might just make that thread after all. If only there were more hours in the day.

[Crypts_Of_The_Mind]

Originally Posted by mugwort2

My take is many times abusers perpetuate abuse. That is they are victims of being abused themselves. IMHO we should try to prevent abusive behavior by trying our best to understand where other people are coming from. Especially the hurt they are enduring. Abuse only perpetuates abuse Let's end it by trying to understand each other. To seek kindness and understanding. I was victimized by an abusive man who lived with me. He wasn't my boyfriend. Its as they say complicated. If you want me to explain okay. I felt he was terribly hurt by previous experiences. No offense VO I think we should try to prevent further abuse. Its a viscious cycle. Abuse produces abuse. Let's try to end the cycle.

As an abuse victim myself, I will tell you - I REALLY hate the excuse "well, my aunt/uncle/mother/father/etc abused me in the past, so it was just something I did without thinking ... I'm sorry". You know what that is? An "accepted excuse" meaning society has decided "ok, we will let this EXCUSE slide even though we know by no means is it a true REASON". Then, society at large went around reciting it enough everyone believes it. And now, more and more things a parent does to punish their child is deemed as abuse. So, as the ranges of abuse change, so to does the number of "acceptable abuse" ( meaning the poor abuser was abused in their past so this crime is only mentionable as an "inevitable result of the abuse"

Abuse victims are often looked down upon while abusers are given "free tickets for sympathy" such as this. Rape victims are made to prove they not only were raped but did not in some way "ask for it" or "encourage it". Victims of domestic abuse, if too afraid to attend court are brought up on charges and jailed while their abuser walks free.

I'm so sick of abusers being given free passes and excuses and allowed to repeat again with next to no type of punishment.

You may say, well it is what a person knows or has been taught if abused in childhood. Let me ask you this, when you grew into adulthood and got out from under your parents, did your views on things ever change? Do you truly believe an abused child doesn't ever look around and notice other parents don't treat their kids this way...and eventually figure out, it's wrong?

People want liberation and that's what they get - competition.
"Are you envious? Well you shouldn't be! Just because I have lots of money/a girlfriend/great skills doesn't mean you should envy, you have no right! Now go be depressed or anxious of life, and out of my sight. Mental Health Professionals, take care of that worthless human who is not willing to comply to our commands."

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend

I couldn't agree more.

It has been bothering me for awhile that somebody who is messed up from being abused in such a way that they struggle to take care of themselves or function in society has to endure even more hardship in the form of getting treatment and paying their medical bills from seeing a psychiatrist or therapist along with any medicines that they have to take.

An abuse victim is basically paying time, money, and emotional energy for a crime that they didn't commit. That would be like finding some random homeless person on the street, beating them up for no reason, and then having them go to jail for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Even if an abuser gets sent to prison, it does little about the actual problem at hand. I'm all about being practical and what is actually practical is forcing the abuser to make amends to their victim, which includes actually helping contribute towards their healing in the form of helping them pay for their medical and living expenses so the victim doesn't have to worry about surviving and can instead, focus on healing.

I might just make that thread after all. If only there were more hours in the day.

Kind of to your point...about 10 years ago I had a friend who was hit by a minor who was drunk driving. He was very seriously injured (on his bike, obeying all laws). Eventually the case was in court, and the cycling community was calling for the girl's head on a platter. They wanted jail time. But my friend had to ask them to stop protesting and demanding stuff because if she went to jail, he couldn't get restitution. Eventually he settled and got a very large settlement, but it just reminds me that we send people to jail, and then restitution is **** out of luck.

There has to be a better way.

Seesaw

Originally Posted by seesaw

Kind of to your point...about 10 years ago I had a friend who was hit by a minor who was drunk driving. He was very seriously injured (on his bike, obeying all laws). Eventually the case was in court, and the cycling community was calling for the girl's head on a platter. They wanted jail time. But my friend had to ask them to stop protesting and demanding stuff because if she went to jail, he couldn't get restitution. Eventually he settled and got a very large settlement, but it just reminds me that we send people to jail, and then restitution is **** out of luck.

