[BillHz60]

I hate therapy. If you look through the few posts I've made here, you'll discover why. Mostly, it's the therapists. Just because you want to be one, that does not mean you should be. The 'degree' has nothing to do with ability. That said, I do have a good one. She doesn't take my insurance, so I have to pay her out of pocket. My pockets are more then ten grand in the red these days, so when I go, I try to get my money's worth.

It hurts to pay her a buck and a quarter for the hour, but she is awesomely spectacular. It hurts to process what she has to say, which is entirely the point. Thank you for the misery, Marcia. You make my brain boil, but the heat is an inferno away from what I walked in with.

It's been a year and a half since I've seen her. The last visit was a family session, where my wife stormed out in anger, leaving me and my two daughters sitting there stunned. I'm the one who's f*cked up, why is she bolting from the meeting? She had... has... some culpability.

Responsibility is a foreign language to her. So be it. We are done. I am alone.

Digression pours through my veins like blood through a turnip. On to Forgiveness:

Marcia told me, in not so many words, that it was time to forgive myself. I've held myself responsible for all of the horrors of the past. I've blamed my mother for her denial, my baby sister for her ignorance, but most of all, I blame myself for failing to cure the childhood ills. I was 8, and i took my responsibility seriously. The next ten years were horrific, and the rest, an agonizing reminder of my failure as a human being.

At my therapy session this week, Marcia offered that it was time to forgive myself. And, as I type these words, I bury my face in my hands and weep. I cry because I cannot fathom forgiveness. Not for me. Not for my mother. And certainly not for my big sister. She is dead. She is gone. She is beyond forgiveness.

And it was all my fault.

So I ask you, my friends, is forgiveness an act, or an emotion?

Search as I may, sober and drunk, I cannot find forgiveness in my soul. Nor for her. Not for my mother (queen of denial). Not for myself.

And the long week between therapy sessions continues...

Lost in the horror of history,

b.

[BillHz60]

This is why I don't write. I take myself down the avenue of darkness, and my response is so often anti-theraputic.

I'm a keyring away from the door, from the world... from oblivion.

b.

[unaluna]

You sound drunk. Are you having a stroke?

[CantExplain]

((Bill))

Forgiveness is something you can learn. But it's not something you can do by effort of will alone. It's a kind of grieving, I think. It takes time and it has phases. You have to face the reality of what happened, the reality of your anger, sadness, helplessness.

I found it easier to forgive others than to forgive myself. I found it easier to forgive than be forgiven.

The first think I learned in therapy, was to accept that my T was sincere in forgiving me.

[BillHz60]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

...in therapy [...] accept that [the therapist is] sincere in forgiving [you].

Balling my eyes out. I think she does. I know she does.

Marcia forgives me....

Jesus Christ, why can't I forgive myself?

...

Because it's an ACT, not an emotion. One cannot feel forgiveness, one must do something to discrern the act.

That means face to face... And if its me I must forgive, that must be done in the mirror.

b.

Forgiveness is a choice. Yu dont have to feel like doing it to choose to do it. Its been hard for me too to forgive some people who have truly hurt me. Forgiveness isnt for them. Ots for myself. So i wont be bound to that person forever.

May i ask, if you hate therapy, why do you go? Is someone making you? Could you make the choice not to go since you hate it?

[BillHz60]

A story about mirrors:

More then a year ago, in an effort to lift my spirits, my wife drew a cute picture on the mirror above my bathroom sink. It was sexy and provacative, and 6 days later, she asked me about it. "Did you find that funny?" "Did you find that cute?"

I hadn't seen it, though when I looked, it was obvioulsy apparant.

I can't look myself in the eye, and if you can't do that, you're one big, fat liar.

Self hatered is an unnatural act. I get that, and I understand that it is unappropriate. But I am light years away from self-love.

Light years....

b.

[BillHz60]

Originally Posted by hankster

You sound drunk. Are you having a stroke?

Fck you, hankster. You are the reason so many don't post their feelings here. Find another place to prance your inocuous feelings.

And, as I said, fck you.

b.

[BillHz60]

Originally Posted by Starry_Night

May i ask, if you hate therapy, why do you go? Is someone making you? Could you make the choice not to go since you hate it?

Believe me, I've tried not to go. Marcia, my only therapist, has slowly walked me through the minefield over these past 7 years. My Insurance comnpany won't pay her, so I've wandered off through many others, only to find that they only desire a paycheck.

