It's all a lie. Honestly.

Oh, yeah. I forgot about Rader. Of course, killing and infamy were his outlets, which he protected by using his family as part of the facade. They were convenient to him until the end, therefore he never lost motive to keep up the act ... until he gave into vanity, I should say.

It takes a considerable amount of effort to maintain a well-crafted facade for an extended period of time, especially when you need several masks for different people. Rader allowed his mask to drop in front of his victims, and that was probably enough of a relief for him that he could maintain it when it was necessary. But I can't exactly let my little monster out to play whenever it gets restless. I would like to have outlets that are not so murderous.

All psychopaths are proud of their ability to raid the cookie jar.

Maybe it would help to explore the source of your rage and what triggers your rage.

If it is a PTSD type of situation that occurred in the past that will never occur again, it would help to explore the entire circumstances - a little at a time. If you can, learn about the life circumstances and struggle of anyone who may have been involved - just to see what brought them (and you) to that place in time.

If it is an ongoing problem in your life, try to avoid the triggers. If that's impossible, learn to recognize the triggers. Practice working on a new immediate response to them that will buy you some time. Find an activity that will give you the physical/emotional release and benefit you without harming others. When others are harmed, it will carry consequences that very well could set off your triggers and make your life miserable. It's up to you if you want to live your life in a vicious circle.

I'm just throwing things out there, in case you can use them. If I'm way off base, go ahead and throw me out of the game. Good luck.

I have a room full of cheap, breakable trinkets and a baseball bat. Works wonders. I can't always make it to the room in time, though. And sometimes it's a person that provokes the rage.

I don't think there is any specific trigger or reason. I just get in an irritable mood and anything will set me off. If I feel one of these moods come on, I'll just leave the area, if in public, and try to calm down.

It's just the way I am.

That would be effective - poor trinkets. You might want to balance that out a little with something more soothing, like art/music/dance, a hobby or something like gardening . It's also a good way to release extreme emotion.

I'm wondering if my twin is a psychopath. She is incredibly lacking in empathy and intensely controlling. I'm the opposite, intensely empathetic and submissive. When I told her our grandfather molested me when we were small she told me it wasn't her problem. I felt like it was a family issue, relevant to her relationships too. When I pressed that it was in fact important information to her, she drew the issue back to herself and speculated that she'd been molested. She felt that was a more important issue. She was our mother's favorite. I'm wondering how much of her antipathy had to do with survival in a cruel environment. How painful would it be for a child to see someone they loved constantly being hurt or tormented, sometimes in a life or death way? What better way to protect the self that to completely eliminate any feeling for others. If you don't feel for them, it won't hurt you. That brings up the need to control others as well. Being dominant and in control of everyone is another way to protect yourself from events. I'm wondering if professionals have ever studied that angle. Like amnesia is one of our minds ways of protecting us from emotional or mental pain, perhaps psychopathy is another way to protect oneself from the pain of people who are important to us. It would develop over time naturally if a person was in a violent family and was repeatedly exposed to the suffering of others that they had to, as a survivial characteristic, ignore. My sister was forced to see my abuse as normal and deserved. I remember things my mother would say and see how my sister was conditioned to let me suffer and feel nothing for it. I was often blamed for making someone feel angry or causing them to do something bad. My twin was taught that it was to do with me, that she was somehow better and that's why she wasn't hurt. Is it possible psychopathy is a result of one parent forcing a child to accept cruelty to another member of the family? Then the mind would protect itself by turning the emotions off and embracing the violence through that conditioning. Just speculating at this point. If it were true, knowing about that conditioning would enable a person to reverse it with work over time. Like amnesia can be healed perhaps psychopathy can as well. I know many people will dismiss this on site but haven't things we've understood in the past been proven wrong before?

Firstly, my condolences for your troubles in childhood.

That's true that people can learn psychopathic behavior through experience which is probably the case with your twin. People who are born as psychopaths are another type of predator entirely. With primary psychopathy, experience can shape the behavior, but the basic characteristics ... lack of empathy, lack of conscience, callousness, remorselessness, etc... is innate. In such cases, the brain tissue that allows most people to experience empathy and guilt is simply not present in the psychopathic brain.

On a brighter note, there's a good chance that your twin isn't a primary psychopath and, if she desires help, has a much better chance of healing than if she were a primary psychopath.

[quote=Myers;1465109]Firstly, my condolences for your troubles in childhood.

Thank you...

