[sunrise]

Do you ever share unrealistic "I wish..." statements with your T? How does he/she react? I shared such a statement with my T last session. For the last day I've been thinking about his response compared to the response my former counselor made when I shared such a statement with her..

My former counselor
Sunny: "I wish he would just never come home." (Said in reference to my husband about a year and a half ago when he was away on business. Things often seemed so much better when he was gone, and I thought life would be great if he just never came home. Then I wouldn't have to go through the pain of breaking up the marriage, etc.)
My former counselor (as if she were breaking some bad news to me): But that's not going to happen. He is coming home.

My current therapist
Sunny: I wish I could be divorced tomorrow! (Said last week in the heat of feeling I-am-so-effing-sick-of-this-divorce.)
Therapist (smiling): I bet you do. Or tonight!

The response from my former counselor was kind of a conversation stopper. Well, of course I knew my husband would really come home. Did she think I was living in la-la land? It really took us nowhere for her to say that my little heartfelt wish was unrealistic. I knew that. It made me feel like I had shared this silly thought with her and she had rejected it. Although the thought was silly, it reflected a very serious and authentic feeling. Her "rejection" of my comment contributed to making me feel I had to be completely serious and totally realistic with her all the time. This little interchange did nothing to advance our therapeutic alliance.

On the other hand, I loved my current therapist's response. He knew that I knew I could not possibly be divorced tomorrow, so he didn't say, "but you know that can't happen," or something similar. He took the somewhat whimsical wish in the spirit it was shared. He empathized with me, and took it one step further, which showed that he understand my desire to be free of my marriage at last. This drew us closer, since I knew he understood 100% my impatience and desire to move on.

I've been thinking about these 2 interchanges a lot. Is the difference in the responses because my former counselor was CBT and my current T is humanistic? Were they trained to respond the ways they did? Or was it just kind of instinctual, the ways they responded, having more to do with their personalities? And my therapist's personality and response just fit better my own personality and what I needed from a therapist at that moment?

[debbie_tabor]

I too wonder about the difference between the therapist I wanted to be my mother and the one I can't get a good emotional connection with. (Doesn't that connection feel so good when it happens).

Maybe some people are too practical - my current therapist is, and a training in CBT is probably going to make you respond practically too. All it takes is a bit of understanding and sounding like they care and I'm like a little puppy dog - devoted for life!

I do also wonder about the personality thing and whether my maternal therapist did nothing for other people and vice versa. Or whether it's the difference between good and bad therapists - the instinct for saying the right thing at the right time.

OK, I think I just repeated all your questions. Anyone else?!

[Lemon]

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sunrise said:

My current therapist
Sunny: I wish I could be divorced tomorrow! (Said last week in the heat of feeling I-am-so-effing-sick-of-this-divorce.)
Therapist (smiling): I bet you do. Or tonight!

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I know this isn't the main point of your post, but I SOOO know how you feel. In fact, you'll see that I just said something similar if you read my post in the 3 wishes thread. There is so much practical work that has to be done in a divorce. One needs to be logical and clear headed to do it all correctly. I just want it to be over too!

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sunrise said:The response from my former counselor was kind of a conversation stopper. Well, of course I knew my husband would really come home. Did she think I was living in la-la land? It really took us nowhere for her to say that my little heartfelt wish was unrealistic.

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I think I've mostly held off from sharing those little comments to my T because I'm afraid of getting a response like your first T. When I am talking to myself I think I my self-talk gives those unhelpful responses to myself. But, your post made me remember a little comment I made to T last week and her response made me smile even though the whole conversation was sort of offhand as we were wrapping up. I was telling her that I had to go back to work the next day after being on vacation Monday &amp; Tuesday.

Lemon: At least tomorrow is Wednesday...only 3 more days until the weekend.
T: hmm (nods)
Lemon: but then 5 days (referring to having to work a full week of work next week)
T (gently): but there is two days in between

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sunrise said:Her "rejection" of my comment contributed to making me feel I had to be completely serious and totally realistic with her all the time. This little interchange did nothing to advance our therapeutic alliance.

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You're right. It was the kind of unhelpful comment that doesn't really move the conversation anywhere and doesn't provide any comfort.

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He took the somewhat whimsical wish in the spirit it was shared. .

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Yes....you have a great T. This has made me think about how, T's don't always have to have deep, thoughtout responses to everything we say. It is nice to hear them just agree with us sometimes and acknowledge how we feel.

