I'm still trying to understand why I found my therapy (which I have not quite quit yet) so hard.

She gave some really quite profound insights to me, and at the time it felt ok, but afterwoods I could feel somehow violated or shattered. Does anyone relate to what I am saying? I feel like she did it all too soon, I think she should have let the relationship develop so we had a stable base before this. I'm not even sure if I want the insights from her, perhaps she could leave me to figure these things out myself?

The dismantling of our defences is the hardest thing a human could ever face.
That is what happens in analyst.
Personally as hard as it is, I wouldn't have it any other way.
ut does take great courage. I can't live with my own thoughts if being a coward.
But that's just me. Who I am.

Originally Posted by Brown Owl

I'm still trying to understand why I found my therapy (which I have not quite quit yet) so hard.

She gave some really quite profound insights to me, and at the time it felt ok, but afterwoods I could feel somehow violated or shattered. Does anyone relate to what I am saying? I feel like she did it all too soon, I think she should have let the relationship develop so we had a stable base before this. I'm not even sure if I want the insights from her, perhaps she could leave me to figure these things out myself?

I do understand what you are saying, Brown Owl. Being seen so deeply is very hard and painful. It can be enlightening and wonderful too, but in our quietest and most painful moments it can be extremely hard.

I agree with Mouse that it takes a lot of courage, but I also believe that to get to that point of being able to tolerate the level of vulnerability needed in analysis, you need to work with a therapist for a while; you have to relax into the relationship and allow your defenses to lower at a rate you feel comfortable. I do believe, in this rush and hurry up and get through this world, some therapists move too quickly. It doesn't have to terribly wound their clients with the rush to "heal" but every person is an individual and the rate they get to that place of safe vulnerability and openness is different for each person. I think you are courageous and open to analysis, but maybe you need to pull back a little and let your therapist know how painful the process is for you right now and you need to slow down a bit. Even talking about slowing down and quitting is a great topic in psychoanalysis!

It is very difficult you are correct and as my t says from time to time "Not everyone is brave enough to do this work." I agree with Jaybird too that even talking about slowing down is a good topic.

This beautifully eloquent statement especially rings very very true for me: "Being seen so deeply is very hard and painful. It can be enlightening and wonderful too, but in our quietest and most painful moments it can be extremely hard."

And learning how to see ourselves that deeply.... wow.

Brown Owl, are you in analysis or psychotherapy? I tried analysis once, but did not last longer than 2 months. Too intense.

Originally Posted by _Mouse

The dismantling of our defences is the hardest thing a human could ever face.
That is what happens in analyst.
Personally as hard as it is, I wouldn't have it any other way.
ut does take great courage. I can't live with my own thoughts if being a coward.
But that's just me. Who I am.

Mouse you've been doing this for about 11 years I think? Did you start off slowly? I really wish my T could pipe down and slow down. I have asked her, still discussing it. Seems so simple to me...

Originally Posted by licketysplit

Brown Owl, are you in analysis or psychotherapy? I tried analysis once, but did not last longer than 2 months. Too intense.

It is psychotherapy, but she is very analytical. I've stumbled into this with my eyes closed. I initially went thinking I'd go for 12 weeks, had no idea it was going to be like this. A friend recommended her to me. It has been helpful, but ....

I'm not sure about starting slowly. The unconscious has its own pace.
I just, did it.

Originally Posted by Jaybird57

I do understand what you are saying, Brown Owl. Being seen so deeply is very hard and painful. It can be enlightening and wonderful too, but in our quietest and most painful moments it can be extremely hard.

I agree with Mouse that it takes a lot of courage, but I also believe that to get to that point of being able to tolerate the level of vulnerability needed in analysis, you need to work with a therapist for a while; you have to relax into the relationship and allow your defenses to lower at a rate you feel comfortable. I do believe, in this rush and hurry up and get through this world, some therapists move too quickly. It doesn't have to terribly wound their clients with the rush to "heal" but every person is an individual and the rate they get to that place of safe vulnerability and openness is different for each person. I think you are courageous and open to analysis, but maybe you need to pull back a little and let your therapist know how painful the process is for you right now and you need to slow down a bit. Even talking about slowing down and quitting is a great topic in psychoanalysis!

Thanks JayBird you expressed so perfectly what I have been struggling to understand when you said 'being seen so deeply..'. It is really reassuring to me to my feelings expressed by someone else. My T does seem to be hurrying through this.

[JustShakey]

Originally Posted by _Mouse

I'm not sure about starting slowly. The unconscious has its own pace.
I just, did it.

This. I literally went headfirst into the deep end without any idea of what was happening. I think previous T was almost as thrown as I was about it. Since then I've learned to slow down a bit, but it was something I had to learn.

[ECHOES]

Exploring our perceptions is a great thing, and it can leaves us feeling vulnerable as old ways drop away and it takes time for the new ways that evolve to feel comfortable and familiar. I agree that it is a time of feeling especially vulnerable, 'naked', and it's good to talk about it when it happens. It's possible to slow the pace. Sometimes I've requested we slow the pace just because I'm in a place that I like, and I want to stay there a while. Maybe it's a need, too!