You have certainly shined a light on my situation. I was genuinely confused and upset at my sister's lack of compassion throughout our lives but if she Cannot feel for my pain I will not be as hurt by her apathy. I have actually had the breathe shocked out of me at her calousness. I look forward to following you to see how you cope. My sister and I actually have an ok relationship most of the time.

I have to laugh when I think of a guy she got close to online who called her out on her personality. He nailed her for being controlling when she talked of "managing people" and said she was intelligent and charismatic but completely lacking in any ability to empathize. She turned to me and said, "Can you believe he said that!" My jaw dropped! I reminded her of the times she'd been cruel and unfeeling to me when I needed and deserved comforting and she said, "when are you going to get over that?" and blew me off. I just said, "there you go...". I had already accepted her 'as is' but it helps to have a possible explanation. I love this guy too for telling her things I couldn't and indeed wouldn't try to tell her. Also, she bought a book for me to read (to help me change my evil ways) Walking on Eggshells. She read it first and said she realized it was about her, not me. Occasionally she'll realize her cruelty is wrong but she always returns to it as if it is, in fact, compulsive.

For the record, I love my sister and have learned to carefully navigate her moods. I have to say, I do actively take steps to protect myself when I see the signs she's going to come after me emotionally. You are certainly making an effort online. You seem to be teaching more than learning. I hope it matters to you that we want you to be successful in living with your condition. I've read other posts and it seems I'm not alone in wanting you to be happy. If your family is educated about your condition you will receive better support and they will be better people for what they've learned. Love or no love, you are connected to them. For myself, I really appreciate you!

Thank you for your support, and I'm glad I could be of some help to your situation. And I am learning a lot.

Even though your sister may not be a primary psychopath, that doesn't mean she isn't struggling with compassion and empathy. It seems to me, from what you have described, that her upbringing had a big impact on her interpersonal relationships to the point where she does not feel safe or comfortable expressing compassion for other people, thus pushes them away. Of course, these are merely speculations based on the information you've given me, and I couldn't say that she most definitely is or isn't a psychopath.

The best to you and your sister.

Greetings,

It is quite clear that you are good person, for truly bad people do not worry if they are hurting others. In fact, they do not even stop to think twice about it. Not to mention, ever regret any poor behavior/action(s) which they have inflicted upon others and/or themselves.

Of course, I believe there have not/will not ever be a person who will ever truly exist on Earth, during it's short existance, yet only some people who succumb to bad influence/s, thus resulting in bad behavior/actions. No more, no less.

Have a good one.

Your question seems a philosophical one, comparable to the question whether a falling tree makes sound or not if there's nobody around to hear it.

Is a psychopath evil because he lacks the capability to feel empathy and love and is filled with rage, hatred and anger? Or is a psychopath evil because of the harm he causes by his actions?
It all depends on what an individual cares to define as evil.

My personal view is that it are the actions that define good or evil, not the intentions, nor the feelings, not the beliefs. The figurative road to hell is paved with actions stemming from good intentions.

If you have a relationship with your wife where you do not abuse her emotionally, mentally, physically and/or financially, then you are not an evil man for her imo. However, if you are controlling towards her, then that implies at the very least any of the above through lies, gaslighting, blaming her for your own wrongdoings, isolation from family and friends, emotional blackmail, etc... all of these things are harmful, even if she feels love and is happy at times.

Could you be your true self with her, without doing her harm? I doubt that. And you seem to know it, otherwise you would not act the part.

On the other hand... the part you play, the reality you create, they are a deception and therefore a lie, and in the long run creating a false reality is harmful towards the partner, because for her her emotions are real, her hopes are real, etc... For your wife I believe it is harmful to live an illusion, involving hope that you may understand her one day.

Moreover, because of the lack of empathy, she may believe to understand you, but you cannot understand her. Chances are high that you cross her boundaries often because of low impulse control and narcism, even unwillingly, because you lack understanding of her emotional well being, her needs (which may differ from her wants). She may not even recognize for herself the deep wounds this may inflict upon her. And you are unable to see it, because you lack the empathy for it.

A relationship between healthy individuals is not easy to begin with. Empathy, respecting boundaries, taking responsibility, ... are important keys to make any living arrangement work long term. You are incapable of any of those key elements. That does not make you necessarily evil, but dangerous and harmful to the ultimate wellbeing of any person who has to live with you.

Evil is a hypocritical notion of the controlling paradigm.

As for your question, however... It reminds me of a case I read ages ago. Robinson v. California, I believe. Robinson was convicted of having a drug addiction by California state law. The conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court, which stated that it is cruel and unusual to punish someone for a status. In Robinson's case, this meant his status as "addict". In the case of psychopaths, it's our diagnosis.

