[sittingatwatersedge]

A recent post really caught my eye >> being the youngest of a large abusive family was way more damaging than if I would have been the oldest... the oldest only had the parents to contend with, but each child after that had the older child/children to also defend against... <<

I told T that there are TONS of photos of my older sister from ages 0-3, but none of me. Not that I want a photo spread but she was the first & evidently a wanted child; by the time I got there 3 yrs later, my parents literally hated each other. It wasn't long from there to the end. ACOA says this is usually the Lost Child... and I was shocked to read the Lost Child's description - that was me all right.

My Mom had two families: in the first, I was the youngest of four, iwth whatever advantage / disadvantage comes with being the youngest in a dysfunctional family. And 7 yrs after the breakup she started the new family and had two more children, so I ended up the middle kid. And everyone knows who THAT is - too young to be included in the older ones' fun times, too old to be considered a little one & get forgiveness for errors. Well, I did get a lot of experience changing diapers and babysitting.

has anyone else talked with T about birth order? would be great to hear comments.

T and I have talked about birth order, but mostly in relation to my boys.

I was the oldest of two, and we have talked some about how that affected me. There were A LOT of expectations on me...especially since my brother could do nothing wrong, even when he became an addict. I had to be the perfect child, I think to make my parents feel better about my brother.

It hasn't come up a lot...but I do think there is a LOT of truth in the idea of birth order affecting who we are.

[purple_fins]

Sorry you felt "in the middle" -- lost... that sucks.
I've not heard of "The Lost Child"... I'll have to look that up-- thank you.

Yea, like you quoted me-- I have talked to T. about it. I, as well as she, think it is paramount to my struggles.

Not even taking into account what the parents abuse did(that's another whole story!)-- It gives a six year old a message when her 25 year old sister is slapping and hitting her, when her 24 year old sister is taking the second youngest(3 years my senior) on trips and she never got to go, not ever. That same year the 18 year old sister, who was the "mother" figure to me-- got married and moved 1200 miles away. I thought, in my child brain, that if I was more perfect I would not be slapped and I'd get to go places..... teachers would say how they forgot I was even in their class, I was always so quiet and never caused any trouble. ... i tried so hard to be perfect but it never would matter at home. The sister, three years my senior, was very abusive to me and since she was the favored one-- no one else cared, they valued her so so much.
The littlest one meant- the insignificant one-- anything happening was insignificant-- no matter what it was.... a gun to my back, or being held daily against my will for months, or being slapped, being verbally abused... it was all insignificant because I was so little.

I'm nervous around people, especially if it's more than one-to-one. I fear making any mistake will take people caring away from me. I've quit jobs every time I make any mistake(I've had more than 20+ jobs)-- even a tiny mistake. (which I don't know what a "tiny" mistake is-- T. has told me those-- they all seem so HUGE to me) I'm trying to understand how I matter as much as others, as I deny myself care to tend to others- no matter how bad I might need care. I'm told I let others use, and abuse me-- but-- as bad as that is-- it's what I know.......being the youngest, the most insignificant.

fins

[Perna]

I think birth order is just part of all the rest of our personal experience. I remember telling my T once that I grew up "alongside" my brothers and she liked that. No matter what, one's relationship with the parents and the rest of the family and outside world can't be the same as any other sibling's, even if one is a twin.

I was the youngest of 4 and the only girl, the "precious, darling, baby girl" but my mother died and my stepmother and her daughter, older than my oldest brother, became part of our family and a great deal changed. I don't think anything can be "predicted" or said for sure about birth order that makes any difference (yes, the oldest is going to be asked to look after/care for the younger children and to do other chores) and there's no predicting how one individual child will respond. My husband and my brother are each oldest children of four but are way different, even though my husband's and my families had similar backgrounds (our fathers were both Navy officers) and upbringings and the children are similar ages. I think more rests on "who" the child is to begin with than "where".

[sunrise]

I think birth order affects kids differently, depending on the family dynamics. For example, being the youngest could be tough for the reason you listed (older sibs being abusive) or it could be good, if the older sibs are mentors and protectors. It sounds really hard, SAWE, the way you were in the middle of the two families.

I think a disadvantage for me (being youngest of 4) was for my entire childhood, things were kind of wacked out in the family with my parents, whereas with my oldest sibs, there was a period when they were quite young where things were closer to normalcy. On the other hand, my oldest sibs have expressed envy for me that in my last years at home as the only child living there, things were easier for me than them with my parents. It didn't seem good to me, but they thought it was better--that my parents had mellowed some with age and didn't make life so hard for me. I think there is some truth to that--I think my mother had disengaged somewhat by the time I was a teen. But it still was hard. Plus I missed having my sibs as a buffer between me and my parents. It made me the sole object of their negative attention. Help!

