[rainbow8]

I'm very curious about my screaming in the car after my session. I've done that once or twice before. I know I was frustrated and angry in the session, but I held back. I played with a koosh ball "necklace" toy my T has (not sure how to describe it) that I had never picked up before. I don't think it totally registered that she was suggesting termination of therapy by December.

The screams were obviously a deep reaction to the idea of separation from my T, and I know it's transference. It HAS to be from the past, probably a preverbal time. It kind of brings my attention to the severe rage I feel about separation, something I've never been able to make clear when I talk about it, or experience it, in any of my therapy all of these years. It seemed like the screams weren't coming from me; they weren't ME, or at least not who I think I am. They were utterly spontaneous and filled with anguish, and I couldn't stop until I was "done". It seems so weird now that I think about it!

I looked up "primal scream therapy" which was popular in the 60's. Dr. Janus wrote the book, The Primal Scream. He has a new book about it. I'm not interested in pursuing that kind of therapy, but it was interesting to read about.

I want to talk to my T about it, of course, and I'm hoping she will say that SE (Somatic Experiencing)can address it. It seems like this is it! I was/am enraged at the thought of separating from her and it's irrational. It makes me think there IS something in my past that happened, or WHY would I scream like that? It's NOT about my T at all. People have left me but I never screamed like that. I didn't cry much, and I never screamed like that when my Mom died.

Not everyone feels the loss of the "golden fantasy", the infant bliss, that Moon posted about, and that Judith Viorst discusses in Necessary Losses, do they? Is it inside of all of us, or does my screaming mean that something tangible happened to me? I don't expect anyone to have the answers, but I am looking at this as an outsider, and saying "WOW", I can't believe there are such powerful feelings inside of me about separation!! It shows me that my "pattern" has served a purpose. I have this terror of separation.

Any thoughts? Maybe the screaming was like a flashback but to a preverbal time because there were absolutely NO memories associated with it.

I really feel that this is some kind of huge breakthrough for me!

[blur]

rainbow, i think it's good that you got your anger out in such a safe fashion and i'm glad that you felt better afterward. you seem to be wondering what this is all about and i remember you clearly saying here once that if you never left therapy it would be like your mom never died. i think you may have also said termination being like a death but i'm not positive about that last one.

i think the death of your mom is the big thing that you haven't really addressed in your life but it is absolutely terrifying for you to admit. instead, you tell yourself that you don't know where all your angst is coming from and you are confused and that something may have happened in your early childhood that you don't remember. i can totally understand that it would be easier to tell yourself you don't know what is causing all your pain than to admit to what it is because once you admit what the problem is then you have to face it. i think your confusion and not knowing is all a way to keep you safe from grieving the loss of your mom. you've gone over your entire life very intricately and i think if there were something traumatic lurking in your past causing this pain you and your T would have definitely found it by now. there not being any memory attached to the extreme anger you felt doesn't mean you have repressed a memory but rather in your case that you are cut off from your feelings.

i think if you just allow yourself to deal with your grief fully over losing your mom you will be able to move forward in life and not have all these T fantasies. because your mom didn't really let you separate (individuate) as a child you have had an extremely difficult time accepting her death. you have mentioned that you think there was some unmet need your mom didn't provide for. i think it is the opposite in that your mom gave you too much attention and didn't allow you to separate. i don't think there was an unmet need other than individuation. i think maybe your angst is like a double loss because of that lack of individuation.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by blur

rainbow, i think it's good that you got your anger out in such a safe fashion and i'm glad that you felt better afterward. you seem to be wondering what this is all about and i remember you clearly saying here once that if you never left therapy it would be like your mom never died. i think you may have also said termination being like a death but i'm not positive about that last one.