Is it evil to unwittingly do something "wrong" when one never intended the outcome? If someone accidentally kills his friend in a hunting accident, do we charge him the same as the person who intentionally emptied a round of ammo into another person?

Of late, I've been wondering what exactly manipulation is. What is "normal" manipulation, or "persuasion"? And to what degree does that have to escalate before it becomes psychopathic? Many people have noted that I'm manipulative, but I don't often intend to do this, and I can't seem to grasp what exactly makes my statements manipulative. However, I have noticed its effects. Without trying and without intending to do so, I've created divisions in whole communities. I hardly even said anything, and I don't understand from where the troubles came. And I've created mass followings and "mob mentality" in other communities, which would be nice if I wanted to be a cult leader. But I don't. I don't want empty shells of people who follow me unquestioningly. It's... boring... Unfortunately, that's starting to happen in the community in which I currently reside. After the rumours started to spread, I've decided to be more open about myself, and I've gotten some rather curious reactions...

I admit that I do "gaslight" my wife, but not with the intent to drive her mad (arguably, if one considers the strictest definition of "gaslighting", then I don't, in fact, gaslight her). I tell her that I'm doing it. She doesn't mind, and has even taken to returning the gesture. So, in the end, it becomes more like harmless pranks than anything.

I admit that I lie a lot, but my actions are considerably more damaging when I'm being honest. Normals don't want the truth. They want to be coddled with a lie. I don't lie to my wife, however. And she doesn't try to coddle me with pleasant lies, which I appreciate. Sure, I tell her that I love her, and maybe I can't experience love as most people do. But I don't do this with the intention to deceive. It's simply how I portray what I do feel.

I don't isolate her from her family, even though my mother-in-law is simply insufferable. I admit to my wrong doings. And I don't blackmail her with emotions or anything else.

I may not have a conscience, but I have contrived my own sort of principles. I can be heinously cruel to people, or I can be genuinely pleasant. But I like to believe I have control over that behaviour, for the most part. I don't use my psychopathic nature to attack people, but rather to protect myself and those close to me (and, occasionally, strangers, depending on the situation). That doesn't mean, however, that I don't enjoy being psychopathic.

I'm willing to give it a shot, and I'll let her be the judge.

P.S. Yes, a tree does make a sound, regardless of the presence or absence of people. Reality is not exclusive to human experience.

You make a compelling argument, and I laud you for that. It goes back to "is faking empathy enough?" Is she getting what she needs from this relationship?

I'm having trouble absorbing this right now what with work and all, and this deserves my full attention. But I'll get back to you soon.

Reality is democratic. If enough people perceive a concept to be true, the concept is promoted to the objective. While I believe a falling tree makes a sound despite my absence, I do so based on faith, a subjective concept since I am unable to independently verify a sound was made.

The tree analogy is solved by the way a person defines 'sound'. If a person defines sound as a physical event including soundwaves, then the person will argue there needs to be no listener for there to be sound. If a person regards 'sound' as a listerener's experience, then the person will argue the tree made no sound without a listener.

For me 'evil' actions are harmful ones with the intent to harm. I do not see the legal comparison as truly relevant. Yes, plenty of psychopaths dabble in the illegal, but not all. You wondered yourself though the impact of your disorder within your personal relations. So, the question remains whether you are at the very least 'harmful', even if not 'evil' to those personally connected to you.

I draw the line in who I allow in my life based on them being harmful or not. I cut and shut out friends who have done me harm by their actions even if those actions were prompted by their loving intentions. But at least I think the only one who has the right to mess up my life is me, no one else. No, they are not bad, or evil, or criminals. I do not look down on them. But they are harmful, because they either do not recognize boundaries or do not respect them, and I feel I have the right to protect my life from harm and my boundaries.

Well written and articulated;

Sounds to me like anger also, which is usually from 1.Hurt 2.fear 3. fustration 4.injustice.
I'm guessing hurt, thats the candy store of anger for most of us.
You sound overwhelmed to me. I would , if it was me, step back from societal responsibility, whereever possible that is, and start dealing with inner unresolved issues, through maybe groups, maybe traditional therapy, do a journal daily, learn and practice meditation/spiritual practice(my candystore)and pray to your god.
If nothing else, you can help "find yourself",gain quiet time, and relieve some stress. BB

MTG I would just like to c0mmend you on your post. I admire your honesty...

A relativist, an absolutist, and a universalist don't hear a tree fall in the woods... Perhaps I should incite a falling tree debate...

