An Argument With T

Comments/observations wanted and accepted. But I am feeling fragile- please don't yell at me. Please couch any criticism with kindness, ok? Ok?

I'm having kind of an argument with T. It's all mixed up about who is responsible for boundaries. I know legally she is responsible...but I told her I can't trust her to be responsible for *all* the boundaries. I've trusted other Ts to be ethical and to keep good boundaries...and things turned out almost as bad as they ever could! No!

It's all mixed up with the anniversary of the psychiatrist abuse...and how I blurted out my boundary to her..that I don't want her to "fall in love with me"- which I don't believe she would do...I just had to SAY it so I knew where *I* stood on the matter...and for HER to understand how I felt about the matter.

She seemed sad when she asked, "Have you been worrying about this?"

I am so sad! Now I think she thinks, "Ick!!" ...or is mad...or is worried about me saying I do not entirely trust her for certain things..No, I don't entirely trust ANYONE......and yes we will talk about this Saturday.

I say, we BOTH get to set boundaries...not just HER!

Like I said...this all bubbled up because of the anniversary of the past therapist abuse...and I'm not letting that happen to me EVER EVER AGAIN!

Your position seems perfectly sensible. What did T say, besides the question you quoted? You describe the situation as "an argument" but I don't see it.

Good luck on your journey!

I am willing to bet she will not be mad or think, ick. You have a right to set boundaries, no matter what. You both get to SET and SHARE your boundaries.

Sorry you are having to deal with the anniversary of a bad time in your life.

I'm so sorry you are hurting.

I will just say that if my T said that in a sad manner, it would mean that she hurt for me. That it hurt her to know I'd been wounded badly enough to have that fear. Possibly also that she felt bad she had not recognized my fear. It wouldn't mean she was grossed out or angry. She may be troubled that you are afraid she'd do something so unethical---ts are human and mine is occasionally hurt that I think she might treat me abusively.

But that doesn't make it wrong to say it. If you can't say whatever you think in therapy where can you say it?

Try to keep in mind that YOU are probably feeling very ashamed and angry on this anniversary. Its possible your T meant nothing bad and you are simply interpreting her comment through the lens of your own anger and shame...

I think that part of therapy is learning how to set healthy boundaries for ourselves. I don't think that the therapeutic relationship is exempt from that. As close as I feel to my t, I have very vocally set boundaries with her - for instance when she tried to get me to do role play where we would change places and she would speak as me and I would speak as my h. I said quite loudly and forcefully "NO!" and she backed off and hasn't mentioned it since.

eta: i'm sorry you are hurting over this.

Warm gentle thoughts coming your direction, Precaryous. I agree with you, I don't think that therapists are the only one's who get to determine what the boundaries are in therapy . . . heck, that's one of my biggest lessons in life--how to set my own boundaries and I was the one who had to decide what they were going to be, who needed to hear what they were and that I had to stick up for them once people knew what they were. I applaud you for speaking up and letting her know what was niggling at you about your relationship with her in therapy.

You mention that you had an "argument" with her in the title, but I couldn't determine from what you posted what she was argumentative about in regard to what you said to her. I imagine that when she said, "Have you been worrying about this?" and looked sad, it might have been because it made her sad that you hadn't felt safe enough to let her know what was pushing at you all this time. If she argued with you about letting HER determine the boundaries, I'd have challenged her too!

I'm so sorry you're hurting so badly from what that jerk of a psychiatrist did. Anniversaries are always so hard. What an a^# that man was/is! Take care of you!

This doesn't sound like an argument. I had a similar conversation with ex T and she was sad also. I think she was sad for me that I had been so hurt that I thought that I couldn't trust her to be safe.

I don't think it's sad just being careful but she and I differed on that.

I think it's an important thing for her to hear to know how you feel and how much your trust is shaken. Don't be hard on yourself.

its coming up on the anniversary of me telling about my former Ts abuse. i was talking to my T one day about how i get afraid he is going to hurt me. he seemed a little hurt by that, but i clarified that im not afraid of him doing what former T did specifically. he said well thats good. i could tell it kinda threw him off for a minute. i think its natural and also wise to be aware of these things, i cant condone being totally naive about therapists and the therapy profession. as far as your T, i think she sounds like a good therapist. i dont necessarily see what happened between you and your T as an argument. i dont think she thinks 'ick' about you. i think what you said is perfectly fine to say and to make clear.

I'm confused. What is the argument about? Is she saying she is the only one who can set boundaries? Because I'm not getting that impression. Only that she's hurting for you.

Eta: are you maybe saying the things to her that you wish you'd had the chance to say to the abusive ones?

I agree with you, Pre. Both you and her get to set boundaries.

You are the boss in therapy and you can set whatever boundaries you please. To me, it is done, kaput end of story. No argument. Just a fact T has to accept.

