"she" is not - an "it"

Thank you LovebirdsFlying

you know, it feels nice to be validated, thank you.

YES!! that's it!
Someone REALLY understands me.....*sigh*, thank you

hearing the word "her" in regard to an object leaves my mind reeling in anxiety. (My mind instantly sees-- strip clubs, groping, rape, prostitution.... all the trauma and degradation that happens to females when seen as objects)
oh why can't objects be "it"?

And YES-- the Beauty Pageants, Yea right-- "empowerment" my *&@.

Those that are thinking I'm just a sour grapes type female.... NO, I was asked many times in school why I don't try out for cheerleader.... seems I fit the "appearance" requirement, I didn't because, even then I felt the imbalance of the genders and didn't want to partake in such. I've been whistled at and received comments from males-- of which I don't appreciate! they dont' even know ME! They are reacting solely by seeing me as a cool car or a shiny boat, not by knowing my inner-self...

It's like the whole population is saying-- "there, put females in there place -- not to be taken seriously, to be valued by appearance and not by production, to be used and disgarded at will"(how many elderly women do any of you see on weekly TV shows?? it's OK for elderly men to be seen by the masses-- but please-- hide those old women away, in the US anyway. I don't think other countries are as bad. I hope it changes before I get old, that is, if I even do get old)......
this patriarchal culture will work hard to always remind it's masses, that in general-- women are to be objectified.

I'm trying to grasp your "added" note...... it's a bit fuzzy for me to understand.(not because of your writing- but because I get confused in ideas of rational vs irrational and irrational vs correct.)

thanks very much for your reply, it means a lot to me.

fins

I think I "got" you because yesterday another site left me feeling just a wee bit triggered myself. It's supposed to be a humor page, and someone made a post that was blatantly sexist, trying to be funny. Several women, including myself, joked back in the same spirit, which led to the comment, "Wow, that sure brought out a lot of angry b!tches."

OK. So if a man makes a joke that insults women, it's humor, and we shouldn't be sensitive about it. But if a woman then turns that joke around and puts the egg on the man's face, all of a sudden it's not humor anymore, and she's an angry.... well, *that.* Whatever happened to "hey it's humor, don't take it so seriously"? Are we not allowed to joke back?

Double standards are a big pet peeve of mine.

yes, ----- to double standards.

Sorry you had a bit of a trigger moment on that site.

and why are insults 95% of the time--degrading females?

"you throw like a girl".....
"he is &ussy whipped"....

The word &lut and ***** are only used against women..... even &astard is meant to degrade the female in the situation.
How many words are there to degrade a man that doesn't degrade a woman simultaneously??? a few, but not many compared to what women are bombarded with.

if women stand up and defend themselves they are beeotches... while men are thought to be strong and of leader quality. If men have an argument they are having a disagreement-- but if women argue-- it's labeled-- "a cat fight" (i hate that label-- women are NOT cats)

Many men secretly VALUE women in porn magazines(or else why would sales be so high?) but in public will ostracize them.... huh?

Oh the imbalance!!

"labels" are more often put on objects/women--
lesbian, cat fight, dike, slut.... etc... etc...

"descriptions" are put on humans--
he is gay(no "lesbianish" label for a man), they are arguing(no "cat fight" label for men), he likes to play around(no degrading "slutish" label for him), he's bossy and has a temper (no "beeotch" label for him).......
.......the patriarchal culture's way of keeping things "in check" for the masses.

label objects, label women........

fins
ps.....
I better get off my soapbox now..... I think people are going to repel me like water on a ducks back
people don't like to hear of this stuff-- many would rather stay behind the curtain in their little brick houses with their white picket fences...
ha! ...as if it doesn't affect them.............

I've been up there on that same soap box. Double standards are always unfair. Why is it that a sexually active man is a "stud," but a sexually active woman is called something else entirely? I've often wondered, if women are supposed to be virgins until they get married, but men are expected to sleep around, who are the men expected to sleep around *with*?

I was a teenage unwed mother. While I was pregnant, the father's mother let me know in no uncertain terms what she thought of me. I was a slut. It wasn't her son's fault. He was just being male, doing what came naturally. It's the girl's responsibility to "fight off the roaming hands," her words.

