[Draffon]

Hi there,

I am posting in this hopes of getting some opinions (and yes, I know that no one who is not a psychiatrist can diagnose anyone, etc. I just want some opinions) on wether or not I may suffer from ASPD. This is, so far, the only forum I can find that has much to say about ASPD. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I am a 24 year old male. My father was stereotypically abusive. For example, he tried to strangle me to death when I was 14 (for taking a shower that delayed our departure to a store...), the standard hitting when angry across the face, etc. He was also abusive towards animals and nearly beat one of our dogs to death when I was little for rolling around in a dead animal corpse. This is in addition to shooting cats and birds and the like. He constantly verbally abused my mother and sister by calling them fat, lazy, and such. When I was a bit older (and bigger), I turned around and punched him out when he tried to hit me one day. After that, he never hit me again. However, he did try to physically abuse my younger brother several years later, but I put a stop to that. A therapist told me that he sounded like an "anti social narcissist". That about sums up my father.

Now, about myself. I have a genius level intellect. I have no drug or alcohol problems (I consider retreating to those to be rather contemptible), nor am I suicidal. I do, however, seem to lack certain emotions, to the point I feel empty or numb. I am never happy (but I am not depressed), for example. Multiple people have told me they have never seen me happy, and a few have called me a sociopath (since I act so cold). When close family members have died, I literally felt nothing. I wasn't sad at their passing. I didn't cry. I mainly wanted the funeral to hurry up and end so I could eat. And I have never even missed the people who have died. I imagine a member of my immediate family dying, even, and I simply don't care.

The one emotion I know I feel is anger. I get furious when I see someone harming an animal or a child (I would start fights in grade school when I witnessed animal abuse). But I can honestly say that I don't think I have ever experiences grief, happiness, loneliness, or fear. I do experience nervousness on occassion, but I can't remember the last time I was afraid.

I can be very arrogant, especially about my intelligence in relation to others (though I try to keep that under control). I seem to lump people into one of two categories: "interesting" and "uninteresting". The majority of people fall into the "uninteresting" category, and I do not consider them worth my time in regards to interacting with them (and I honestly could not care less what happens with them or their lives. This applies even to family members). I try to refrain from doing it, but I find it very easy to manipulate people into doing what I want.

I have problems holding jobs, typically because I get bored. There isn't a lot in the typical job that can challenge me mentally, and I generally find the people I work with to be boring. I never get fired, since I always do my job to the best of my ability, but I will look for something else that I find interesting, and leave for it. Always with two weeks notice, as I am very big on courtesy and politeness when interacting with people.

Regarding impulsive purchasing...I can be bad about that. On occasion, I will want (and have done so a few times) to move to a new city, chosen almost at random. Simply because I am bored with the current one.

When I was young, I used to have violent, detailed fantasies and dreams regarding my father, but I haven't had those in years. I have no particular desire to hurt people, and I am quite fond of animals. I even get along well with children. If I am physically attacked/threatened, however, I enjoy responding violently, and take almost sadistic pleasure in it.

I have been in a relationship for going on 2 years now, and no problems there. I can be a bit too controlling at times, but I work hard at managing it. I am unsure if I even feel love, though. I haven't ever really been around two people in love, so I am not sure what it is. I have been away for months at a time, and I don't really feel longing or loneliness.

Anyway, my two questions are: 1) Does it sound like I have ASPD? If not, any other ideas? and 2) If it does sound like ASPD, does therapy work? Or are there any treatment options that can help someone with it to experience the normal range emotions? I am growing to really hate the emptiness.

Thank you for reading.

[pachyderm]

I have not heard of ASPD before. Is it in the DSM? Regardless of any particular diagnosis, what you describe does not seem totally strange to me. Have you tried to find a therapist who is willing to work with you?

Well, like you said-- no one can diagnose you here nor should they, with that said-- I don't think it sounds like you have anti-social personality disorder-- they break laws and rules,have no drive to be upstanding-- sounds like you do and you don't break laws/rules without remorse. You care about animals and do a good job at all the jobs you've had.

I think maybe looking into "schizoid personality disorder" perhaps?-- the lack of emotion and connection(love/friendship) is one of the traits. Also-- have you heard of "attachment disorder"? It's mainly described in children but recently has been realized that those that had it as children still show similar signs as adults when untreated.

About you getting a sort of "pleasure" when fighting with someone that has wronged you--- do you think perhaps your joy comes from the inner-projection that the person you are really defending yourself from is your father?

just some things to think about.....

Oh, and Welcome.

mandy

[Draffon]

Yes, ASPD is in the DSM. Here are the criterion:

1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honor financial obligations
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

As to finding a therapist...that isn't feasible at the moment. Perhaps in a couple months, I can.

>>>they break laws and rules,have no drive to be upstanding-- >>>sounds like you do and you don't break laws/rules without >>>remorse.