Sorry don't know the answer to your final questions, but they are interesting ones. I guess if you notice similar differences between the T's you've worked with it could point to a difference in training or philosphy. I also think that it can just be T's personality or where they are at the moment.

Hang in there....this divorce stuff has to be done some day right?!?

Yeah, I know what you are saying. I used to have that with feeling reports, too. I'd say that I felt mad or scared or whatever and my old (CBT therapists) would launch into ways to challenge those beliefs that resulted in the feelings. My current therapist (not CBT) doesn't do that, however, instead he says something to show that he empathises with my feeling.

Is part of it the CBT / not CBT orientation? Perhaps. I think that certain people (people who are very 'rationally' oriented and very 'action' oriented) tend to be drawn to CBT and that certain people (people who are more 'feeling' oriented and / or interested in complexities of interpretation) tend to be drawn to other varieties. I do think that it is possible for a good therapist to 'transcend' the limitations of the theory (and all theories are limited to a certain extent) but I do think that it takes a special kind of person to do that. But then... I think that it takes a special kind of person to be a good therapist for clients with complex issues, I guess.

[pachyderm]

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sunrise said:
Do you ever share unrealistic "I wish..." statements with your T? How does he/she react? I shared such a statement with my T last session. For the last day I've been thinking about his response compared to the response my former counselor made when I shared such a statement with her..

My former counselor
Sunny: "I wish he would just never come home." (Said in reference to my husband about a year and a half ago when he was away on business. Things often seemed so much better when he was gone, and I thought life would be great if he just never came home. Then I wouldn't have to go through the pain of breaking up the marriage, etc.)
My former counselor (as if she were breaking some bad news to me): But that's not going to happen. He is coming home.

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I react to that as a needed and welcomed dose of reality-thinking. Not a judgement on you, but just reality.

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My current therapist
Sunny: I wish I could be divorced tomorrow! (Said last week in the heat of feeling I-am-so-effing-sick-of-this-divorce.)
Therapist (smiling): I bet you do. Or tonight!

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

That would set off alarms for me -- that my therapist was saying something she thought would please me, so I would like her more. Or something that was more playing to her needs than to mine.

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I've been thinking about these 2 interchanges a lot. Is the difference in the responses because my former counselor was CBT and my current T is humanistic? Were they trained to respond the ways they did? Or was it just kind of instinctual, the ways they responded, having more to do with their personalities? And my therapist's personality and response just fit better my own personality and what I needed from a therapist at that moment?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

My reaction would be that your last statement is true. That your second therapist's reaction more closely fit your felt needs at the time than your first one's.

> I react to that as a needed and welcomed dose of reality-thinking. Not a judgement on you, but just reality.

I guess...
It strikes me as a judgement because the therapist seems to be thinking that you need to reality test when you are painfully aware of the reality of the situation.
It seems to me that what was needed...
Was some acknowledgement of your WISH or an acknowledgement of your DESIRE. Not some statement of whether your wish or desire was realistic or unrealistic. Not some statement of whether your wish or desire was likely to be fulfilled or not fulfilled. Just some acknowledgement that you did indeed wish or desire that and that wishing or desiring it was understandable. Not something to be ashamed or embarrassed about. Understandable.

> That would set off alarms for me -- that my therapist was saying something she thought would please me, so I would like her more. Or something that was more playing to her needs than to mine.

Really?

I guess... That if you felt that your mother manipulated you so that she could get her needs met... Then you would be suspicious of someone doing something that seems to be in accordance with YOUR emotional needs...

[sunrise]

Thanks, debbie tabor, Lemon, alexandra_k, and pachyderm for your responses.

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Lemon said:
There is so much practical work that has to be done in a divorce.

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Yep, it can be frustrating as sometimes I want to go to therapy and do non-practical stuff, like share a dream or something, but there are so many nuts and bolts to be taken care of, that we pretty much just have to deal with that. (((hugs))) for you and what you are going through right now. I liked the little interchange about the days of the week that you shared. Even in those little moments, one can find therapy.

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alexandra_k said:
I'd say that I felt mad or scared or whatever and my old (CBT therapists) would launch into ways to challenge those beliefs that resulted in the feelings.

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I can see that would be very offputting, like the therapist was trying to convince you not to be scared or sad? Doesn't sound very therapeutic. I'm glad you have a more empathetic T now, alex.

