I have noticed this subject popping up a bit on threads lately and I suppose my own rupture with my new t has got me thinking.
Do you find that therapists think they are too clever and don't have to apologise? Or they don't see us as equals and therefore they don't owe us an apology or is it the fact that they can't admit they were wrong and feel the need to blame their patients for everything.

As most of you know already, my new t whom I have seen for 4 or 5 sessions didn't show up for two of those sessions and one other was extremely late. When I text her to see if she was coming or forgot she rang but I was already in car on way home so she left a voicemail saying she didn't have my name in her diary and apologised, told me to contact her for another appt. She seemed more worried about rescheduling. So that evening I sent her an email saying I would not be going to see her anymore because I felt abandoned and rejected and didn't want to get hurt anymore. Next day she sent a snooty email saying I was choosing to hurt myself- she hadn't forgotten about me and that it was my fault because I was percieving the whole situation entirely wrong. I was disgusted by her lack of remorse and lack of feelings for a client who was hurting and suffered many losses and rejection.

So, I have been thinking about this a lot and have mixed feelings baout the whole thing and about therapists who can't admit they were wrong.

My old t never apologized even when she did something wrong.it was like she thout she could do no wrong, and i resented her for it.i always felt likei was beneath her.
Nw t apologizes.i appreciate her a lot more because she owns up to her feelings and the things she says/ does wrong. This t and i are equals.

[tinyrabbit]

I would have more of an issue with her criticism and invalidation of your feelings. She should be trying to see the situation from your point of view, as you experienced it. It's your experience. Telling you it's wrong doesn't magically change how you feel.

My T does sometimes apologise but I seem to actually find it pretty meaningless. What matters to me is when he acknowledges what I have experienced and reacts to it, eg "it makes me feel really upset to hear that".

I don't think it's very good that she emailed you like that. I would go for another session and talk to her about all this. It's not about being "wrong" but about how you each experienced the situation.

I think sometimes it's a foible of being human - not wanting to look at and own your own stuff or admit you were wrong. Sometimes it is misunderstanding on one or both sides. I also think some things are easier to apologise and take responsibility for than others - whether consciously or subconsciously.. and then it maybe also depends on how the other party is handling what has happened, how they react, and how that is interpreted... Very complicated, this therapy lark.

[~EnlightenMe~]

I find it hard to believe that she said you were perceiving the whole thing wrong?? Your perceptions are your own, and from what I heard you saying, she failed to show for your appointment.

I don't think one can pinpoint why some therapists do and some don't, and all people in general. To me, it would have been a common courtesy to apologize for not being there, and it would have been therapeutical had she validated your feelings. ((((Button))))))

Originally Posted by Starry_Night

My old t never apologized even when she did something wrong.it was like she thout she could do no wrong, and i resented her for it.i always felt likei was beneath her.
Nw t apologizes.i appreciate her a lot more because she owns up to her feelings and the things she says/ does wrong. This t and i are equals.

OLd T = very bad T. I don't see what is so hard about apologising and owning our stuff. They teach us about it all the time.

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

I would have more of an issue with her criticism and invalidation of your feelings. She should be trying to see the situation from your point of view, as you experienced it. It's your experience. Telling you it's wrong doesn't magically change how you feel.

My T does sometimes apologise but I seem to actually find it pretty meaningless. What matters to me is when he acknowledges what I have experienced and reacts to it, eg "it makes me feel really upset to hear that".

I don't think it's very good that she emailed you like that. I would go for another session and talk to her about all this. It's not about being "wrong" but about how you each experienced the situation.

Exactly TR,
Just becuase she said its wrong doesn't mean it was wrong and my feelings will just evaporate into thin air. I hate the way She also put (EX) therapist like that arghhhhhhh.
I am glad that your t can at least relate to your feelings and have a little empathy.

