A week ago I had a couple of triggering moments with men I came into contact through work.

I was telling T and I was definitely in that "burning house" place, and T said when I was talking about how I didn't fight back as a child when I was being abused and that just by simply by replying to these men they will know that! "

T then said" but you're not in that situation now"

In that moment of her saying that, I felt like she was denying my experience in the moment, but I also felt "that's true"

That statement by T has been playing over and over in my mind. It's like an arm is reaching down deep inside of me and trying to pull me into the present. Unyet I hear it as a scream of anger.
I haven't told T how I felt about her saying that. Or how I've interpreted on 2 levels.

Maybe the anger is my own anger at myself.
I'll try and tell T today about it.

[Rainstoppedplay]

T then said" but you're not in that situation now"
She shouldn't have said that, it is invalidating.
In a way after years of abuse you are always 'in that situation' as those traumatic events live in your head, in your memories, and are written on your neural pathways (remain on your motherboard) nothing is ever truly forgotten.
I have chosen to 'forget' my mother and most of my childhood. I know its all there behind a wall, hidden, held in check. Managed.
Its about managing and controlling. For me its like treading water actively keeping in the present (mindfulness helps with this) and not slipping backwards. EMDR in my opinion works well, separating emotion from memory and is much better than endless 'therapy'
SSRIs help me keep memories manageable suppose they have for me a numbing effect.
Most of the time I am in control, only having an occasional melt down.
She probably said that trying to be helpful or comforting but its not.

Rainstopoedplay, I hear what you're saying.
I will bring up today and decide whether it was invalidating. Of course I've experienced this before. Felt invalidated and then talked about it and saw it differently.
I don't consider "endless therapy" a bad thing. I actually get a lot from it. Like this situation. I get all caught up in emotions but then get a growing experience from talking about something that feels difficult.
Sometimes it's these exact situations where the healing can be found. T "gets it wrong" but we get to work together with it and grow from it. I had very little of that growing. Up.

[ECHOES]

I think that some things are hard to hear in therapy. I understand that conflict when something is felt on multiple levels. When something similar happens with me, I feel frustrated and angry because I feel unheard, and I might feel that my experience is being diminished. It's so important to me to first, feel heard. My problem is that I allow the negative interpretation to have more importance. It's a way of continuing to criticise myself. It's probably a way of hanging on to what I know, because moving toward an idea that is unknown and unfamiliar feels unnatural and dangerous.

Anyway, that is my resistance, and even knowing it one minute I can forget it the next. So, then I start again, resenting my resistance. Anything to keep myself from being present and moving toward something that want to move toward. I told my T that I need her to be the resistance to my resistance.

Honor the anger, but don't let it get behind the wheel and drive. lol.

Thanks Echoes.
I left session early just now. Something is going on, but right now I can't face it.
I told T how what she said felt, and she said "that must be hard to hear" . What?!?!?!

I know when I'm in something because I go silent. I want T to find me. I told her I feel she's burnt out. Not taking me seriously.
T said (as I knew she would, because I know somethings going on) this is the work. This feeling you want more from me, feeling unheard.
I knew I could overlay (dreaded transference) my relationship with my mother into all what is going on.
But I did look at T and say. But it's you that said those words, it's with you I felt invalidated.
. With that I told her being worth her is to painful right now. I need to leave. I did.

But, I could have spoke those words to my mother many years ago. Sigh.

But right now..... It's anger and hurt.

My therapist fairly regularly reminded me that I wasn't in that place/situation now. I understand the initial reaction of that feeling invalidating, but I came to realize those words were actually empowering. They were a reminder that, yes, I was there once, but I'm not there anymore. In fact, I would never be in that situation now as an adult because I have the wherewithal and drive and strength to protect myself in healthy and independent ways. I'm not that same person now that I was then. Reminders of that growth and distance from my past have become part of the skill that I am able to use now on my own so that as Echoes so wonderfully stated, I can honor my anger but I "don't let it get behind the wheel and drive." (Love that, Echoes.)

Yes I get the empowering angle. But one has to feel understood too.

T asked do I know what it is I want from her. I do, but I won't say. When I email with her, I get words. In session, not so many words.
Maybe I won't go Monday, maybe I'll email instead. Get words. She puts more of herself into email.

[thesnowqueen]

I've had the same experience and felt the same ambivalence. T told me I easily get sucked into the past - and thus into past emotional states. He would often say that was then, this is now. And I would also feel like yes, but me-back-then wants recognition and care... At the same time, if he HAD given me that response I may have continued to be consumed by the past. At least one other T I have had (who had a more depth therapy approach) would spend more time on memories, associations and working the past out. This actually left me feeling disorganized and a bit incoherent. However, there were other issues in that therapy - lack of boundaries, etc, that made it problematic.

[thesnowqueen]

Originally Posted by _Mouse

T asked do I know what it is I want from her. I do, but I won't say. When I email with her, I get words. In session, not so many words.
Maybe I won't go Monday, maybe I'll email instead. Get words. She puts more of herself into email.

Sounds like she is coming across as a bit unavailable in person - almost withholding?

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

Sounds like she is coming across as a bit unavailable in person - almost withholding?

Yes! But, I'm aware that this could all be part of "being in it"

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

I've had the same experience and felt the same ambivalence. T told me I easily get sucked into the past - and thus into past emotional states. He would often say that was then, this is now. And I would also feel like yes, but me-back-then wants recognition and care... At the same time, if he HAD given me that response I may have continued to be consumed by the past. At least one other T I have had (who had a more depth therapy approach) would spend more time on memories, associations and working the past out. This actually left me feeling disorganized and a bit incoherent. However, there were other issues in that therapy - lack of boundaries, etc, that made it problematic.