i think the death of your mom is the big thing that you haven't really addressed in your life but it is absolutely terrifying for you to admit. instead, you tell yourself that you don't know where all your angst is coming from and you are confused and that something may have happened in your early childhood that you don't remember. i can totally understand that it would be easier to tell yourself you don't know what is causing all your pain than to admit to what it is because once you admit what the problem is then you have to face it. i think your confusion and not knowing is all a way to keep you safe from grieving the loss of your mom. you've gone over your entire life very intricately and i think if there were something traumatic lurking in your past causing this pain you and your T would have definitely found it by now. there not being any memory attached to the extreme anger you felt doesn't mean you have repressed a memory but rather in your case that you are cut off from your feelings.

i think if you just allow yourself to deal with your grief fully over losing your mom you will be able to move forward in life and not have all these T fantasies. because your mom didn't really let you separate (individuate) as a child you have had an extremely difficult time accepting her death. i think maybe it is like a double loss because of that lack of individuation.

Thanks, blur. Well, it could be from being in the incubator. But you could be right also. I have addressed and grieved for my Mom, mostly with my current T. I don't know what more I can do. I keep writing letters "to her" and have written some back from her, in my past therapies. I've told my T that I miss my Mom, more than once. I've talked about her a lot! Maybe it's not "fully" though. I think not separating from her when I was a child may have a lot to do with it. I agree to that part, that it is a double loss. In any case, I do realize it's not about my T, once and for all. I know I slip back a lot, but I think I'm seeing reality more and more.

I remember saying that if I never quit T it's like my Mom never died but I don't know if I believe that or not. I know in the book August, the main character says "after the first death there is no other." That always made me feel something. I have said that quitting therapy feels like death, I think. I remember more saying "it feels like 1000 arrows piercing my heart". I guess that's similar.

Rainbow
My heart goes out to you. You are in such pain and turmoil at the moment aren't you?
I feel you are punishing yourself for feeling something that is totally natural. I hope you can learn to accept this part of you. I know your t does and your family. Loving your t is not a crime, it's expected, they are one of the few people in our lives who will accept us for who we truly are, they will not judge us and do their best to support us. Naturally losing this relationship will cause you terrible pain that will bring out this feeling that we are losing something that we can't lose, something that is precious and sacred. I think this screaming is primal and it is a part of your ID, Freuds states. The ID is our child state, the one with the primal needs, the part of us that throws tantrums because we want something now.
Don't be ashamed of this I would like to connect with my ID

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by blur

i think if you just allow yourself to deal with your grief fully over losing your mom you will be able to move forward in life and not have all these T fantasies. because your mom didn't really let you separate (individuate) as a child you have had an extremely difficult time accepting her death. you have mentioned that you think there was some unmet need your mom didn't provide for. i think it is the opposite in that your mom gave you too much attention and didn't allow you to separate. i don't think there was an unmet need other than individuation. i think maybe your angst is like a double loss because of that lack of individuation.

This rings true, blur. My Mom did not let me separate though I did a good job during college. At separating, I mean. She wasn't selfish, though, or narcististic. Not that you're saying that. She just loved me very much and didn't let me go out on my own. I agree. It's very sad that she died so young; she so much wanted to see her grandchild go to school. I wish she had known her other grandchildren. I wish she had known my daughter. I don't know what it is to grieve fully. My T had me make the collage, and talk about her, and I cried when I wrote my letter on Mother's Day. I don't know what more I can do. I'll ask my T.

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Rainbow
My heart goes out to you. You are in such pain and turmoil at the moment aren't you?
I feel you are punishing yourself for feeling something that is totally natural. I hope you can learn to accept this part of you. I know your t does and your family. Loving your t is not a crime, it's expected, they are one of the few people in our lives who will accept us for who we truly are, they will not judge us and do their best to support us. Naturally losing this relationship will cause you terrible pain that will bring out this feeling that we are losing something that we can't lose, something that is precious and sacred. I think this screaming is primal and it is a part of your ID, Freuds states. The ID is our child state, the one with the primal needs, the part of us that throws tantrums because we want something now.
Don't be ashamed of this I would like to connect with my ID

Thank you, mls. I'm not ashamed of the screaming and the love for my T. Well, maybe I'm a little ashamed of it. I am accepting my feelings, but I need to do more so that I can leave my T when I have to. It's more than just losing the T relationship. I think blur is right. It's terror and rage about my Mom, probably all mixed up because she was so close to me. Yet in some ways, she wasn't close to me. It's complicated. It's not just this T; it's most of them. I am going to try to work it out with my T, and do the SE that she says will help me.