Originally Posted by just_some_girl

I think sometimes it's a foible of being human - not wanting to look at and own your own stuff or admit you were wrong. Sometimes it is misunderstanding on one or both sides. I also think some things are easier to apologise and take responsibility for than others - whether consciously or subconsciously.. and then it maybe also depends on how the other party is handling what has happened, how they react, and how that is interpreted... Very complicated, this therapy lark.

It is very complicated JSG, sometimes it fries my brains. I think you are right though it depends mostly on both parties and how they handle situations

Originally Posted by Antimatter

I find it hard to believe that she said you were perceiving the whole thing wrong?? Your perceptions are your own, and from what I heard you saying, she failed to show for your appointment.

I don't think one can pinpoint why some therapists do and some don't, and all people in general. To me, it would have been a common courtesy to apologize for not being there, and it would have been therapeutical had she validated your feelings. ((((Button))))))

Anti
It would have been therapuetic for me because I felt so alone and rejected and she would have known that. FOr any patient it could have been traumatic.

PS. I hope you are doing better tonight

[rainboots87]

My long term T's have never had a problem apologizing to me, though I don't remember much about the others. My last T apologized for having to cancel an appointment (only twice- once a family thing & once because she was sick). She also apologized a few times about not responding to a message I sent (various reasons- didn't realize I wanted a response, battery died and got message days later, etc.). She wouldn't just apologize for nothing though and didn't let me either. I appreciated her being able to admit to her mistakes.

It sucks that your T tried to blame you here. I feel like that's not a T thing, but just something that certain people do. I've had to learn to accept responsibility myself.

Our poor fried brains!!

[doyoutrustme]

Therapists are supposed to be equals to the patient. My T appologizes when he's wrong all the time.

Originally Posted by just_some_girl

Our poor fried brains!!

I wonder would our therapists take responsiblity for frying them or blame us lol!
Seriously though this blimmin therapy is starting to drive me crazy. I am watching everything I say and everything everyone else says

[~EnlightenMe~]

Our poor fried brains!!

OMG, JSG, you are SOOOOOOOOO right! I'm so over all of this. I wonder what it is like to not be in emotional pain. (((Hugs to all)))

[ultramar]

Originally Posted by button30

I have noticed this subject popping up a bit on threads lately and I suppose my own rupture with my new t has got me thinking.
Do you find that therapists think they are too clever and don't have to apologise? Or they don't see us as equals and therefore they don't owe us an apology or is it the fact that they can't admit they were wrong and feel the need to blame their patients for everything.

As most of you know already, my new t whom I have seen for 4 or 5 sessions didn't show up for two of those sessions and one other was extremely late. When I text her to see if she was coming or forgot she rang but I was already in car on way home so she left a voicemail saying she didn't have my name in her diary and apologised, told me to contact her for another appt. She seemed more worried about rescheduling. So that evening I sent her an email saying I would not be going to see her anymore because I felt abandoned and rejected and didn't want to get hurt anymore. Next day she sent a snooty email saying I was choosing to hurt myself- she hadn't forgotten about me and that it was my fault because I was percieving the whole situation entirely wrong. I was disgusted by her lack of remorse and lack of feelings for a client who was hurting and suffered many losses and rejection.

So, I have been thinking about this a lot and have mixed feelings baout the whole thing and about therapists who can't admit they were wrong.

I think therapists should own their mistakes, and also should acknowledge when something they have done (or not done) has hurt the client. On the other hand, I don't think therapists need to (or maybe should) own or take responsibility for a client's response/reaction to them. This is what needs to be discussed and worked out face to face in therapy (or not, if you choose to not come back). One thing is feeling empathy for someone who is hurting and who has a history of losses and rejection, quite another is to feel remorse (or guilty) for this.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by button30

I have noticed this subject popping up a bit on threads lately and I suppose my own rupture with my new t has got me thinking.
Do you find that therapists think they are too clever and don't have to apologise? Or they don't see us as equals and therefore they don't owe us an apology or is it the fact that they can't admit they were wrong and feel the need to blame their patients for everything.