In some cases, I have no problem breaking rules and/or laws. It depends on if I agree with them or not. This occurred more often when I was young, and mainly concerned theft from my father. I held him in contempt, so I had no qualms about stealing from him to get something I wanted. I still don't feel guilty about that.

Thanks for pointing out the schizoid and attachment thing. I hadn't heard of them before, but I will look them up.

>>>About you getting a sort of "pleasure" when fighting with >>>someone that has wronged you--- do you think perhaps your >>>joy comes from the inner-projection that the person you are >>>really defending yourself from is your father?

Hm. No, I don't think so. At least, I have never thought about him in any conscious way while fighting. I just seem to like to hurt people that I think deserve it.

Thanks for the replies.

projections are often not conscious-- until someone points them out, we are seldom aware of them....... </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I have never thought about him in any conscious way while fighting. I just seem to like to hurt people that I think deserve it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

one other thing I meant to note was you could also be experiencing PTSD-- post traumatic stress disorder. You seem to have "triggers"-- over react to events that bring back past feelings which occurred from past events.
There is a book by Judith Herman, Trauma and Recovery-- a psychologist I was seeing recommended it. Though it's from mostly experiences of females and sexual abuse, there are sections in it that you might relate to-- being subjected to physical abuse as well as emotional.

I also know of a great website with articles written by a therapist that counsels people with PTSD-- he comes from the background and so can relate very well with the struggles like explosive anger and not getting close to others and other subjects. I can PM(private message) the site to you if you are interested.

mandy

[FnordianSlip]

I know where you're coming from, Draffon. all i can say is take a stupid pill and things will no doubt improve tenfold.

p.s.
to the moderators:
this is not a flippant remark. please do not remove it unless your I.Q. is equal to or greater than mine. that'd be 165 or higher.

[Draffon]

Mandy,

I would appreciate a link to that site.

You are right about me having triggers. Yelling is another. When someone yells at me (something my father used to do very frequently to everyone in my family), I typically respond by saying the most hurtful things I can think of. And I typically know exactly what things to say to hurt someone the most.

That is something I wish I could stop (as I consider it to be uncivilized, not out of remorse for hurting their feelings), and I have tried to stop, but frequently I have said it before I even realize it.

to feel happiness and/or love is not to be dumb nor is to feel anger. </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
take a stupid pill and things will no doubt improve tenfold.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Your comment seems to insinuate that feeling some kinds of emotions equals stupidity......... -- there is a such thing as emotional intelligence...... wonder what your score would be in that...hmmmmmm.....

**not meaning to be flippant either-- just trying to help....

mandy

[FnordianSlip]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mandyfins said:
to feel happiness and/or love is not to be dumb nor is to feel anger. </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
take a stupid pill and things will no doubt improve tenfold.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Your comment seems to insinuate that feeling some kinds of emotions equals stupidity......... -- there is a such thing as emotional intelligence...... wonder what your score would be in that...hmmmmmm.....

**not meaning to be flippant either-- just trying to help....

mandy

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

sorry you misunderstood my post. i'll be more in depth for you. Draffon wrote that he's got a genius level IQ. that's far above average. average IQ is what the majority of people have. Draffon indicated the majority of people bore him, and that he has no feeling for them one way or the other. Draffon is alienated from the average due in part to his above average IQ. were Draffon to take a stupid pill, Draffon would reduce his IQ and then equipped with an average IQ would no longer be uninterested in the affairs and interests of his (then) peers.

incidentally, i have taken an EQ tests in the past and scored rather low due to my lack of interest in engaging people emotionally.
currently according to the test here:

http://www.queendom.com/tests/access...idRegTest=1121

i score average at 111. i suspect the rise has to do with the added feature of photos of groupings of people and stories that go along with them, with questions about what they're feeling in a given situation. i figured i scored well in this section as i have plenty of experience with people and their problems, but my apathy where personal emotional relations is concerned evened me out to the average score.

any more novels i can write for you, just let me know.

[RiverX]

Hi Draffon,
(Hi Mandy,
Hi Fnordian,)
Well, I've enjoyed this thread so far, Fnordian, would it be accurate to say that what you may have a deficit in emotioanal involvement, you make up for with a wry sense of humour?
Draffon, welcome, I think, as Mandy said, it might be worth you looking towards schizoid. In which case, well its a subject I have a hard time resisting.
I have some book recommendations - if you'd like to find out more, both written by pdocs, so they come with - what to me is a fairly dehumanising slant, which they inturn would say thats because I'm schizoid, which implies I have a sensitivity to dehumanisation, and that I'm projecting at them. To which I would probably fail to say anything satisfactory and spend the next month telling them in imaginary conversations the smartest comebacks that I didnt think of then.
(I'm in a flip, humerous mood, and I do realise the serious side of things, I hope you dont feel misresponded to).

