[kmarie]

The more I read these stories the more afraid I get. I am involved with atleast the second N that I know of. Do N's ever admit to it? Do they ever love anyone else other than themselves to try to change? Is it a hopeless case? It appears that way in all my reading. I don't want another failed marriage, I don't think me or the kids could take it. No less, I agreed to get my tubes untied and have another baby (6 mo. pregnant right now) because he really wanted a baby. I wanted a product of what I though was our love, but now I question is there love from an N or is it all an act to get their way? I would love to hear all opinions on the matter. Thanks everyone.

[VoNPD]

My father was an N., I married an alcoholic, then a mild N. with Jealousy and posessiveness, then the worst N. ever. After those 3 marriages, I didn't date for a long time. Dated one very nice guy but it didn't work out. were still friends.

Then recently, an old friend came back on the scene. Yep, you guessed it... an N. He emotionally raped me.

So I'm left wondering much of what you are - how is it that I don't recognize N's before it's too late? Surely, I'm working out some garbage leftover from my father.

I will try to add more here as I can, I find my defensiveness is triggered from your story and I'm now feeling very paranoid. Like he's watching - or like maybe you are him (but I know you are not him).

see what can happen if you don't take control NOW!!?? schiz can be the result and you don't want that added to your BPD.

[pachyderm]

Sorry for my ignorance: what is an N?

[jefftele]

narcissists have got to want to change -there is the problem, they are so wonderful aren't they? there is lots of info and books about the disorder and possible treatment, my brother is 55 and a N he would so wish to change and he sure has tried, problem is his self esteem is so fragile and dependent on trashing other people that i don't she it happening. i've just ended a friendship with someone who is a borderline , i convinced myself that i could help and change this person---not a chance ,they have to do it for themselves, my experience has made me realise i'm drawn to people with not just everyday issues ,but big ones-- just like most members of my family---no more for me!

[VoNPD]

Narcissists.

[RiverX]

Well, if I say a bit about my experience, it may help.
I had repeat attraction to Ns and a various assortment of abusive men. they, it turned out were my drug. this is different from you and voN, my story seems less excusable as I jumped in with all my instincts in alarm, I knew I was heading for damage, but the need/ desire overrode other things. It could be that any repeated attraction to Ns is something to do with whats inside us, its just a variation of the degree.
I later found out I had a pd, shciziod (selfinexile), which let me know that what was happening was - the empty needy child inside me goes into service to the empty needy part of the N. For me, my 'selfinexile' was already there, engagement with Ns of various sorts was how it expressed itself.

What I understand about recovery is that its more about working to change ourselves to keep our own behaviour healthy so that all our relationships, wether with Ns or a bit Nish, have more of a chance, if there is any chance going at all. Thats not to say we are 'gooder or nicer', it can mean whatever is healthy in any given circumstances.
there are a few of us working together for recovery specifically from these issues. let me know if you want some info. (calling it self in exile, not schiz).

best to you and child on the way.
river.

[Perna]

I think people get pulled in, like Jefftele says, because of one's own needs and also because other people are just as "complicated" as we are, they're not all one thing to the same degree all the time. Narcissists can be quite charming or they wouldn't be able to exploit others and one could feel bad if one knows someone with weak self-esteem, it is nice to think we might be able to help another; there's a little bit of narcissism in everyone (why do you think therapists are therapists?), it's a continuum.

I think the trick is kind of scary; to think of one's self first (but the narcissist doesn't need to "think" of themselves, it comes too automatically) and look at the whole relationship, etc. It's easy to see a narcissist if you look at the whole relationship and realize that you've never gotten anything from them, only given. Taking a hard look at one's self, one has to decide if the feel-good of giving is worth the pain of never getting but being used instead. If there is no sincere "Thank you!" after giving, no attempts at repayment, it's hard to feel good giving unless there's something not quite right with one's own self/world. If simple requests are ignored or excuses are flimsy at best, that's a loud-and-clear warning sign.

[FnordianSlip]

All of us have narcissistic TRAITS. Some of us even develop a narcissistic PERSONALITY. Moreover, narcissism is a SPECTRUM of behaviors - from the healthy to the utterly pathological (known as the Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or NPD).

But the "malignant" narcissist consistently manifests at least 5 of these 9 criteria.

The DSM IV uses this language:

"An all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy, usually beginning by early adulthood and present in various contexts."

So, what matters is that these characteristics, often found in healthy people, appear:

1. Jointly and not separately or intermittently
2. They are all-pervasive (invade, penetrate, and mold every aspect, nook, and cranny of the personality)
3. That grandiose fantasies are abundantly discernible
4. That grandiose (often ridiculous) behaviors are present
5. That there is an over-riding need for admiration and adulation ("narcissistic supply")
6. That the person lacks empathy (regards other people as two dimensional cartoon figures and abstractions, unable to "stand in their shoes")
7. That all these phenomena began, at the latest, in early adolescence
8. That the narcissistic behaviors pervade all the social and emotional interactions of the narcissist.

Here are the 9 criteria. Having 5 of these 9 "qualifies" you as a narcissist...

1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequaled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion
3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).
5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations
6. Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends
7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others
8. Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her
9. Arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

The language in the criteria above is based on or summarized from:

American Psychiatric Association. (1994). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV). Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association.

referenced from:
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/6-5-2002-19788.asp

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Some head-shrinker once postulated that I am a narcissist, however I only satisfy two of the criteria, and elements of 2 more - specifically 3 & 5 in full, and to a much lesser degree 7 & 9...I'll acknowledge other peoples feelings, but I'm not willing to identify with them, and though I'm arrogant, withdrawal rather than rage is my reaction to frustration, confrontation, or contradiction. Also, my narcissism is a defensive mechanism I constructed in my late twenties (hardly adolescence) to counteract the negative aspects of a borderline personality disorder I'd been suffering from for years.

So I believe benign narcissism exists - I consider myself an example of it compared to the really pathological variety.