There has to be a better way.

Seesaw

I get your point, but we can't compare the physical body to the mental body. He may have been physically harmed and had his bike damaged, but his mind was healthy and strong enough to fight the protesters and propose a different offer.
And an ill mind can't always think rationally like he did. And an ill mind is not just genetic, but also environmental. The problem with saying it's genetic is it says "That's the way it is", with no responsibility on no one but the treated one, and some responsibility of therapist and psychiatrists, yet when some of them gaslight the client, they can make them feel it's their fault.
Biased to my feelings from therapy and psychiatry, but just because it's biased and I am aware that what I say has an element of bias, doesn't mean it's wrong and surely doesn't mean no one else is aware of it.

[Crypts_Of_The_Mind]

Originally Posted by Vibrating Obsidian

I get your point, but we can't compare the physical body to the mental body. He may have been physically harmed and had his bike damaged, but his mind was healthy and strong enough to fight the protesters and propose a different offer.
And an ill mind can't always think rationally like he did. And an ill mind is not just genetic, but also environmental. The problem with saying it's genetic is it says "That's the way it is", with no responsibility on no one but the treated one, and some responsibility of therapist and psychiatrists, yet when some of them gaslight the client, they can make them feel it's their fault.
Biased to my feelings from therapy and psychiatry, but just because it's biased and I am aware that what I say has an element of bias, doesn't mean it's wrong and surely doesn't mean no one else is aware of it.

I think the point of the previous post (the one you responded to here) was to give creedence to Darkness's idea. Darkness earlier was saying how he felt abusers should be made to compensate their victim in the form of paying for their treatment and any complications to their life that the abuse has caused (ie if the person is unable to work, the abuser pays the person an income). If, however, we continue to incarcerate abusers and other offenders, these types of things cannot happen and therefore the abuse victim not only has to deal with the fact that he or she was abused, but all the ramifications it caused in his or her life, as well as the stigma that goes with it. Basically, making the victim...the criminal, while the criminal gets jail. Yea, jail sounds bad...but it is getting to be cushy enough, I know people here where I live talk about how "it's (jail) is better than living here"

Originally Posted by Crypts_Of_The_Mind

I think the point of the previous post (the one you responded to here) was to give creedence to Darkness's idea. Darkness earlier was saying how he felt abusers should be made to compensate their victim in the form of paying for their treatment and any complications to their life that the abuse has caused (ie if the person is unable to work, the abuser pays the person an income). If, however, we continue to incarcerate abusers and other offenders, these types of things cannot happen and therefore the abuse victim not only has to deal with the fact that he or she was abused, but all the ramifications it caused in his or her life, as well as the stigma that goes with it. Basically, making the victim...the criminal, while the criminal gets jail. Yea, jail sounds bad...but it is getting to be cushy enough, I know people here where I live talk about how "it's (jail) is better than living here"

Unfortunately, the legal system (I don't call it the justice system because there isn't any justice to speak of) is still behind in the times and needs to evolve with the rest of the 21st century.

A major problem with society as a whole in most first world countries (with America being one of the worst) is that people put too much of an emphasis on punishing people for misdeeds instead of rehabilitating criminals or helping victims. Instead of locking people up, we should be figuring out what causes criminals, such as abusers, to tick and how to prevent people from becoming abusers or criminals and helping the victims in a practical way; such as my example used earlier in this thread about forcing the abusers to pay for their victims medical and living expenses.

Additionally, we should be focusing on rehabilitating abusers and criminals instead of locking them up. Locking them up accomplishes the exact opposite; especially with how hard it becomes for somebody with a criminal record to find gainful employment, which essentially, forces the vast majority of convicts back into crime.