[archipelago]

I'm in analytically oriented therapy, which at times has become full on analysis (like daily sessions). I wonder what type of approach your therapist has. There are many different schools and they differ quite a lot on how they do things. Some have abandoned both interpretation (insight) and dismantling defenses almost all together. There is a lot of movement toward attunement and non-verbal regulation of affect which cannot be done in words though they can be talked about afterwards or in general. There are also moves toward enactments which bring forward non-verbal, unrepresented material in both patient and analyst and then work this through as a process together. In these approaches the relationship is center stage. After all insight is great at times but it is well known that people don't necessarily change due to insight. Emotions and unformulated experience/parts of self not to mention the unconscious are just not very affected by intellectual and cognitive processing. It may help contain or explain things, but not actual do any real work. My therapist often says that one should hold one's theories lightly. That is you don't hammer away at something because you are convinced it is the truth meanwhile ignoring everything else.

You say it is well known that people don't necessarily change due to insight - this is one of my questions - is this analysis/ insight really necessary? To me it feels that if she cut it out for now and explored my way of seeing my life this would be much more therapeutic. I like the sound of attunement and non verbal regulation of affect - I'm guessing what those phrases mean.

I don't really know much about what her approach is.

[archipelago]

It sounds like you have good sense of what you want and what you don't feel is helpful. Some in this field say that getting to the subjective truth, which is exactly what you are getting at by saying "my way of seeing my life," is the most important thing. Or crucial. That is not achieved by imposing an interpretation from another point of view. It happens through empathy, meaning "vicarious introspection," being able to understand and even think by trying to meet the other person's situation as it is. People respond to true empathy, true understanding, and feel matched and attuned to. This then has broader effects. In particular schools, there is a sense that the analyst and patient come together in what they call "relationality" or "relational regulation" or "relational mind." This is not about insights given from a distance. This is about getting involved actively in the process of being with another person in their own subjective truth and complexity. Your job at first is to know your own truth and self. Later perhaps knowing things more interpersonally. But the first project of knowing yourself is interpersonal in therapy.

Archi your words make so much sense. At my last appointment, in quite a round about way, I bought up with my T my views that other things are more important to me in therapy than the insight she gives, though the insight is also helpful. She made one quick comment and we moved on, I don't think she had any idea what I was trying to say. As is typical she didn't explore what I was really trying to say and I didn't say hang on there was something I was trying to say and you haven't understood it. It may sound like it is not great therapy, but I wonder if the process of me overcoming my fear and anxiety and bringing this up again and actually saying what I really think may be hugely therapeutic. More therapeutic than if she had been the perfect listener in the first place and drawn it out of me herself? I'm afraid to talk about my views as the insight seems so important to her.

[archipelago]

It may be a hugely important thing for you to try to do. I don't know how she would react though. I tried to look for something on the limits of interpretation that you could read and/or show her, but couldn't find anything handy. Unfortunately if she is not all that flexible and only uses interpretation I'm not sure how she would be without it.

Thanks for looking for me.

Here's one Brown Owl: © PSYCHOMEDIA - JOURNAL OF EUROPEAN PSYCHOANALYSIS - Interpretation and Change in Psychoanalysis: What is Left of Classical Interpretation - Lucia Pancheri

I've told my therapist several times about needing more than interpretations. It's the 'felt' experiences that I need...that's what corresponds with the pre-verbal stuff.

Interpretations, I think, may be better suited for things past the pre-verbal age. I think this is where analytically-oriented therapists can go wrong.

So yeah, this used to be a long time complaint of mine Brown Owl, it's gotten better though.

Brown Owl, you might try reading: Jon Allen PhD Restoring Mentalizing in Attachment Relationships: Treating Trauma with Plain Old Therapy. He talks a lot about he learned that putting the "brilliant interpretations" on the back shelf and concentrating on deeply listening to clients is the road to healing. It's a great book and probably describing exactly what you are looking for in therapy. He does relational psychoanalysis and has incorporated a lot of the mentalizing techinques developed by UK's Fonagy and Batemen's Mentalizing Therapy. Very readable book and something you could suggest to your therapist.

Thanks Mian, that is a really interesting article.

Jaybird I will have a look at that book in the library.

I imagine that if I stayed with this T for a long time and got a stable relationship with her the interpretation would be ok.

[wotchermuggle]

From my experience with "insight", the important part of the equation was whether or not I was ready to accept that insight and make changes based on it. My current T called me out on something very early on but I've only recently come to accept it as truth and try to move through it. Insight is great but you have to want to change for things to be different. I tell you, this aspect of coming to terms and choosing a different life path has been excruciatingly difficult. At times I've lamented that I didn't know what to do to change the situation and my T wouldn't necessarily say "you have to do X". He said he felt I knew what I had to do but was having trouble facing it. Once I resigned myself to the issue, I did know what to do to get out of it.

Originally Posted by wotchermuggle

From my experience with "insight", the important part of the equation was whether or not I was ready to accept that insight and make changes based on it. My current T called me out on something very early on but I've only recently come to accept it as truth and try to move through it. Insight is great but you have to want to change for things to be different. I tell you, this aspect of coming to terms and choosing a different life path has been excruciatingly difficult. At times I've lamented that I didn't know what to do to change the situation and my T wouldn't necessarily say "you have to do X". He said he felt I knew what I had to do but was having trouble facing it. Once I resigned myself to the issue, I did know what to do to get out of it.

Thanks, I've been thinking about your post. Your phrase 'excruciatingly difficult' rings true with me. Your post made me reflect on what changes I need. A major issue for me is my need to hide myself from my mother, which perhaps is why being seen by t is so excrutiatingly difficult.