And even outside the realm of sex, the same behavior is seen one way when it's a man, and another way when it's a woman. He's stressed out from working too hard. She's in one of her moods, maybe it's PMS. He's assertive. She's a b... well, you know. He's calm, cool, and collected. She's frigid and uptight. He has the courage of his convictions. She's always harping about something.

Humor works sometimes. It can defuse the situation, and it can also expose the real feelings of those who are hiding behind "it's just a joke" to mask their honest-to-goodness hatred. The true misogynists just HATE it when we joke back.

Purple Fins, you make very good points, and some of the examples you are using are actually examples that my professor used in my sociology course in gender inequality discussion.

Really? Wow-- maybe I should be a professor.

I've never had/done any study on this subject.... think it might just keep the trigger on high alert
I see it and deal with it every single day--
and then to go and hear a lecture on it might be too much!

well... thank you everyone that have read and also those that have replied.....
the uneasiness(fear and anxiety) in me is becoming difficult to deal with, think I will refrain from this topic for now. (in the past have been verbally attacked and physically assaulted for speaking of what I posted here...... not feeling too safe)

best to all and wishing you inner peace

fins

I'd better refrain too, so I don't set you off. I'm sorry you're feeling unsafe. I certainly wouldn't attack you for anything you said. Peace to you.

You are so sweet You've done nothing to trigger me, in fact, I've never felt so validated with these feelings before.

..... it's just my own worries of past experiences.....
anticipating the attacks....
causes the anxiety and fear to skyrocket and then..... well....
the thoughts can get upsetting/disturbing....

thank you

fins

((((((((((((((Lovebirdsflying)))))))))))))))

(((((((((((Purple fins)))))))))))))))))

Might I suggest that while many, if not most men, value women (at least women whom they don't know) based on appearances - they don't value other men at all.

I suppose that a man on a subway or in line at the coffee shop who is checking out a woman he finds attractive and is deciding her worth to himself could be annoying if that woman wants to be valued as a person by strangers but, you might notice too that he is not checking out any of the guys. Unless he's gay, fellow men are invisible and have absolutely no value - even as an object.

I am happily married and have never wanted to stray, yet a pretty woman can cause me to turn my head in appreciation while the rest of the world is passed without so much as an acknowledgment of their existance. I suppose, insomuch as I know nothing about the woman and have no desire to get to know her, that my head turning is objectifying her...it is just the physical that I am looking at...but I see no harm in it.

Anyway, just some random thoughts...curious if you find fault in my behavior.

Guys aren't checking out other guys..... because they are above such objectification, by pressure from the culture.
-- they do have value to each other, as an equal-- and that value is called-- Respect. They would never want to objectify another man because that would be disrespectful-- it would make them less than what they are currently. That's why one would be hard pressed to see a man watching at a "chip and dales" show.... they respect the whole male persona and are NOT ever encouraged by the culture to see the male as a sexual object or judged as sexy. (I think they don't want women to do to them what they do to women, so if it's just not accepted cultural wide then males will always be respected for their humanness and not just how "pleasing" they are to another)
The culture is saturated with females as sexual objects and as objects in general-- it doesn't surprise me that women blindly go along with it-- it's all they know. The culture is GREATLY geard towards males and their desires/interests. With little or no concern how it affects the females.

If I were your wife I would be offended. You see no harm because it isn't hurting YOU in any way. I imagine, even if slightly, it has caused your wife to feel perhaps-- less than, threatened or pushed aside. And that other human you objectify is being considered as a boat, car or cow. And the other females that you've deemed as not deserving of your attention have once again been shown they are of little worth. It keeps the male -- the predator-- above females-- the prey. Some day your daughter will be sized up by men, judged to be worthy of value or not..... hope the "lottery wheel" has been good to her.