And then, some bring up god. The bible...

After considerable consideration, I've decided not to go down that road.

The whole point of therapy is to confront that which you least want to confront. You're not going to do it on your own. That's why they make the big bucks.

I hate therapy, but I hate feeling like I do, far worse. Far worse. A healthy week for me is to cry a few times, get angry once, and betweeen, find some solace in life.

b.

[BillHz60]

Back to my original question: Is forgiveness an act, or an emotion?

Saying 'both' doens'nt cut it with me. For if it's both, one must start with the feeling of forgiveness, and that, in a nut shell, is what I'm asking.

How do I forgive myself? Must I start with an emotion, and proceed to an act? or must the act proceed the sensation, the 'feeling' of being forgiven?

I want, in my heart, to forgive my baby sister. She was not involved. She was not a co-conspiriter. But at the end, she turned her back on me, threw me into the hounds of hell to save herself. A choice. A descision.

And as the devil howled in the throws of agony, my baby sister offered up me as a sacrafice. To save herself. To save her innocence.

Were I in her shoes, I would have chosen otherwise. I would have slayed myself for the truth. Because those that survived must live on in the world.

She chose to sacrafice me, and now everyone says I must forgive her.

Forget aobut me. I can't forgive myself until I find a way to forgive her.

...and thereby stab myself in the process.

b.

...therapy is a good thing. It will help you find the answer you can live with.

[kaliope]

I put my vote in that forgiveness is an act. You have to DO something. I ascribe to a definition of forgiveness I got out of a book from the coparenting class I teach. Forgiveness is the act of making things as right as possible. what is it going to take to make things as right as possible? Notice this doesn't say things have to be perfect, just right as possible.

[blur]

i do think it is both but i think it starts as an act and then our emotions change later. at least that is has how it has worked for me. i don't tend to want to forgive, but am rather amazed that as i do it (and keep doing it as i also find it to be a process rather than a one time thing) that my emotions do change. the anger dissipates and finally does go away.

[wadingthruemotions]

Originally Posted by BillHz60

I hate therapy. If you look through the few posts I've made here, you'll discover why. Mostly, it's the therapists. Just because you want to be one, that does not mean you should be. The 'degree' has nothing to do with ability. That said, I do have a good one. She doesn't take my insurance, so I have to pay her out of pocket. My pockets are more then ten grand in the red these days, so when I go, I try to get my money's worth.

It hurts to pay her a buck and a quarter for the hour, but she is awesomely spectacular. It hurts to process what she has to say, which is entirely the point. Thank you for the misery, Marcia. You make my brain boil, but the heat is an inferno away from what I walked in with.

It's been a year and a half since I've seen her. The last visit was a family session, where my wife stormed out in anger, leaving me and my two daughters sitting there stunned. I'm the one who's f*cked up, why is she bolting from the meeting? She had... has... some culpability.

Responsibility is a foreign language to her. So be it. We are done. I am alone.

Digression pours through my veins like blood through a turnip. On to Forgiveness:

Marcia told me, in not so many words, that it was time to forgive myself. I've held myself responsible for all of the horrors of the past. I've blamed my mother for her denial, my baby sister for her ignorance, but most of all, I blame myself for failing to cure the childhood ills. I was 8, and i took my responsibility seriously. The next ten years were horrific, and the rest, an agonizing reminder of my failure as a human being.

At my therapy session this week, Marcia offered that it was time to forgive myself. And, as I type these words, I bury my face in my hands and weep. I cry because I cannot fathom forgiveness. Not for me. Not for my mother. And certainly not for my big sister. She is dead. She is gone. She is beyond forgiveness.

And it was all my fault.

So I ask you, my friends, is forgiveness an act, or an emotion?

Search as I may, sober and drunk, I cannot find forgiveness in my soul. Nor for her. Not for my mother (queen of denial). Not for myself.

And the long week between therapy sessions continues...

Lost in the horror of history,

b.

I had started a post on this very topic of forgiving oneself and those that hurt me and how in the heck am I supposed to do that. it helped as I had good feedback from some here. You don't have to forgive anyone that hurt you. I don't. I am not. I don't have it in me.

Dealing with the crap they have left us with and this we turned out to be is hard enough. Why add the stress and forceful nature of forgiveness to the mix. Do a search, or I will try to find it and send you the specific link as I think those replies might help you.

