What is perfectionism really?

I have several perfectionists near me. I would say they are not mentally healthy in this aspect. When you think perfectionist, you might think keeping things tidy. It goes far beyond that. It is a total lack of greyscale. Either things are perfect (never), or they are really bad (pretty much always). This shines through on almost every level in their lives.

You could claim OCPD but I don't think it covers their behaviors.

Wiki mentions symptoms as being a workaholic and always miserable. This fits to some degree. Also mentions things as always only right or wrong, might fit a little as well.

According to Wiki, at least four of these must be present:

Is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost.
Shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met).
Is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity).
Is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification).
Is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value.
Is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things.
Adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes.
Shows rigidity and stubbornness.

None of them is a list maker.
Sometimes they meet their standards (at a high cost), sometimes not.
Some are devoted to work.
Some are having strict moral values.
None have issues with throwing things away.
They delegate tasks but get angry when it is not done to perfection.
All have very bad issues with money, the opposite to the diagnosis, they can't make money last.
They are stubborn in that that they want reality to change for them.

Still I think DSM misses something that I feel is the core of this. These people suffer a lot, people around them suffer a lot.

ICD has this:

feelings of excessive doubt and caution;
preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedule;
perfectionism that interferes with task completion;
excessive conscientiousness, scrupulousness, and undue preoccupation with productivity to the exclusion of pleasure and interpersonal relationships;
excessive pedantry and adherence to social conventions;
rigidity and stubbornness;
unreasonable insistence by the individual that others submit exactly to his or her way of doing things or unreasonable reluctance to allow others to do things;
intrusion of insistent and unwelcome thoughts or impulses.

They doubt a lot and rerun decisions in their heads a million times and drive people crazy asking them if it is right.
Yet again, no lists.
Same as above about task completion.
All do not put productivity before relations, but all put perfection before relations, EVEN when it is the relation they want perfect.
Stubborn yes.
No one understands that things CAN be do a different way than theirs.
No unwelcome thoughts, they all invite rumination.

If someone is actually really suffering from perfectionism, but does not live up to OCPD, what do they HAVE?

There are many people that think they are perfect and are chronically obsessed with letting people know how perfect they are and how imperfect everyone else is.

I am not sure what they suffer from but I am careful to protect myself from buying into there delusions and lowering my own self esteem.

I do not argue with them, I say less and plan an appropriate retreat. Psych Central is one such retreat.

It's more like they are addicted to perfection, but they can never find it. It's like the world is just black and white and every time a black pixel enters a white screen they see it like the whole screen is black.

And yes, those people suffer. Quite a bit. I'm not talking about narcissism here.

I used to be a perfectionist in several areas of my life. I'd call it more of a thought pattern and a learned way of dealing with things. It took training from bosses in jobs and also coming to terms with the fact that there's not enough time available to do everything perfectly to get me to stop most of the behavior.

When I'd be doing a task and feeling that perfectionism sort of feeling (anxiety of a type, I suppose) I would over-focus on the task and feel unable to look at what else was going on around me that might need attention.

It was having certain unrealistic standards to a large extent. I would forget to think about things like "what else needs doing?" "what might be better to spend my time on?" "how much $$ (time) is this task worth?" and especially to pay attention to when something is "good enough".

I think sometimes if someone else doesn't help a perfectionist to learn to shift gears and look past the task they are working on that it can be hard for them to learn to do that.

Sometimes time pressures will make them learn on their own. They have to change their way of thinking to value, say, two "good enough" tasks or projects done in the same time as it would take them to do one "perfectly".

I suppose it may look like OCD behavior. I don't know whether that's what it really is. For me it was more of a case of unexamined beliefs and standards.

Jimi, the description you're posted seems to me to overlap perfectionism with Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. I believe that often people with such strong perfectionistic/ocdp tendencies are narcissists. VERY difficult people, very bullying.

Yes, their standards are really high. One wants her life to be different from the beginning, but you cannot go back in time. The other one strives for perfection at work and also total normalcy at home. She always gets mad at her family because they are not totally normal and she feels shame. Both also want to be skinny and beautiful.

I really wish I could help them break this pattern because they are pushing people away and that makes them unhappier.

I don't think this is OCD at all.

The problem I have with the OCPD diagnosis is that it is a mix of narcissism or similar AND perfectionism. It doesn't seem like a pure diagnosis, more a mix of things.

These people are not narcissistic. They have quite bad self esteem. They are self oriented out of worry. They don't seem to really want to hurt others. They are just so wrapped up in their own stuff that they forget other people's needs.

My definition of perfectionism for myself is that I want to do a job or a task perfect (no mistakes)......at least that's my goal....but I have always felt that if my goal is to be perfect & I don't make it at least I will end up a lot closer to having done an excellent job on something than if I had lower standards.

My H always wanted to JUST GET BY in doing stuff....then I would always have to do it over because what he did never worked or broke immediately....I promised myself I would never hold those low standards for myself. Even at work, I put a lot more time into the design end of my engineering firmware & the programming flowed & I had less debug time than the other engineers. I was always better at the design end anyway than trying to figure out what was broke or how to fix it......so I always aimed at that initial perfect/ or at least excellent job on everything I do.

However sometimes for some perfectionists, it they feel they can't do a perfect job they won't do it at all.....I never allow myself to go there.