Anyways, I don't want to turn this thread into a political debate because I hate talking about politics most of the time. However, I felt the need to speak my mind on this topic since it is relevant to this thread and relevant to the world as a whole. Until the system changes, the cycle of abuse will only continue to get worse. I speak from experience when I say that most abusers won't change simply because there is too much work and pain involved in changing so they take the easier way out. I know because I used to be like this myself and if it wasn't for 2 people who showed me compassion, I would most likely be an abuser myself.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by Vibrating Obsidian

I get your point, but we can't compare the physical body to the mental body. He may have been physically harmed and had his bike damaged, but his mind was healthy and strong enough to fight the protesters and propose a different offer.
And an ill mind can't always think rationally like he did. And an ill mind is not just genetic, but also environmental. The problem with saying it's genetic is it says "That's the way it is", with no responsibility on no one but the treated one, and some responsibility of therapist and psychiatrists, yet when some of them gaslight the client, they can make them feel it's their fault.
Biased to my feelings from therapy and psychiatry, but just because it's biased and I am aware that what I say has an element of bias, doesn't mean it's wrong and surely doesn't mean no one else is aware of it.

No, his mind wasn't fine. He suffered from severe ptsd afterwards and also the aftermath of traumatic brain injury. So he actually didn't have the strength to call the protesters off. A few of us who were close to him did it for him. In fact his brain was screwed up more than his body. And his body was torn up.

Originally Posted by Crypts_Of_The_Mind

I think the point of the previous post (the one you responded to here) was to give creedence to Darkness's idea. Darkness earlier was saying how he felt abusers should be made to compensate their victim in the form of paying for their treatment and any complications to their life that the abuse has caused (ie if the person is unable to work, the abuser pays the person an income). If, however, we continue to incarcerate abusers and other offenders, these types of things cannot happen and therefore the abuse victim not only has to deal with the fact that he or she was abused, but all the ramifications it caused in his or her life, as well as the stigma that goes with it. Basically, making the victim...the criminal, while the criminal gets jail. Yea, jail sounds bad...but it is getting to be cushy enough, I know people here where I live talk about how "it's (jail) is better than living here"

Yes, it took me some time to connect the dots, but I did get it when I wrote my post.

I was personally abused by 2 people who were my best friends. I allowed them to be angry with me, yet I never did anything about their angers. No boundaries, just an attempt to be a listener and understand. I was there for them in their good and bad times. But then I started noticing they've been diminishing my worth. So the relationships turned into leave and return and leave, from my side.
The problem however, is I am left with toxin feelings in my belly, and was tempted to worthlessness and suicidal thoughts. Life has been left in ruins. I got to know overtime how selfish and ****** they were.
Of course I can help myself through therapy. Too bad no friend can help. Not even my parents can help (sometimes I just think they just don't care).

But really, people have **** in them, yet I feel like a bag full of **** because of those kind of people.
That's why I want a mental health police. Going to therapy, psychiatry or both is not enough. It's time people take good responsibility for their behaviors and stop with the toxicity. So long as therapists say "You can't change people" or "People have the right whether to seek therapy or not", the toxic people who hurt roam about, hurting more and more people and making reality seem increasingly hopeless.

"Emotional child abuse has to be banned – the science backs up our instincts"

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...dult-psychosis

[Crypts_Of_The_Mind]

Honestly the bit about "you can't change people" is true. They have to make that choice to WANT to change and then actually do that. You can POSSIBLY help them to understand why they SHOULD want to change, but whether they do it or not, is up to them....and even if they acted as if they changed but didn't really want it, within a short amount of time, they would be back to the same habits.

I understand your pain. I was emotionally neglected n emotionally abused as a child, went on to be raped 3 times, several abusive relationships. I know the pain, but trying to say banning something will make it stop .. is like saying if I dream hard enough the unicorns I dreamt of as being in the sky when I was a kid, will suddenly come prancing on down and play. Not being mean though I know it sounds harsh and I apologise for that, but what I am saying is this: back in 1920, there was a prohibition of alcohol (banning) in the USA due to a constitutional amendment. Did that stop people from drinking? Nope. Drug trafficking is not allowed (banned). Does that stop people from doing it? No.