[blur]

rain, i don't think your mom was selfish at all but she was probably very overprotective, possibly because of your being in an incubator. at the time you did kind of make a big deal of it when i responded to that comment of yours about staying in T forever would be like your mom never died. you sent me a long PM about it and commented that i was the only one to pick up on that sentence of yours in a thread that had gone on for many pages. it seemed quite significant to you at the time.

i think the fact that you say you have not cried much about your mom's death is very telling. considering how close you were to your mom that sounds very unusual. i think it is the emotional grieving you still need to do over her death. talking is good but feeling the painful feelings is the bigger part for most of us when it comes to grieving. you have also said many times how afraid you are of your T dying when she travels. while i agree that being in an incubator could have something to do with your angst a thread that keeps coming up in your therapy is death which points back to the death of your mom.

your T can probably help you access your emotions about your mom's loss. i would think part of grieving is probably dealing with what the transference triggers in you when it happens, like when your T goes on trips and you fear her dying, rather than focusing so much on your T. focusing on your T seems to be another big distraction for you. i do think you are starting to get better at refocusing the triggers back onto your own life.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by blur

rain, i don't think your mom was selfish at all but she was probably very overprotective, possibly because of your being in an incubator. at the time you did kind of make a big deal of it when i responded to that comment of yours about staying in T forever would be like your mom never died. you sent me a long PM about it and commented that i was the only one to pick up on that sentence of yours in a thread that had gone on for many pages. it seemed quite significant to you at the time.

i think the fact that you say you have not cried much about your mom's death is very telling. considering how close you were to your mom that sounds very unusual. i think it is the emotional grieving you still need to do over her death. talking is good but feeling the painful feelings is the bigger part for most of us when it comes to grieving. you have also said many times how afraid you are of your T dying when she travels. while i agree that being in an incubator could have something to do with your angst a thread that keeps coming up in your therapy is death which points back to the death of your mom.

your T can probably help you access your emotions about your mom's loss. i would think part of grieving is probably dealing with what the transference triggers in you when it happens, like when your T goes on trips and you fear her dying, rather than focusing so much on your T. focusing on your T seems to be another big distraction for you. i do think you are starting to get better at refocusing the triggers back onto your own life.

I only vaguely remember that PM to you; I'm going to look it up. I'm afraid of losing anyone when they travel--my H, my kids, and myself. I acknowledge that it is strange that I didn't want to talk about my Mom when I began therapy. It was only about 3 months after she died, but I didn't think it was important to discuss. My T thought it stange, too, when she found out. But now it's SO long ago it's hard to access my emotions but I can sometimes.

I hardly ever cry with other people but I have cried in recent years about my Mom. Focusing on my T is always a distraction. Part of that is the "in love" aspect which may be another issue, not to do with my mother at all.
Yes, I realize the triggers about my T are all about my own life. Thinking about losing her can make me cry easily, and some of that is real, not transference but most of my feelings about her are transference.

My Mom was overprotective of my brother, too, and he wasn't in an incubator. It's her personality. I'm sure a lot was to do with my being premature, too. It's her anxiety, which is what I inherited, unfortunately.
Thanks, blue, for showing so much interest in me, and for remembering details that I posted, that I forgot!

[almostthere]

Hi Rainbow8....
I'm known in this community as "allmostthere".

I've read your post and am deeply touched by what u said.
Years ago I gave up on therapy and refused to see any more therapist.
But since then life has presented to me some extremely difficult challenges that have tested my tolerance for survival to the max. Needless to say I'm back at therapy trying to give it another try. In the past I didn't give it much of a chance to work. Yes, I was resisting the whole process because I had to dig deep into my past which i tried so hard to hide in order for me to maintain a "normal" life and give everyone around me, including my family, the impression that everything was ok with me. What a lie that was.