[sunrise]

Thanks, debbie tabor, Lemon, alexandra_k, and pachderm for your responses.

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pachyderm said:
I react to that as a needed and welcomed dose of reality-thinking. Not a judgement on you, but just reality.

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Hmm, interesting interpretation. I am totally reality grounded so if my counselor thought I needed that, I guess she didn't really know me. Probably, she just said what came to the top of her head. I found out later much of her business was acupuncture, so maybe she didn't really have much experience with talk therapy. Eventually I did quit going to see her as I had reached the limits of her skill set.

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pachyderm said:
That would set off alarms for me -- that my therapist was saying something she thought would please me, so I would like her more. Or something that was more playing to her needs than to mine.

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From "I bet you do. Or tonight!", you got that my T was playing to his needs and not mine? To me it felt like he provided empathy and understanding, not like he was trying to jump through hoops to please me. I've never had the feeling my T was doing stuff to try to please me. Do you think your T does that to you? My T can be quite attuned to my needs, though, and on occasion has even asked me what I needed and wanted to get out of therapy (but not what I wanted him to do to please me). I think if we tell them our needs, they can provide better therapy. I still need practice at this, though.

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pachyderm said:
My reaction would be that your last statement is true. That your second therapist's reaction more closely fit your felt needs at the time than your first one's.

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I think part of my problem is I am not always aware of what I need, so unfortunately, in the first interchange, I couldn't give the counselor much guidance. Plus it was a small moment, and we quickly moved on.

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alexandra_k said:
It strikes me as a judgement because the therapist seems to be thinking that you need to reality test when you are painfully aware of the reality of the situation. It seems to me that what was needed... Was some acknowledgement of your WISH or an acknowledgement of your DESIRE. Not some statement of whether your wish or desire was realistic or unrealistic. Not some statement of whether your wish or desire was likely to be fulfilled or not fulfilled. Just some acknowledgement that you did indeed wish or desire that and that wishing or desiring it was understandable. Not something to be ashamed or embarrassed about. Understandable.

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Yep, you got it alexandra_k!

[MissCharlotte]

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Do you ever share unrealistic "I wish..." statements with your T?

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Sunrise,
Yes, T and I both do this, and refer to it as "fantasy." For example I may say "I have this fantasy that....." and he may do the same. I get a lot out of this kind of exchange, I think because it sort of makes me once removed from the subject and therefore, from any perceived criticism that may follow. Sometimes the follow up is not exactly criticism but more information that sort of makes your fantasy un-doable. Does this make sense to you?

I love how your T responds now but I'm not sure you former T was necessarily criticizing just misdirected in her coments. Maybe she was trying to get you to take some action on your own behalf with respect to the divorce. She should have given you validation first! I think of it like my T helping me to accept my son's illness. Unfortunately, her delivery was dreadful. Clearly your current T is a better match for you. (Especially if she's now into acupuncture.)

I do think it's important for us to remember that T's are human and that it is impossible for them to ALWAYS say what we want them to; of course, I am the first to let him know when he doesn't.

I also think that the "In the moment" aspect of therapy is the most enlivenng and responsive and has the most potential for a deep connection. When our T's are really with us "in the moment" then they will be able to respond to us appropriately and it will feel so connected.



2 weeks, 1 day till my next appointment with T.
1 week, 4 days till I can call him

[sunrise]

Thanks for your interesting comments, sister. I like how you two share your fantasies.

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sister said:
I do think it's important for us to remember that T's are human and that it is impossible for them to ALWAYS say what we want them to; of course, I am the first to let him know when he doesn't.

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I didn't perceive her as criticizing me at the time, and I was a very undemanding client (never expected her to be perfect when I was seeing her). And I had no agenda in mind that I was aware of that I wanted her to say a specific thing. What is so very pathetic about me is it is only now, a year and a half later, that I am realizing that this comment of hers (and others) didn't work for me. At the time, it was just another dead end in conversation--we certainly had many. I guess I can be so removed from my own negative feelings, that I don't even realize I have them at the time. sister, I greatly admire you for knowing what you feel right in the session with your T so that you can tell him then and there. I think I am getting better at that (I think I have improved on that year and a half lag ). Were you always so aware of what you were feeling immediately in session that you could just tell your T? Or is that something you came to be able to know and do after being in therapy for a while? I need to learn to be more self aware of my inner feelings, to know them as they happen. I think part of it for me is that now that I am with this T who is so attuned to me, it can make me realize from time to time how unattuned the previous counselor was. Only in comparison do I understand... Does that make sense?