Pretending that "force feeding" someone a different line of thought will make things better.. that's akin to the abuse the abusers do to us because it's about controlling their minds. Even we didn't just lay down n decide they were right, that we are nothing more than bits of scum for the rest of the world to do with what they will. No, we struggled and clawed our way back up and said "I am important". So, we chose not to change to their will. Force rarely works. Coercion works better sometimes but still not fully. If you want a solid change, it has to come from within more than anywhere else.

Doing something like what Darkness speaks of may work, or it may not. I don't know. I do know this system is broken. But what you propose seems to turn it completely the other direction which would also be just as bad.

See, here's the thing... they as abusers need to face up to what their actions do n understand why that's wrong and see the pain. Us as victims, need to understand we were powerless then because we didn't understand what was happening, but now we will be better informed in future and know what to look for, we need to understand we are all responsible for our decisions in life. We have the power to control our emotions , our actions, our thoughts, our beliefs, our lives... everyone does. When a person is abused, part of that knowledge gets splintered. So you have to figure out how to repair that again. But we are all in control of ourselves, nobody else. We can and do impact each other though and that's both the beauty and agony of life.

Originally Posted by Crypts_Of_The_Mind

Honestly the bit about "you can't change people" is true. They have to make that choice to WANT to change and then actually do that. You can POSSIBLY help them to understand why they SHOULD want to change, but whether they do it or not, is up to them....and even if they acted as if they changed but didn't really want it, within a short amount of time, they would be back to the same habits.

I understand your pain. I was emotionally neglected n emotionally abused as a child, went on to be raped 3 times, several abusive relationships. I know the pain, but trying to say banning something will make it stop .. is like saying if I dream hard enough the unicorns I dreamt of as being in the sky when I was a kid, will suddenly come prancing on down and play. Not being mean though I know it sounds harsh and I apologise for that, but what I am saying is this: back in 1920, there was a prohibition of alcohol (banning) in the USA due to a constitutional amendment. Did that stop people from drinking? Nope. Drug trafficking is not allowed (banned). Does that stop people from doing it? No.

Pretending that "force feeding" someone a different line of thought will make things better.. that's akin to the abuse the abusers do to us because it's about controlling their minds. Even we didn't just lay down n decide they were right, that we are nothing more than bits of scum for the rest of the world to do with what they will. No, we struggled and clawed our way back up and said "I am important". So, we chose not to change to their will. Force rarely works. Coercion works better sometimes but still not fully. If you want a solid change, it has to come from within more than anywhere else.

Doing something like what Darkness speaks of may work, or it may not. I don't know. I do know this system is broken. But what you propose seems to turn it completely the other direction which would also be just as bad.

See, here's the thing... they as abusers need to face up to what their actions do n understand why that's wrong and see the pain. Us as victims, need to understand we were powerless then because we didn't understand what was happening, but now we will be better informed in future and know what to look for, we need to understand we are all responsible for our decisions in life. We have the power to control our emotions , our actions, our thoughts, our beliefs, our lives... everyone does. When a person is abused, part of that knowledge gets splintered. So you have to figure out how to repair that again. But we are all in control of ourselves, nobody else. We can and do impact each other though and that's both the beauty and agony of life.

It's great that you've managed to crawl over that hole, but I'm wondering how the abuser's lives are. They're letting it all out on innocent people who have to literally pay the price for it. If mental health is like the physical body, would you let "limb cutters" continue to roam the street and cut people's limbs off due to envy or I don't know? And then your doctor would say "No one is going to stop this riot so I'm just gonna heal you and hope you'll do OK next time", until they cut off your legs again with no one stopping this riot?
From this point, it's very obvious the police would survey and do all in their efforts to arrest the criminals. If our mental health can be harmed by people, it should be treated the same way as someone who's going to physically hurt you.