I think the "males are more visual" idea, is a crock of - you know what! Humans are all visual. Why do women like flowers so much? visual. Why do women like bright colorful clothes, men don't even care? visual. Why do women like to decorate with colors while men would be content with brown and beige? visual. How come women notice details so much? visual.
...... I believe the culture is trying to pass off the notion of males "being more visual" instead of --being more sexual..... trying to pull the wool over our eyes.... sad thing is-- it works for the masses. Females' sexuality is still not encouraged like males is.

I thank you AkAngel for your reply and for not acting defensive-- it's very refreshing!

I have a scenerio that I'd like to run by males, I hope to get some feed back.

next post...........

I know that this is going to come out wrong so please allow me to explain a bit. I don't believe you'll agree with my perspective when I'm done either but I don't mind that, I just don't want to be misunderstood, you know?

Before I do though, how ironic is this... I actually find the terms 'female' and 'male' to be mildly offensive (no offense taken). I believe that the designation of male and female are for animals while people are men and women. Anyway...

They ARE of little worth to me; perhaps even none. People with whom I don't associate have no value to me. Now to be clear, life has value to me - I have and would put my life in jeopardy to save a stranger but their persona...no value to me. Someone, man or woman, can be of value to me in a number of ways - they can, for instance, be a conduit for mental, emotional, intellectual or spiritual intimacy. They can also be attractive and a source of visually appreciation. Of course that is the least important of the values but it nevertheless exists.

You said,

I realize it would be easier to just say I did this but prior to writing this post I called three gay friends and asked them if they check out guys. Two are involved in a relationship, one a very serious six year relationship and one is a monogamous dating relationship - the last is single. Each of them replied at least 'yes' though there was an 'Well yeah, of course!' and even a 'Yes, who doesn't?'. I actually got five respnoses in total because two of them had their boyfriends in tow when I called.

My daughters have and honestly, anyone who is looking to hook up with my daughter on the basis of what he thinks of her looks is unlikely to get past 'hello' with her. She needs there to be more substance than that although she looks at men and notices whether or not they are 'hot' or not according to her standards as well. Noticing attractiveness and basing a relationship on it are very different things. Unless you are basing a relationship on it - then the lottery wheel doesn't really matter.

I look forward to your next post.

Angel

My car is called The White Rhino.....it's white and it has a horn

But I have called previous cars by a name, not by "she". It is a simple matter of the way I was taught to speak and use the English language. Perhaps it is laziness in the way the language is used these days? Along of course with total arrogance that allows people to think they can create a better language than the one that already exists?

that is interesting. As I see it that women aren't necessarily female... nor are men necessarily male-- if you know what I mean-- genetically speaking. (in this day and age one can change the outside package and be regarded as a woman when they were born male or a man when they were born female) so I use male/female more in this modern time to show that I mean the ones born with the xy or the xx chromosome. but I can use "men" and "women" if that seems less offensive to you.

Wow! that is NOT how I look at people AT ALL! I see such value in every single being... such a treasure to the earth. I don't wish for anyone to feel sad, worthless or scared.(regardless if I know them or not) If I could I would hug every hurting soul on this planet. Every person has a story and EVERY story is such a treasure. Riding the bus I look over at the woman in her nurse uniform and wonder how she became a nurse. Did she overcome huge obstacles- like a death of a parent when she was a child or did her parents encourage her to go to school and pay for it. And the elderly man reading the paper through thick glasses-- did he get his eyes injured.. maybe he was in a war..... does he have any family. The young mom with her two little babies..... what kind of housing do they live in, how did she come to have kids at such a young age, will she teach her children compassion towards humans, how hard it must be to travel daily by bus with two babies.......

Ah, as I suspected-- as far as men go-- one has to go out of the heterosexual realm to find guys that are comfortable with "sizing up" men's bodies ....in general they are more open minded and balanced than straight men.(IMO--sorry not meaning to offend anyone, just my opinion) Women are expected to size each other up no matter their sexual preference and have been expected to for generations.