Thanks snowqueen

[thesnowqueen]

Can you explain more about 'being in it'? Also - I'm not sure I understand her response that 'feeling like you want more from her' is somehow part of the process. If you were subject to that unavailability as a child surely re-experiencing it will not be healing? Is this really you projecting a past figure into her or is she just emotionally limited and you are picking that up?

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

Can you explain more about 'being in it'? Also - I'm not sure I understand her response that 'feeling like you want more from her' is somehow part of the process. If you were subject to that unavailability as a child surely re-experiencing it will not be healing? Is this really you projecting a past figure into her or is she just emotionally limited and you are picking that up?

When I'm in it, I'm reexperiencing my painful past.
The thing is, I know T is a caring person - no I'm not a victim of Stockholm syndrome with her - but there are times, when I guess I'm in crisis, I need her more.
In a email exchange not so long ago about a self harm thing I do, T admitted in email, that she finds it upsetting and probably pushes her feelings away around it, and I feel, she toys to avoid it.
But, I also understand the concept of "the work" .
I've been here before and know the process how it works, we come out of it together.

I mean when I told T how I felt about her saying what she did. Her response "that must be hard to hear" was like pushing the knife in a bit more.
I. Told her it was like telling someone with depression to come out of it, click click. Just like that.
But she did keep saying "things do go wrong" .

[thesnowqueen]

It sounds like you have a lot of confidence in her and in the process! I hope you (and all of us) find some way of satisfying past needs while still moving forward in the present.

[pachyderm]

I was told once by my therapist that what I was reacting to was "all in the past" and "I did not need to do that any more". I realized it was true and it was very, very liberating. But it was said at just the right time for me. Said at other times it might have come across as insensitive, or dismissive, or reacting to something the T did not want to hear.

So timing is very important -- knowing exactly what is going on and when to say what. I think in my case his response was a bit accidental, and at other times he responded much less accurately to what I was prepared to grasp.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I was told once by my therapist that what I was reacting to was "all in the past" and "I did not need to do that any more". I realized it was true and it was very, very liberating. But it was said at just the right time for me. Said at other times it might have come across as insensitive, or dismissive, or reacting to something the T did not want to hear.

So timing is very important -- knowing exactly what is going on and when to say what. I think in my case his response was a bit accidental, and at other times he responded much less accurately to what I was prepared to grasp.

Yes! This exactly.

[Moment]

I just wanted to say I am right there with you friend, and have had almost the exact same experience, when a therapist said, "But this person (in the here and now) is not that person (from the past)."

And while an angry voice inside me said "no, actually, he is the same person, he is acting exactly the same," another inner voice said, "well, OK. that is true. Hm." And instead of focusing on similarities, I started looking for differences. And that was helpful.

I would say that in the moment I very much rejected what was said by my therapist. But it got me thinking in a helpful way.

I've sent T an Email. Had a right go at her.

[pachyderm]

The thing is, even if the T gets it wrong, if he or she is able to think clearly about it, it is something that can be discussed. My T could not do that. He could not admit he could make a mistake. And I did not have enough confidence in myself to stick with it (though I tried for months).

T replied....

Dear mouse

Thank you for sending these. It's ok to have sent them and to say the things you've said.

I'm out this evening and I won't be back until late. I'll reply to you tomorrow. I hope that's ok.

Love,

*****

T's reply. Not sure how I feel about it.

Dear mouse

Sorry I couldn't reply yesterday.

It's important that this stuff is coming out, and I think it is definitely part of the work that we need to be doing. It's useful for me too when you write it down because it makes it much easier for me to see what's happening, and to talk about it in a way that hopefully will be useful for you. I'm sorry that I can't always do that in the session.

There is something quite fundamental here about how attuned you experience me as being to you at any given moment. You often experience a mismatch, and this is your early experience with your mother: that she wasn't attuned, and wasn't able to properly attend to or validate your needs and feelings. When it goes wrong between us, you feel devastated and lost. You feel that I've abandoned you and that I don't care and don't understand you.

Something else happens too. You have a lot of bad experiences in your life, but you do have some good ones - even sometimes in relation to your mother. It's hard for you to hold onto both at the same time. Maybe that's because as soon as you have any positive feelings towards your mother, it's as if you lose yourself. So when I refer to the good stuff, it's not because that's what I want to hear from you, but because I want to help you to remember both and to hold onto both, without having to lose yourself - or lose me as a helpful presence. Sometimes I do that the other way round - when you are talking about the good things, I might remind you of the bad experiences. I think that because there were more bad experiences than good ones, it's easier for you when it's that way round, although it may still be that then you feel I'm ignoring the good.

These are different emotional states. It goes wrong when I assume that you are able to hear the contradictions, when in fact they are unbearable. It is difficult for me to know sometimes which state you are in. I'm sorry that I can't always tell. I could try to protect you from these moments by never holding up the opposite experience for you, but I think that would be possibly more destructive in the long term. You do need to hold both in order to have a more secure sense of yourself and sometimes you can.

When it "goes wrong" between us, I think I become your mother for you. It's as if I become persecutory, whatever I say. It becomes difficult for you to hold onto anything positive between us. But it does seem that even though you really struggle with it all, you are more able (than you used to be) to hold onto the possibility of there being another way of thinking about what's going on. When you say, "it's making me feel wrong to be in these states with you", I think perhaps that's what you mean, that you are aware of the two things. I know how difficult it is to hold onto that, and to be in that, but that does also seem hopeful, that you might be able to have both good and bad together, and make connections between them that can help you.

Love,
*******

[pachyderm]

You have a keeper as a T. But you know that.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

You have a keeper as a T. But you know that.

I know.......