Anyway, I have a good therapist now and i think we have established a good connection. My only fear, which i suppose is what u r feeling now, is losing her and having to start all over again. At the stage of my life right now I don't think I can continue if I can't keep my present T.

I'm probably much older than u and have gone through a lot in my life.
But although i may stumble and fall in my journey in life I somehow find the strength to carry on because i know that someday I will reach that raimbow in the sky.

Keep your faith in yourself and don't let anyone, or any situation, take that away from u... OK?

Wishing all the best,

"almostthere"

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I'm very curious about my screaming in the car after my session. I've done that once or twice before. I know I was frustrated and angry in the session, but I held back. I played with a koosh ball "necklace" toy my T has (not sure how to describe it) that I had never picked up before. I don't think it totally registered that she was suggesting termination of therapy by December.

The screams were obviously a deep reaction to the idea of separation from my T, and I know it's transference. It HAS to be from the past, probably a preverbal time. It kind of brings my attention to the severe rage I feel about separation, something I've never been able to make clear when I talk about it, or experience it, in any of my therapy all of these years. It seemed like the screams weren't coming from me; they weren't ME, or at least not who I think I am. They were utterly spontaneous and filled with anguish, and I couldn't stop until I was "done". It seems so weird now that I think about it!

I looked up "primal scream therapy" which was popular in the 60's. Dr. Janus wrote the book, The Primal Scream. He has a new book about it. I'm not interested in pursuing that kind of therapy, but it was interesting to read about.

I want to talk to my T about it, of course, and I'm hoping she will say that SE (Somatic Experiencing)can address it. It seems like this is it! I was/am enraged at the thought of separating from her and it's irrational. It makes me think there IS something in my past that happened, or WHY would I scream like that? It's NOT about my T at all. People have left me but I never screamed like that. I didn't cry much, and I never screamed like that when my Mom died.

Not everyone feels the loss of the "golden fantasy", the infant bliss, that Moon posted about, and that Judith Viorst discusses in Necessary Losses, do they? Is it inside of all of us, or does my screaming mean that something tangible happened to me? I don't expect anyone to have the answers, but I am looking at this as an outsider, and saying "WOW", I can't believe there are such powerful feelings inside of me about separation!! It shows me that my "pattern" has served a purpose. I have this terror of separation.

Any thoughts? Maybe the screaming was like a flashback but to a preverbal time because there were absolutely NO memories associated with it.

I really feel that this is some kind of huge breakthrough for me!

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by almostthere

Hi Rainbow8....
I'm known in this community as "allmostthere".

I've read your post and am deeply touched by what u said.
Years ago I gave up on therapy and refused to see any more therapist.
But since then life has presented to me some extremely difficult challenges that have tested my tolerance for survival to the max. Needless to say I'm back at therapy trying to give it another try. In the past I didn't give it much of a chance to work. Yes, I was resisting the whole process because I had to dig deep into my past which i tried so hard to hide in order for me to maintain a "normal" life and give everyone around me, including my family, the impression that everything was ok with me. What a lie that was.

Anyway, I have a good therapist now and i think we have established a good connection. My only fear, which i suppose is what u r feeling now, is losing her and having to start all over again. At the stage of my life right now I don't think I can continue if I can't keep my present T.

I'm probably much older than u and have gone through a lot in my life.
But although i may stumble and fall in my journey in life I somehow find the strength to carry on because i know that someday I will reach that raimbow in the sky.

Keep your faith in yourself and don't let anyone, or any situation, take that away from u... OK?

Wishing all the best,

"almostthere"

Thanks very much, almostthere. One thing I know is that you are probably NOT much older than me. I've been married 40 years. I'm not going to see any more Ts after this one. She is my 5th T and I can't go through it again. I'm sorry you've had a difficult life but you sound so optimistic now. I'll try to keep faith in myself, too. I hope we both find those rainbows in the sky. It's never too late, right?