She has been on my mind--the previous counselor. I dreamt about her 2 nights ago. I tried calling her a few months ago (for a referral), but she never returned my call.

Hang in there, sister, with your T's absence.

[MissCharlotte]

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Were you always so aware of what you were feeling immediately in session that you could just tell your T?

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Ha! Would that I were!!!

Sunny,
I have only just begun to be able to respond in the moment and it is exhilirating when I can. However, I cannot always do it, and often I think of things afterward that are important for me to say. Sometimes they can wait and sometimes they can't so I call T. I asked him if I call too much and he said that considering the kind of childhood I had, no.

Responding in the moment requires intense concentration, not something I am terribly adept at, but it is good for me to try. It means letting go of fears and trusting T. It also means letting go of inhibitions and preconceived ideas about how things should go and sometimes any agenda you come in with about what you wish to accomplish because other emotions that pop up present themselves to be worked on.

I have also been trained as responding in the moment to my students, so it's a concept that has been presented to me on many levels this year.

I say go for it, and see where it takes you! Maybe you are realizing how little your previous T was able to give you because your now T gives you so much! I know I have had a similar reaction. I can't believe I was in therapy for over 3 years because there is zero comparison between the two relationships.

Cheers,
Sister

2 weeks, 1 day till my next appointment with T
1 week 4 days till I can call him

[sunrise]

sister, thanks for your insightful thoughts. That is wonderful your T lets you call him to respond "after the moment."

To me there are two parts to responding in the moment: 1) knowing what you are feeling and 2) telling your T what you are feeling. I have gotten pretty good at the telling/responding part, but I am often terrible at the knowing what I am feeling part! I need to be more self aware, to listen to myself. This problem with not knowing what I am feeling comes from childhood when I had to hide all my emotions or risk really painful repercussions if I let anything out. My T has said he has never seen anyone so self contained. He is very perceptive, though, and there have been times he can tell what I am feeling when I cannot. Like one time in couples therapy, my husband said this really, really hurtful thing to me, and I was not even aware of it. It did not hurt or bother me at all. I heard his words, but they just flowed over me like water, with nary a ripple. But I started crying for some unknown reason. My T said, "sunny, what triggered you, why are you crying?" I said, "I don't know." "Was it because your husband just said X and you felt hurt by that?" "No, that was fine. I don't know why I'm crying." T said that moment to him was like a snapshot of my marriage--all the many hurtful things slung my way and my just not even feeling them anymore, as a defense, borrowed from my childhood. (He has suggested I chose this marriage in an attempt to recreate my childhood pain and finally conquer it.)

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Maybe you are realizing how little your previous T was able to give you because your now T gives you so much! I can't believe I was in therapy for over 3 years because there is zero comparison between the two relationships.

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That's how it is for me too. My experience with the previous counselor was not really therapy, I know now. I think that's why I call her a counselor instead of a therapist. Even though she put down "Psychotherapy for X" on my insurance claim, she didn't seem to be providing psychotherapy to me.

[Hopefull]

My first T had the annoying habit of probing into areas where she was not yet welcome. Then her responses were just blunt. I cried all of the place talking about the guilt that I felt about my great aunt's death and she says, "You shouldn't feel that way." It was like a slap in the face or a way to encourage me to slap the guilt feelings back into denial. She said something like "You should feel that way." on a few occasions. I knew that she was experienced (over 30 years) and knew how to analyze a person's thinking but she couldn't seem to empathize with me much. I though I could find a way to work with her until she left the office and I switched to my current T. My current T has a more gentle therapy approach. She does CBT but she gives me that when I signal her that I want her suggested on how to re-think something. She knows when to offer a re-think suggestion and when to just listen and empasize with me. I suspect that this is one of the hardest things to do. CBT focuses on the re-thinking and so I suspect that an inexperienced T who is trained in CBT might make a re-think suggestion without trying to see if simply empathizing is what is needed. I sometimes find myself struggling to know what to say when I pretend to counsel someone (studying AODA counseling). My T has admitted that she doesn't always know what to say but this tends to happen when I want to take over session and she thinks that she needs to ask me stuff to get me to talk. All she really needs to do is tell me to start talking her ear off--trust me I have an agenda.
I'm glad that you have a T that you can really work with now. A T that matches you well is a real treasure!