As most of you know already, my new t whom I have seen for 4 or 5 sessions didn't show up for two of those sessions and one other was extremely late. When I text her to see if she was coming or forgot she rang but I was already in car on way home so she left a voicemail saying she didn't have my name in her diary and apologised, told me to contact her for another appt. She seemed more worried about rescheduling. So that evening I sent her an email saying I would not be going to see her anymore because I felt abandoned and rejected and didn't want to get hurt anymore. Next day she sent a snooty email saying I was choosing to hurt myself- she hadn't forgotten about me and that it was my fault because I was percieving the whole situation entirely wrong. I was disgusted by her lack of remorse and lack of feelings for a client who was hurting and suffered many losses and rejection.

So, I have been thinking about this a lot and have mixed feelings baout the whole thing and about therapists who can't admit they were wrong.

My old T never apologized, and never took ownership of her behavior when we were working things out. It was a little fuzzy - she didn't exactly blame me and my issues for everything. She more I guess acknowedged my discomfort, but that's as far as it went. I should have paid more attention - it was my first clue.

My new T owns his behavior. I'm not sure if he actually utters the words "I'm sorry" or not. But he owns his behavior, and agrees that it was hurtful, inapprorpaite, whatever, and if the situation calls for it, discusses how to avoid it, or deal with it in the future.

I think it's a bad sign if therapists can't acknowledge their own behavior and it's hurtful effect on the client (even if the client's issues are also involved).

[ultramar]

Did she say your feelings were "wrong?" What exactly did she say?

[feralkittymom]

From what I remember of your last thread about this incident, everyone agreed she was in the wrong to miss your appointment, but many disagreed with your interpretation of her e-mail. Did you never address this issue face-to-face? While you're always free to make a decision to quit a T at any time, I'm not sure it's beneficial to do so and then continue to seek justification through misunderstanding.

Meaningful apologies happen within relationship, and can lead to increased closeness, but only if both parties are willing to invest in them. Ts who won't miss an opportunity to heal; clients who won't miss out, also.

[EllieBear]

My current T apologizes for her part and has no problem doing that. Every other T I've seen made it all about "my issues" saying everything that happens in there is my issues playing out. Yes, my issues play out in there...that's what therapy is for. But it's not "my issue" if a therapist doesn't show up or is late or whatever. The first time my current T said she was sorry and took full ownership of a situation that I also thought really was her mistake, I was floored. We've talked about it several times and I think some therapists haven't dealt with their own issues enough to admit to a client that they messed up. The therapists I've seen that seem to feel the need to maintain that power differential in therapy are also the ones who won't apologize. I don't know if there is something to that or not.

[scorpiosis37]

I don't think I could work with a T who did not treat me as an equal or who lacked the insight, integrity and humility to take ownership for her part in the relationship and any mistakes she may make. I've been with my current T for 3 years and I really don't think she has made any great foibles. However, I do recall one time when I was dissatisfied with how she addressed a particular conversation. She didn't do anything wrong per se, but I felt that she was misunderstanding me and failing to respond to my emotional needs. In the following session, I brought this up and told her that I felt disappointed. I didn't accuse her of anything or tell her that she was wrong; I just told her how what she said made me feel and how I felt misunderstood. She instantly "got it" and apologized. She said "what I said last session was totally unhelpful. What you needed was X and what I gave you was Y. In the future, I will be sure to give you X. Thank-you for bringing this up; I'm glad that I understand you now." It was incredibly validating and made me feel a thousand times better. So now, whenever I feel like T and I are failing to understanding one another (which is rare), I stop and tell her so. I calmly explain things to her as I see them (without accusing/blaming her), and we talk through it until we're on the same page. If she feels as though she misunderstood something, she apologizes. If I feel I misunderstood something, I apologize. (We both also have a tendency to be 3-5 minutes late. So, if I'm the one who's late, I apologize and if she's the one who's late, she apologizes). This has allowed us to avoid having any ruptures or taking any steps backwards. I think her willingness to own her part in our relationship is one of the things that makes her a great T.