I also agree with you. Everyone has a right to set their own boundaries with others. It's not just a therapeutic thing.

You guys are right, I think. It wasn't an argument. A lot of my past and current feelings are all mixed up...mixed together. My anger and fear..my dealings with Abusive Pdoc..and my dealings with T are all mixed together right this minute. Does that make sense? Probably like being triggered and PTSD....:

T and I were talking about boundaries: My adult understands/is satisfied that T will never say, "I love you" to me...But the little girl part is sad about that and her feelings are very hurt. I don't understand this...how I can be of two minds about it.

She responded to one of my emails and said this,

"I think it was a very good thing for you to do...set the boundary. I am responsible for that in our relationship but you are also responsible for yourself and have the right and obligation to yourself to set boundaries for yourself.

Nothing has changed from my point of view except that I heard you set a very important boundary for yourself and I am happy about that.

Yes, the child in you needs nurturing and love and understands those things from a different perspective than the adult in you. When we are children we need to hear I love you from significant people in our lives. Your child wants more of that because you didn't hear it or experience it in your life as a child nearly often enough.

I hope you are going to have a good day. Your feelings are natural. We are good...."

Her reply about the "child" made me cry because she is right about all of that. She is a good T.

The part I take exception to is the emboldened part. It's probably just a semantics issue....she seems to say she can set her boundaries for us..but I only set the boundary for myself. I think I can set boundaries for her, too!

If she was sitting in session throwing paper wads at me (using a silly example) I would probably ask her to stop. If she was trying to do something inappropriate to me, I would tell her to stop. Isn't that me...setting a boundary for her?

Maybe I will be thinking more clearly tomorrow.
She is a good T and I believe her when she says she will never intentionally hurt me. But I can not trust and just leave all that up to her. In the past, I have trusted therapists to make ethical decisions in our relationships...and those relationships hurt me very badly.

Thank you for reading this far.

Of course you get to set your own boundaries. I would never turn keeping mine over to a therapist

I think she's is saying she is responsible for the professional, ethical boundaries in the therapy relationship. That's an important part of her job. She's also saying that you are responsible for setting your own personal boundaries and taking care of yourself that way.

To me...this is you setting your boundaries. That you don't want paper thrown at you.

I think this is right - and that she may be thinking of past abusive therapeutic relationships when she says this. It is incumbent on the therapist to prevent abuse in the therapist-client relationship because it is their responsibility to do so. It's like in a parent-child relationship; the parent is ultimately responsible.

I see. Atat and lolgrace- you are probably right.

I'm having a lot of trouble with trust.
Maybe what's happening is past bad feelings (fear, confusion, anger) about two past damaging psychiatrists are mixing with current feelings/questions/uncertainty about T?

Trust is hard. I have only known T two years. I don't know her that well...to trust she won't do something that wouldn't be good for me.

I feel all mixed up.

I wrote PrevT and told her, "we will see tomorrow how well T tolerates mixed up me."

She wrote back:
"You are allowed to feel mixed up."

Which does help...to know being mixed up right now is understandable.

I would ask her to clarify what she meant by what you bolded. It's a little confusing and I'm sure she'd be glad to talk it over with you more. She seems reasonable. I am sorry you got hurt so badly before.

Puzzlebug,

Good idea. I will ask her to explain it.

I agree that you are setting a boundary for yourself in making your request to her.
With the paper throwing example, that's a boundary for yourself, - I will not tolerate having paper thrown at me.
I guess we cannot set boundaries for other adults, it's something someone does for themselves, and others respect that boundary or we don't have a relationship with them.
Sounds like your T really did hear you set that boundary, and it respectful both of your boundary, and you for setting it.

Thanks RedSun,

That makes sense.

I think I took it like SD mentioned...like I was turning over part of my boundaries to her.

I feel extra wary of T...which maybe doesn't make a lot of sense. She hasn't done anything wrong.

I am sorry you are hurting and struggling. I have a hard time with trust with my T and she also has not done anything wrong or anything for me to even question her trust. In fact lately she has done the opposite. She has shown me that she has my best interest at heart and is very trust worthy. Its just hard when other people break your trust and you fear it happening again. Learning to trust again is like learning to ride a bike and you keep falling off.

I think its very important to set your own boundaries in therapy. I have set some and I was never really able to. I have learned how to set my own boundaries because of therapy.

I wonder if your therapist's comment about her boundary responsibilities wasn't so much a denial of your right to set boundaries in the relationship so much as asserting that it's the therapist's duty to ensure yours are not violated--in other words, another way of acknowledging that the fault of what happened with previous abuser therapist lies with him, not you. If she were to say the responsibility of boundaries in your relationship is all on you, then that could lead to self-blame when a therapist does wrong. Not sure if that makes sense. I guess I see it as a supportive statement.

Great point, ruhroh.