Here are the book recommendations:

Masterson and Klein: 'The Disorders of the Self, New Therapuetic Horizons', and : Harry Guntip 'the schizoid phenomenon'. (I've just started that one ) So, much insight in both.

Best of luck, I'd love to know how you get on.

riverx

No, I didn't misunderstand you at all........ too bad you didn't "get" my point........ ah-- what a shame.

I appreciate your honesty in revealing that you do lack in the emotional realm of human intelligence.

Being bored in many cases can be the inability to put oneself in another's place-- if you could think/feel/perceive AS the speaker does-- then -- it could seem more interesting........ however, that is yet another gift that some humans don't possess.

"Beauty in things exist in the mind that contemplates them"--David Hume
It's so much easier to turn away in boredom....

"Tenderness and kindness are not signs of weakness and despair, but manifestions of strength and resolution"--Kahlil Gibran.

No thank you, another of your "novels" is not necessary(nor was your first one)...... they're quite redundant -- I don't care to partake in such banter.
Good day/evening to you.

mandy

[Draffon]

Hi RiverX,

Thanks for the reply. And no, I don't feel misresponded to. Whatever other deficiencies I may have, I do have a well-developed sense of humor. =)

One of the reasons I am looking for opinions is that when/if I am able to see a therapist, I do not want to be diagnosed with depression. Again. I want to be able to intelligently ask questions about other possible conditions and have a better idea if the therapist is simply trying to write me off as another depressive.

I read over some schizoid stuff...and, well, that fits me much more closely than ASPD.

And I can understand Fnordian's point. It is very difficult for people with more than 10-20 IQ points difference to interact in any meaningful way (or so a recent study by...Stanford? Some big college, says). I do not think about the same things as the average person.

They care about American Idol. I think Reality TV is utter garbage. They want to know which one of their friends slept with which other friend. That interests me about as much as watching grass grow.

One thing I do enjoy doing is writing. I constantly have worlds, characters, scenes and such in my head. I can see, in my head, the things I imagine, almost as if I were there. (No, I am not delusional or anything like that.) I read constantly, and I read paragraphs at a time, not sentences. I can read a 600 page novel in less than a day.

Nor do I think the same *way* as the average person does. From what I have observed, my thought patterns are much more...abstract, I guess is the word. I like math and computers, simply because it is fun to visualize the concepts and their interactions in my head. I do a lot of programming, and I can be thinking about multiple concepts at once, including how each will interact with each other at specific points.

(I do not say all this in an attempt to sound arrogant or smart. I am trying to give insight into how I think.)

I really do not understand social interactions. For example...if a girl cheats on her boyfriend, why does the boyfriend go after the guy she slept with? Why do people act differently towards each other outside the workplace as opposed to inside it? Why do schoolkids pick on people new to the school? I could go on. I have not, nor have I ever, understood things like that.

As you may have guessed, I am very direct in real life. I don't generally comment on things unless I am asked (as I don't care enough to waste my time), but when I am, I am very...blunt. My mother calls it tactless (which is another concept I don't understand).

Oddly enough, this seems to have a positive effect in my relationship, and what few friendships I do maintain (two, actually). I maintain them because I find the people interesting, and all of us are very direct.

Well, I didn't mean to ramble on so much. Thanks again for the replies, everyone.

[FnordianSlip]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mandyfins said:
I don't care to partake in such banter.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
perhaps then you shouldn't have pointed your finger at me in the first place, mandyfins.

draffon:
yeah - american idol bores me practically to death too. good luck on your quest.

[Rapunzel]

Draffon, I have never met anyone who had antisocial personality disorder who was worried about having antisocial personality disorder. They may be worried about other concerns that impact them more, maybe like insomnia, but people with ASPD really don't care that they hurt others.

You have a significant trauma history, and emotional numbness is a very typical reaction to trauma. When emotions get to be too much, it makes sense to shut them off. Therapy can definitely help with that.

Fnordian, I think I understand your point. There is a reason that special education includes above average students as well as below average. Both groups tend to have a lot of struggles and to require accomodation to take into account individual abilities and deficits. And just because you have genious level intelligence doesn't mean that your abilities to deal with emotions and social interaction will match. And it's rough when people tend to assume that you have those skills, since you seem intelligent, and they they expect you to be able to perform at a level that isn't appropriate for you. Sometimes intelligence can help you to compensate, but other times it can interfere.

I disagree about being able to have meaningful interactions with people when there is a significant difference in intelligence. It may take empathy and other skills, but it can happen. I have above average intelligence myself (but not good social skills except where I have worked hard to develop specific ones), and I work with developmentally disabled clients. I have meaningful interactions and connection with people even though there is more than 100 points difference in our IQ scores. Yes, we have different interests. I just have to be aware of that, and find out what my client is interested in. That can be a stimulating challenge at times.