[autumnleaves]

I would say that it's possible that she felt uncomfortable about the personal tone of the email. It is possible that she wasn't comfortable being addressed in such an honest manner about how you felt (ironically enough, for a therapist). In other words, she may have wished that you had been more "professional" about the email rather than personal. While this wish is perfectly accurate and acceptable to most every other profession, I think therapists should be open to being addressed in an emotionally direct manner. Also, if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that therapists do often suffer from "ivory tower syndrome" in that they are the ones doling out support and advice so often that they sometimes forget that they are fallible or vulnerable to making a mistake. A truly great practitioner finds the balance between the supportive, knowledgable therapist, and the perfectly flawed human being.

Originally Posted by ultramar

Did she say your feelings were "wrong?" What exactly did she say?

She said that I took it personally when it was an administration error and that she did not forgett about me. She was distracted at our last session and forgot to write it in the book.
She also said that The getting hurt part was a coincidence, and how much you hurt yourself around it depends on how you choose to think about it in the context in which you are. If that makes sense.

[SoupDragon]

Your feelings were not right or wrong, feelings are just as they are - they are based on our appraisal of a situation and sometimes that can be based on prior experiences etc.. It sounds as if your feelings were based on the belief that she had forgotten about you and didn't care, so therefore feeling that way is understandable.

But hypothetically, what if it were "just" an administration error and she had not forgotten about you?

Originally Posted by ultramar

Did she say your feelings were "wrong?" What exactly did she say?

Originally Posted by SoupDragon

Your feelings were not right or wrong, feelings are just as they are - they are based on our appraisal of a situation and sometimes that can be based on prior experiences etc.. It sounds as if your feelings were based on the belief that she had forgotten about you and didn't care, so therefore feeling that way is understandable.

But hypothetically, what if it were "just" an administration error and she had not forgotten about you?

Well if that was the case which I now know it is the result is still the same, she wasn't there! I have never known a doctor or a dentist to not show up for an appt. it was a mistake I realise that but for her to not understand how it felt to be stood up, it's absurd!
I just wish she could have understood that it hurt and if she had of just said sorry I would have been ok about it.

[Syra]

Seems to me if I inconvenience someone because of my mistake, I should apologize. That's true if I'm the client, and it's true if I am the T (which won't happen, but if...) Not some dramatic apology with tears and confession. Just a simple acknowledgement that I inconvenienced someone in a way that impacted their life and I wish I hadn't and I regret it (or more simply: I'm sorry).

The fact that the other person may have responded more dramatically than was warranted (and I'm not saying it was, I'm just recognizing that she is saying it was) does not change her behavior or her mistake. It would just as easy if the roles were reversed for T to suggest that your "mistake" was the unconscious or subconscious revealing true feelings.

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by button30

She said that I took it personally when it was an administration error and that she did not forgett about me. She was distracted at our last session and forgot to write it in the book.
She also said that The getting hurt part was a coincidence, and how much you hurt yourself around it depends on how you choose to think about it in the context in which you are. If that makes sense.

This has made me really mad on your behalf. You can't just choose not to be hurt. And I don't believe in coincidences, necessarily. Consciously, she made an admin error. Unconsciously? Who knows. You can't know. You only know how it's affecting you.

Your T should accept you as you are, not how she thinks you should be.

[pbutton]

Mine apologizes and will own his stuff. However, he will not apologize for disagreeing with me when I veer off into the area of unhealthy interactions and behaviors.

Once he gave me a DBT exercise that I did not like. I flipped into panic mode. He later apologized and said it was a poor fit and not a good decision on his part. Now we joke about the new DBT book he bought and how he did not buy it to use with me.

[stopdog]

I think therapists use a various things, including apology or lack thereof, to manipulate clients.