Which begs the question, do all psychopaths cause harm by nature, intentionally or otherwise? And can we control our actions?

I brought up the case because psychopathy, at its very core, is merely the lack of a well developed conscience and certain emotions. It isn't something we can control and it isn't a set of damaging behaviours (although certain behaviours may contribute to the diagnosis of psychopathy). It's a status, essentially. And, as the Supreme Court decided in the Robinson case, it is unethical to punish someone for a status. By that logic, a psychopath cannot be punished for being a psychopath. He (or she) can only be judged by his (or her) actions.

How so? My affection toward her is genuine. I do honestly care for her, even if I have selfish intentions; i.e., enjoying the pleasure of her company. And it makes her happy.

Perhaps. Fortunately, my therapist helps me with this, and I have many outlets for my impulses. As for my wife, even my mother-in-law has commented on the fact that Nikki's boundaries are much stronger now than before she met me. And my mother-in-law hates me.

I am capable of certain emotions. When my boundaries are violated, I experience irritation. I can logically deduce that other people experience similar emotions (probably to more extreme degrees) in similar situations. The rest I learn from observing human behaviour. I can also logically deduce that the best way to maintain our relationship is to do things which make my wife happy, like not be a selfish jackass. Many a philosopher has made clear that where oppression exists, there will be war. That holds true for relationships as well.

Maybe hurt. Probably overwhelmed. I wrote this thread quite some time ago, and I was, at the time, inflicted with a temporary moody. It usually happens when I'm reminded of the gravity of my condition, mostly the mere fact that there are things I'm not capable of experiencing and/or understanding. To use a rather tired cliché, it's like a blind man trying to understand colours. It is, at times, very frustrating. But, like a blind man, I get over it and learn to use what abilities I have.

Psychopaths still have cognitive abilities that differentiate them from animals who merely act on instinct, just as much as non-disordered personalities do. As you yourself mentioned, you can still think through that which angers and hurt you will likewise hurt and upset another human being, even if you do not feel it, and therefore remain responsible for your behaviour and actions irregardless whether or not you have lower impulse control, and can be held accountable for it, legally or functionally by any human being whom boundaries you may infringe.

True. So, can for example a person who disrespects the boundaries of others, after they have been clearly expressed, for their own entertainment, wishing to debate those boundaries and blaming them for these boundaries, irregardless of their pathology, be ousted and rejected by the very people whose boundaries were disrespected, especially when they can logically deduce they may be causing pain?

In Powell V.Texas, 392 U.S. 514 (1968), the Supreme Court dealt with alcoholism rather than drug addiction as in the Robinson v. California, 370 U. S. 660 (1962) case. The majority stated:

The entire thrust of Robinson's interpretation of the Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause is that criminal penalties may be inflicted only if the accused has committed some act, has engaged in some behavior, which society has an interest in preventing, or perhaps, in historical common law terms, has committed some actus reus. It thus does not deal with the question of whether certain conduct cannot constitutionally be punished because it is, in some sense, "involuntary" or "occasioned by a compulsion." Page 392 U. S. 534

One law review article states: "Powell arguably represents the Court's acceptance of the position that involuntary conduct may not be punished." Valparaiso University Law Review, Vol. 4, No. 1 [1969], Art. 3, page 86. http://scholar.valpo.edu/cgi/viewcon...9&context=vulr

While Powell v. Texas court made the distinction between a public behavior and a physical condition, it did not specifically overrule Robinson.

It appears to me psychopaths may not be sanctioned criminally for their status but remain open to prosecution for their actions. Psychopathy is not recognized in the DSM. There is evidence psychopaths know right from wrong, and have the capacity to refrain from criminal conduct.

Exactly.

Occasionally, I do have rather intense urges which are difficult for me to control. Nigh impossible, I'd say. When I indulge in these urges, my actions are often intended to harm certain individuals. I haven't quite pinpointed what characteristics these people share, but I've noticed things such as people who feign happiness and perfection (almost like Stepford wives or husbands), attention *****s, naivety, arrogance (narcissists are a real treat )... in general, people who feel incredibly insecure and are in denial of that fact. And, strangely, other psychopaths who step into my territory uninvited (challenger!)... Ehem... But I digress... I might post about that particular side of me in another thread...

Even during these urges, I can maintain enough self-discipline to not get arrested (most of the time), therefore my actions are not entirely involuntary. That being said, I agree. Even at my worst, I should be held accountable for my actions because I'm well aware of what I'm doing and I have some control over it.

I wouldn't say animals merely act on instinct, but sure...