I'm not going to continue over and over, to "heal" and "treat" myself, when there are riots out there. I want to fight it. If I'm gonna have to hurt someone who abuses and doesn't learn not to, so be it. They deserve it for not taking responsibility.

[Crypts_Of_The_Mind]

Originally Posted by Vibrating Obsidian

It's great that you've managed to crawl over that hole, but I'm wondering how the abuser's lives are. They're letting it all out on innocent people who have to literally pay the price for it. If mental health is like the physical body, would you let "limb cutters" continue to roam the street and cut people's limbs off due to envy or I don't know? And then your doctor would say "No one is going to stop this riot so I'm just gonna heal you and hope you'll do OK next time", until they cut off your legs again with no one stopping this riot?
From this point, it's very obvious the police would survey and do all in their efforts to arrest the criminals. If our mental health can be harmed by people, it should be treated the same way as someone who's going to physically hurt you.

I'm not going to continue over and over, to "heal" and "treat" myself, when there are riots out there. I want to fight it. If I'm gonna have to hurt someone who abuses and doesn't learn not to, so be it. They deserve it for not taking responsibility.

Ok so let me give you a quick dose of truth as to why the system is broken.

You think jail is a punishment that will cause a person to think twice in future.

What reason do you believe that?

Do you think it is uncomfortable in jail?
Let's analyze that.
Most jails now are equipped with soda machines n TV. Some have more amenities as well. Most jails allow prisoners access to the internet. In jail prisoners have free food, free shelter, free electric, free water, free cable.
Some states now allow something called a conjugal visit which is basically if a prisoner has a significant other, that person is permitted to come at set times in order to have sexual relations with the prisoner so as to prevent the sexual abuse within the prisons.

Perhaps you think having their rights taken for an extended period of time will make them think twice?
As odd as it sounds, after a time, a person adapts to losing their rights. After this adaptation when they are suddenly released n given their rights back and basically told, "go now, live free" ... it is confusing and terrifying to the person if they have been locked up too long. Many will commit crimes at that point just for the reason to get back in jail So...at that point, abuse becomes a "tool" to get what the person feels they need to survive. So now you have someone committing abuse in order to survive bc their mind is that messed up, and the victim that was just abused with a messed up mind needing to figure out how to survive ... both looking at a world they don't understand n being scared n just reacting.

So ... We need to fix the system instead of creating more problems, prevent them. Maybe Darkness has a good idea.

Originally Posted by Crypts_Of_The_Mind

Ok so let me give you a quick dose of truth as to why the system is broken.

You think jail is a punishment that will cause a person to think twice in future.

What reason do you believe that?

Do you think it is uncomfortable in jail?
Let's analyze that.
Most jails now are equipped with soda machines n TV. Some have more amenities as well. Most jails allow prisoners access to the internet. In jail prisoners have free food, free shelter, free electric, free water, free cable.
Some states now allow something called a conjugal visit which is basically if a prisoner has a significant other, that person is permitted to come at set times in order to have sexual relations with the prisoner so as to prevent the sexual abuse within the prisons.

Perhaps you think having their rights taken for an extended period of time will make them think twice?
As odd as it sounds, after a time, a person adapts to losing their rights. After this adaptation when they are suddenly released n given their rights back and basically told, "go now, live free" ... it is confusing and terrifying to the person if they have been locked up too long. Many will commit crimes at that point just for the reason to get back in jail So...at that point, abuse becomes a "tool" to get what the person feels they need to survive. So now you have someone committing abuse in order to survive bc their mind is that messed up, and the victim that was just abused with a messed up mind needing to figure out how to survive ... both looking at a world they don't understand n being scared n just reacting.

So ... We need to fix the system instead of creating more problems, prevent them. Maybe Darkness has a good idea.

That's definitely something to think of, thanks for that.
But it doesn't have to be prison, though. We could come up with a new system.