When I said "someone help them" I meant someone in a position to do that, like a boss or a therapist. I don't think a friend or relative can take on this task. I don't think the perfectionistic person would listen. Not most of the time, anyway.

Honestly, it's NOT your place to help them break this pattern. You might be able to mention to them that it seems to you that they are pushing people away by their behavior & that you observe that it's making them unhappier.....but in reality....it comes down to their wanting to change in the first place....maybe they are satisfied with their life the way it is or maybe they don't want to put the effort into any change that might be needed.

Also the complexity of issues that are underlying things like this go far beyond just an untrained person's abilities to deal with......we can only offer them our perception of how we see them & suggest that they get help....but in the end...it ALL UP TO THEM.

I said I wish I could, I didn't say I could.

But my initial question is why something common and very devastating is not an "illness". It is like really bad and destructive self esteems isn't an illness either. Like, if not, what IS?

A common misunderstanding about narcissists is that they really believe they are as fab as they want others to believe. Truthfully, most narcissists are deeply and profoundly insecure.

I'm a perfectionist. Me and my therapist talk about it all the time. What you wanna know?

I'm not sure I know anymore what I wanted to know...

Well for me no matter what i do in the world nothing i do is ever good enough. When i meet my standards of "good" i just create new standards. Its a forever trial of just being terrible at everything i do.

Same goes with socializing dating everything. If i approach a girl and she doesn't respond in the perfect manner i think im undateable.

Behavior is not illness, just symptoms of an illness. All of what you describe are forms of anxiety, having the illusion that we are in control or can be in control of our environment and/or ourselves and others. Like most other mental difficulties, anxiety is on a continuum. Why we want things to be "perfect" and how we define "perfect" make a difference too. If I want to propose to my significant other and want to try and create the "perfect" evening, there is nothing wrong with that. But I think it is our attitude when things don't go exactly as planned that is the key.

My husband took me to a formal garden park to propose and wanted to do it in the main cupola on the grounds but the moment he thought it was right, suddenly a group took over that cupola! Even when he found a smaller one, when he was in the middle of the proposal more people came in it with us. We found it funny but we could have been annoyed or he could have stomped off with an "Everything's ruined!" attitude? I think he and I are so right for one another because we can work well together, could both see the humor in the situation and enjoy that as part of the experience and memory instead of trying to make the situation conform to what we had imagined. My fondest memory of the day is (we'd been living together/dating for 5 years specifically working toward this day) realizing he was proposing to me and my panicked thought, "What do I do? Do I want to marry him?" Fortunately I could see the humor in that thought/panic, too.

Anxiety is a complex beast. My stepmother was a perfectionist and I learned some of that and mixed it with my own innate anxieties. The mixture took several years of therapy to sort out and "fix" so I could live a more comfortable (to me) lifestyle.

It seems very complicated.

It sounds like a book is written and then you have to follow it to the letter.

I know my ways are rigid but I'm still not like that. I'm trying to understand more deeply what it is that drives my friends though. So all input has been much welcome.

Not gonna lie but I didn't read everything (im sorry) (I just read title and first sentences)

But I think perfectionism as 2 things

1. Neurotic perfectionism
2. Healthy perfectionism

Neurotic perfectionism = unhealthy need for something to be perfect. For example I am aware im a neurotic perfectionist and I noticed that I've micromanaged people in group projects to the point I ended up doing all the work because I'm scared they'll mess up which is really bad lol.. I do that with other projects too and I do all nighters and stay up late to do it. Depending on my mood like if I am manic I can actually get things done and be productive but when I'm very irritated I would hyper focus and be unhappy with all the things I've done rip it up start over and over. Essays writing drafts of the same thing over and over. I know it's irrational it doesn't have to be perfect but I get so distressed. I think the root of this issue is bc of living Under an abusive authoritative dad lol.

The healthy perfectionist is like the neurotypical kids in AP classes who studies and do all their work and get A's but they're still generally content satisfied with their work and able to do things without it negatively impairing their life while still achieving a sort of satisfaction in their work or what they do. (Sorry im generalizing)

I don't think there's 1 exact term it's like a gray area and it's like spectrum different levels of it Ya know

It is my belief, that people with low self esteem, use "Perfectionism" as a mask. It's a cover up to fit in.

Thanks guys, yes I also think low self esteem might have something to do with it.

I'm not sure about low self-esteem being a cause but it might be like that for other people i dont know.

I know people with these problems and therapy did not help them. In fact, I think they became worse and the T fed into their perfectionism by telling them
how great they thought they were. Even tried to teach their perfectionist client manipulative tactics to use with people to get them to conform to their "perfectionists" ways. The T took a shine to their ocd client, could not see beyond their nose, and actually assisted them in believing they were "perfect" (when no one is). Some really SICK people that I know.

Maybe the T has the same problem as their client? Must be why they got along so well.

maybe a perfectionist needs to lower their standards? I don't mean to do not as good as you can but do it slower and less anxiouslly. i used to be a perfectionist before i got sick mentally, and i think it is one of the things that led to my problems good luck

Hayla, do you hold others to the standard of perfectionism you hold yourself to?

nah, i could careless how other people work or what their standards are. They are their own individual and can choose and live how they wish.