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

I told T that there are TONS of photos of my older sister from ages 0-3, but none of me. Not that I want a photo spread but she was the first & evidently a wanted child;

SAWE, from what you'v said I think you are making that assumption based on a lot of things, not just the photos, right? I want to encourage you not to let the photos play a big part in how you feel. I was youngest of 4 and there are just a handful of photos of me whereas lots more of the older kids. With each kid, there were fewer. I used to think that was because they were less interested in me, or sick of being parents, etc. Now that I am a parent myself, I realize that the lack of photos and baby books is not necessarily because parents want you less but because they have less time. With the first baby, it is just you and the baby (especially if you take early years off work), and you have much more time to take photos, label them, and organize them into albums. With each new baby, it gets harder to have that leisure time, and even harder if you are working too. For me, I wanted to spend my free time being with my babies and young children, not working on hobbyist projects like photo albums. I like to think they appreciated my personal attention and care and in later years won't look at the lack of organized photo albums as a negative.

I think exploring birth order in therapy could be a really fruitful way to get at your feelings about your family of origin. T and I were talking recently about my expectation that my parents should have known certain things, passed on that knowledge to me, and modeled certain behavior to me so I would learn it because they were older, had more knowledge and experience, etc. It turns out T had a similar expectation of his older sibling. He has felt all his life that he had to be the "older" one instead of his less "able" older sib (and also had to "defend" against this older one, instead of being protected). Even today, he feels that in his relationship and seems to still yearn for his older sib to be "older."

Like tree, my T and I have talked some about how birth order affects my own children. I do see that my younger child has a feeling sometimes that we like her older sister better, which isn't true. I love my younger daughter tremendously, and in fact, I feel she is more similar to how I was when I was her age, which makes me want to draw closer to her. For reasons I don't completely understand, that is not easy or "permitted." But I do try to provide a lot of reassurance that she is valued for who she is. Her older sister is also good about trying not to let herself be pushed away. My youngest was affected much more strongly by my divorce than her sister, so there's been a lot going on for her in her young life.

Interesting topic....

[sittingatwatersedge]

(about my sister being wanted and me not)

Sunny - in my defense - I say it not because of the pix, but because of what I know of the story of our parents. Despite later traumas, my sister shows the marks of very secure early attachment, whereas I do not.
By the time I was born, things were falling apart in our family; my Dad had beaten & tried to kill my mother rmany times (even while pregnant with me). My mom had already seen a T who said, you've got to get out of there, he is going to succeed one of these days.
I'm amazed they even got close enough for her to get pregnant one more time, but it happened.
Faced with the prospect of supporting us alone somehow, I think the last thing she wanted was a newborn, in addition to a 3 yr old and twins age 1 yr.
BTW if I read the situation correctly, I don't blame my Mom for having that feeling toward having me; I do blame her for some things, but not for that; she had some incredibly hard times.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

Sunny - in my defense - I say it not because of the pix, but because of what I know of the story of our parents.

No defense needed, SAWE. I was very careful to state that it seemed there were a lot of things making you feel that way (you were clear on that), not just the photos. I made sure to acknowledge that so you would not think I was misinterpreting, so rest assured, I hear ya! I had just wanted to say that about the photos so they wouldn't necessarily add to your feelings of being unwanted.

You and your mom had early hard times. I am glad you are able to feel some empathy (I think it can help in healing). Sounds like a terribly hard time for all.

My mom has said to me she didn't want to have me so I know what it is to have it acknowledged that I was not wanted. She told me very matter of factly rather than in anger or frustration. It was just a fact--nothing personal--and I have tried to accept it in that vein too (for my own protection). She would not have wanted any 4th child, as she wanted to be done childbearing.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

Despite later traumas, my sister shows the marks of very secure early attachment, whereas I do not.
By the time I was born, things were falling apart in our family; my Dad had beaten & tried to kill my mother rmany times (even while pregnant with me).

I think the problem is with the dynamics, not the birth order. I know about the "jealousy" of older siblings; I have motion pictures of my mother holding/carrying my oldest brother around and playing with him, etc. and my father and uncle doing the same from 1942-43, when family movies weren't the norm and it was during the War, etc., but there is nothing with my other brothers and me. I have "enough" photographs of myself that I'm comfortable with that but really really am frustrated because I was so young, I can't remember what went on and my brothers claim not to either (whereas I feel, if I were older like they were, I would remember :-) I always feel like I'm "behind" in understanding family dynamics and how it "was".

I get pictures like this one of my mother holding me, just home from the hospital and my brothers looking on but I can't see my mother's face, whether she was smiling, cooing, frowning, etc. It's very frustrating:

[sugahorse1]

I was born first and grew up a lot more independently. My brother is the apple of my parents' eye. I sometimes feel I forced to grow up too quickly, and not emotionally ready enough by the time I felt home. I battle with abandonment and always feel lonely. I know my parents are there for me, I have just never made an effort to get close to them - don't know why

[growlycat]

Yep, oldest here too. Felt like I was rushed to grow up while my youngest sister was kept "the baby" for longer than she was comfortable with. On the one hand, she was showered with attention but now that we are adults, I don't think she was thrilled with her "place". It may have affected her faith in her own independence.

My need for fatherly/motherly attention from my therapist is a little embarrassing but I try to enjoy it now that I have it. I never felt like I had enough one-on-one time w/my parents.

[sugahorse1]

growlycat - I feel exactly the same way as you. I feel a bit shy asking for that attention that I definitely need, which causes much frustration and anxiety. And I guess some of my depression - it's a deep need that I just tend to ignore...