I'm going to rephrase the statement to try to get a better grasp of it's meaning... If I'm off the mark, please indicate so...

Well, you see, that depends on the situation. If the boundaries were clearly expressed and the defendant had intent to disrespect those boundaries even after they were clearly stated, sure. But, if the parties involved "expressed their boundaries" by shamelessly insulting and demeaning the defendant, not to mention implying that the defendant should kill himself and that he "sucked d***", it isn't difficult to see how such "expressions" might be misconstrued as personal attacks.

Furthermore, if the original source material, written false claims that openly attacked a disorder with which the defendant was inflicted, not only provoked the defendant but defamed his character and caused distress in his daily life, is that not an unethical breach of boundaries? Does the defendant not have a right to defend himself against such accusations?

I would think that one respects boundaries expressed, whichever the intent is to breach it. By disrespecting it, people forfeith the right to be treated respectfully in return. A breach of boundaries is a breach of boundaries is a breach of boundaries. Or as they say, "No" means "No".

Everything else seems like excuses to me to disrespect them or to blame people for putting up boundaries.

So, you disagree with source material on your disorder? I do understand how source material on psychopathy in general may be upsetting. And it must be difficult to reason the source material is not about you. After all, the disorder would involve narcistic traits within you and therefore an innate difficulty to regard it as not being 'just' about you. Is not the source material the reason why you have been diagnozed with the disorder in the first place? And unfortunately the diagnosis cannot have been made without a history research and research of questionnaires filled in by people in your environment.

It was nice to have this polite exchange. Thank you for the invitation to this thread. Since, you are not a person in my life, I commend you for your self-proclaimed efforts to live with the disorder without causing more harm. I wish you much succes to putting it in practice, both for yourself as for the people in your life and those who come into contact with you or whom you contact. Without it being personal, I prefer to go no contact with you after this post to go back in dealing with my PSTD caused by a relationship with a person who highly probably is a psychopath.

Goodbye.

Ah, but I was respectful initially, and yet was met with blatant rudeness. Only two people kindly asked me to leave, and that was long after the first insults and the suggestion that I kill myself. If you would like respect, you must give it. Ethic of reciprocity and all that... All in all, the conversation went something like this...

"Hello, I'm Michael, a psychopath. I'd like to comment on this..."
"Oh, it's the slimy spath. He has no life."
"What a wanker."
"It is here again."
"Red flag #5 billion: He sucks ****"
"Oh, how I would like to kill a spath."
"Say, if a spath wants to feel something authentic, I'd recommend it to shoot itself in the head."
"Thank you for commenting. Could you leave, please."

Hmmm..... Now you imagine, for a moment, using your amazing skills of empathy, that you were me. Actually, you can do this without having to imagine. Just create an account at Lovefraud.com the blog and sign "Regards, Michael D." after whatever you decide to write.

Heavens no. Truthful source material doesn't upset me at all. I agree with the vast majority of Hare's work, and it was Hare's source material that got me diagnosed. The only issue I take with his studies is the sample, considering most of the participants were prisoners, who have another mindset entirely. But sensationalized BS that has no scientific backing whatsoever is infuriating, especially when my moronic neighbour (God rest him), knowing I'm a psychopath, incessantly harassed me and my wife and slandered my name. Later, he recommended the book and site LoveFraud to my wife, encouraging her to "take the kids and run." So, I know that site isn't written about me specifically. But it does affect me specifically.

I own my diagnosis. I know I'm a psychopath. But some of the asinine comments made about my disorder are just... ridiculous.

Hi Michael,

I always find your posts to be interesting and thought provoking. I think that society has done a "great" job of glamourizing the psychopath - that is, making every psychopath appear to be a bloodthirsty killer/rapist/cannibal/whatever. So when people think psychopath, they think, major criminal. That being said, however, even those who don't commit big crimes, aren't the majority of psychopaths unlike you? By that I mean, they don't try to control their symptoms and live a normal life. I hope you don't mind me labelling them as "symptoms", just don't know how else to phrase it.

So while I completely agree that those comments are way too far, it doesn't really surprise me to see them. I mean, how many people have watched a tv show or movie about the psychopath who says "Hey, I may be a psychopath, but I'm going to resist my urges and live a decent life...free of crime!" And then the audience cheers, breaks into song and dance...OK, I'm letting my imagination run wild.

Also, how many psychopaths are so open with their diagnosis? I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but I wonder if some interpret that as someone who is not only proud of their label, but also someone who is proud to act on that label. So perhaps the assumption from others about you is that you are the classic, criminal psychopath. Just a thought I wanted to put out there.