Forgiveness to me is an act, it is overrated and for the most part for me cannot be done.

Now forgiving yourself, as you I need to do that with me. I don't know how but do feel that if I can get there maybe my plight and hateful feelings toward myself may not be so bad if I can manage to get even anywhere close to that.

i wish you luck with the forgiveness for yourself. I don't think you should waste your precious time, energy and self to forgive those who have hurt you to terribly. it isn't worth it to me.

[wadingthruemotions]

Originally Posted by BillHz60

A story about mirrors:

More then a year ago, in an effort to lift my spirits, my wife drew a cute picture on the mirror above my bathroom sink. It was sexy and provacative, and 6 days later, she asked me about it. "Did you find that funny?" "Did you find that cute?"

I hadn't seen it, though when I looked, it was obvioulsy apparant.

I can't look myself in the eye, and if you can't do that, you're one big, fat liar.

Self hatered is an unnatural act. I get that, and I understand that it is unappropriate. But I am light years away from self-love.

Light years....

b.

I feel you with this and totally get it. i don't either and I must at some point to come to terms with why I hate myself. For those things I have done by choice or not choice, i.e. letting it happen. I am so not there, not by a long shot.

Take things slowly, which you are and that is good. I know it sucks and it seems like why am I continuing to do this for so long. I get it. I don't have many answers. I can offer listening and comparing notes if you wish so to speak. maybe we could be sounding boards to each other, if you wish to PM me. I tend not to post really deep down things here as I have not seen where that is totally welcome or replied to and also cause it hurts just toooo damn much to do so.

[wadingthruemotions]

Is there a path or right way or something/anything on how to figure yourself?

Is the post title by me if you are interested.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by BillHz60

Fck you, hankster. You are the reason so many don't post their feelings here. Find another place to prance your inocuous feelings.

And, as I said, fck you.

b.

Thank you for telling me that. Sincerely.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by BillHz60

.... You are the reason so many don't post their feelings here.
.

I am sorry you are having such a rough time, but I have never found this to be the case.

[feralkittymom]

I tend to think, too, that forgiveness is highly over-rated. It certainly is not some sort of short cut to healing, nor replacement for healing. Detachment from the painful enmeshment is definitely healing. Self-forgiveness is definitely healing. But if trying to forgive others creates more self-hate, I don't see it as beneficial, at least not at the present time.

I've never forgiven my parents. I detached from the painful emotions, came to understand a little of what might have prompted their actions, and have even felt a certain sympathy for them as human beings. But all of that is different from forgiveness. And appreciating and respecting myself was never tied to a need to forgive them.

[Solepa]

I find it difficult to specify what forgiveness is. But to answer your question I believe it is a choice (act) that needs to be based on emotions to be truly genuine. My father did some horrible things to me when I was a child. When I was 24 yo he was dying of cancer for two years. This whole time I was trying to make myself to forgive him but I just could not do it in the way I wanted. I wanted for him to die in peace. I took care of him for these two years I was not scared of him I did not feel anger towards him anymore, but I could not ever love him again. I could never tell him I love him or anything on that note. In my brain I decided to do it but I just could not. So it sure has a lot to do with emotions. At least in my opinion.
I guess it would be different if he would still be alive but I feel very guilty for not being able to forgive him when I had the chance.
I don´t know how it works for self forgiveness but I would think the dynamic would by similar. You can decide to do it, somebody could tell you you should do it, but can you really when you are not ready on the emotional side???
But maybe my view of what forgiveness is, is wrong. Maybe it is not the need to feel love again maybe it is just the absence of anger or hate which I do not feel. In that way I have forgiven my father. I do understed him much more and his actions and I know he loved me and he did his best in his situation. But unfortunately he never got to know that.

I struggled with the idea of forgiveness for years, but I finally understood it, for me, to be a decision to find some peace with a situation/person. So I guess I see it as an action (letting go) which results in a feeling (peace).

I think forgiveness (and acceptance) are acts.

However, they have a lot of emotion tied to them for sure.

Perhaps that's why it's so difficult to get there.

[Perna]

I think forgiveness is a process, much like grief. I don't believe you can forgive until you have gone through the grief process for what acts/consequences you feel need forgiving. Hurting implies grief and grieving (or being able to fix through the use of anger) is necessary when we have lost something or had it taken from us that was important to us.