I still stand on the notion that men in general(the majority- heterosexuals)-- believe they are above objectification and will not allow it to occur around them....their sexual attractiveness is to NEVER be questioned, nor is their humaness ever to be degraded by equating him or regarding him as an object. He will NOT be owned or controlled as "she" will be.
maybe men feel threatened????
maybe they have the most fragile egos of all humans????

sounds like your daughter is strong(within herself) and knows what she wants. I wish her much happiness

I'm sorry I've not been able to post "my scenario".... I'm having a bit of a struggle at the moment...... I will post as soon as I"m able.

best to all

fins

No, no... I know you meant no offense and so none was taken. We just see it slightly different - and that's okay.

In my original post I added, "Now to be clear, life has value to me - I have and would put my life in jeopardy to save a stranger but their persona...no value to me." So what I am saying is, while the lives passing by me have value; their stories do not. I don't value the life of the preacher more than that of the man on death row. Perhaps if I knew their story, my human failings would kick in and I'd value one life more than another; I think it's better for me this way. Too, as I'm writing this I keep thinking of something that Ram Dass once said, "Right now I love you more than I've ever loved anyone in my life, and I don't care if I ever see you again."

I think rather that it has more to do with homophobia than the implications of objectification. My daughter shares her thoughts about men all the time with me and I share my thoughts about them back with her. Personally I have some difficulty finding redeeming physical features on what she finds attractive and can't seem to figure out how she misses the cuteness on the ones I think are attractive but I am certainly comfortable talking about it.

It seems odd to me that a man would think himself above having their sexual attractiveness questioned. I can't imagine that I am unique in this as there seems to be no end of commercials designed for the masses selling everything from Axe body spray which invariably makes women flock to the geekiest of guys no matter how much they ignored him before to hair club for men where once again, women are suddenly both pawning and pawing him as soon as the hair is in place. If men buy things to increase their sexual attractiveness, then it seems that they have accepted that their sexual attractiveness is questioned.

I'm not sure.... but... since there is no real way to be sure...
we'll just have to each have our own opinions.
though, that leads me to another ponder.....
why are heterosexual men, in general, so threatened or scared by homosexual men?? (there have been instances where some men have killed a homosexual man even!) Women don't feel that way about each other(I don't know of a case where a group of women killed a homosexual woman).....
I ponder..... once again... are men's egos so fragile they can't deal with "outside the box" thinking? is it too difficult for them to accept that which is different? I wonder, why heterosexual men, in general, are apt to feel threatened? by different religions, differing sexual preferences, different races.......

Really? it seems so apparent to me-- like a 10ft X 12ft billboard on the front lawn.
Men don't have to do half as much as women to be accepted as sexually valued.(they are accepted much more for their naturalness than women are) they don't worry about removal of leg hair, arm hair, facial hair or hair around "that" area. they ARE accepted and thought as sexy even if they have NO hair.... women don't get that luxury.(they MUST wear wigs) Men don't have to wear make-up, uncomfortable-foot injuring high heels, spaghetti string dresses for the holiday when it's 15 degrees(-9.4 celsius) outside. They get to be in comfortable flat shoes with comfortable, skin covering clothes.
I wish men would have to wear tank top type shirts to fancy holiday dinners, so we women can see some skin.... and in tights... that way us women could size them up as we are sized up.-- It might happen some day(I think it will- generations from now)-- as what goes around comes around..... that which is given out-- will be received.


... what I'm trying to say is that the scale is still tipped to benefit the man. - maybe he will get -- per the commercial-- more women if he uses such and such body spray. but... I challenge anyone to prove that men are put to the same strict and what I see as obssessive lengths as women to have value to the opposite gender. It doesn't surprise me that anorexia and bulemia are increasing in girls and women. We are "things" to be given attention to-- if we meet some visual standards.
One time I saw a commercial for cellulite in women-- they showed women dancing around a street with short shorts on and NO cellulite! oh what a great product! these women weren't over 22 years old and skinny-- cellulite free. HA! Now why should a 22 year old woman be encouraged to even think about such idiocies?

I'm not feeling comfortable enough to post the scenario I was going to..... I apologize. The "uglies" are giving me doubts in my head. I feel the need to keep the stress level down and so I must refrain for now.

thank you AkAngel for all your replies and compassion.
and to anyone else that has read--
thank you for your patience with me.

respectfully
fins