[CantExplain]

One of the things that prompted me to leave Madame T, was the realisation that I was managing her. By this I mean that I had to be careful what I said to avoid triggering a negative reaction. "Walking on eggshells." She could be angry and defensive.

I felt that one shouldn't have to manage ones own therapist. But perhaps I was naive or unreasonable.


Do you feel you have to manage your therapist? Is that a normal part of the T relationship, or is it a sign that something is seriously wrong?

[Echos Myron redux]

There's two parts to the situation you describe I think. The first part is the therapist's stuff being present in the room and the second part is the client taking responsibility for managing that stuff for them. Whether that be trying to avoid triggering them or whatever else.

My T's stuff sometimes comes up (as you know) but I don't take responsibility for managing that for him. In fact he very explicitly says he doesn't want me to take care of it for him. That's the source of my impatience with him at the moment- I feel he needs to manage it better himself, because it's not my responsibility to censor myself for his benefit.

To answer your question, it's not necessary to take care of your T, and for me, it would be a sign that something was seriously wrong if the therapist were to encourage or accept the client's efforts to manage the therapist's material. The therapist should be managing that themselves in supervision.

So the desire to manage T's stuff is normal in my view, it's the therapist's actions that can be problematic.

[amicus_curiae]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

One of the things that prompted me to leave Madame T, was the realisation that I was managing her. By this I mean that I had to be careful what I said to avoid triggering a negative reaction. "Walking on eggshells." She could be angry and defensive.

I felt that one shouldn't have to manage ones own therapist. But perhaps I was naive or unreasonable.

Do you feel you have to manage your therapist? Is that a normal part of the T relationship, or is it a sign that something is seriously wrong?

Interesting question.

I wouldn’t say manage, but I have nudged from time-to-time and have grown angry if s/he didn’t take the hint. I’m just not an eggshell-walker, I guess. Having a therapist respond in anger is just unacceptable. I feel as if I need to be able to say anything to my therapist without her becoming defensive.

I’m coming down on the ‘seriously wrong’ side.

[Anne2.0]

I would say if you look at the content of the managing, or if you look at what preceded this need to manage, you might find some important clues.

I have also found for myself that looking more deeply into what I say the other is doing, it can be that it might be I who is prompting the behavior.

From my memory about your earlier posts, I got the impression (and could totally be wrong) that you were the angry and defensive one, because Madame T would not give you the validation you required.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I would say if you look at the content of the managing, or if you look at what preceded this need to manage, you might find some important clues.

I have also found for myself that looking more deeply into what I say the other is doing, it can be that it might be I who is prompting the behavior.

From my memory about your earlier posts, I got the impression (and could totally be wrong) that you were the angry and defensive one, because Madame T would not give you the validation you required.

I think we were both angry and defensive. And we both responded by disengaging. And here we are...

[stopdog]

The woman was total crap at most things. I finally just quit trying to deal with her in those areas and saw the other woman who was less crappy at some of the things the first one was totally crap at. The first one was not so much angry - although she could be defensive ("well, my other clients love me" sort of thing). I got tired of trying to get her to understand what I was talking about or trying to decipher what she was saying. So I stopped trying and used her for my sick/dying/dead person - even a therapist could not screw that up and all I really required was for her to sit there and let me vent and for the therapist to stay back.

My therapist scoffed at/dismissed too many very basic things at the beginning, and it set a tone for the rest of my time with her. By the time I was able to bring those feelings up, and she was trying to fix the effects of her words, it was too late. There are a hundred things I don't feel comfortable talking to her about because she's a judgmental person who speaks without thinking.
She claims to be the "least judgmental person you'll ever meet in your entire life" (direct quote), but she says her inability to think before speaking has gotten her in trouble many times in her real life. I believe it. But her words in a real life context would not have hurt me as much as they did in the timed, impersonal context of therapy.

[peacelizard]

You don't really give a lot of info — like examples — so it's tough to go on, but I would say it's likely a pretty big red flag. You shouldn't be "walking on eggshells" ever in a relationship, let alone with your therapist. Therapy should be a safe place where you can talk about anything without fear. If you have to censor yourself as you say because your therapist might get angry or upset with you, that's not a good environment. Yes, therapists are real people with real feelings, but a lot of it should never even enter into therapy. It sounds like a lot of countertransference on your therapist's end for whatever reason. Unfortunately nothing you can really do about that. They have to deal with their own baggage, not you.

[Lemoncake]

I grew up in an environment where I had to watch everything I said or did because anything could be a trigger. I don't think it's a clients role to have to manage a T. All of that just triggered feelings of not being safe.

[88Butterfly88]

I feel it should be the t's job to manage the client and not the other way around. There are a few things I feel I cannot tell t though, I fear she'd flip out. Though recently I shared one of the things I thought I couldn't share and it went fine, I was pleasantly surprised.

Thats how it was aith my first therapist. I felt I had to be careful with her all the time or she would get angry or leave me or not trust me. I did everything she said. I was afraid of doing something wrong all the time.
In the end, she left me anyway, and I still dont know why.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by peacelizard

You don't really give a lot of info — like examples — so it's tough to go on, but I would say it's likely a pretty big red flag. You shouldn't be "walking on eggshells" ever in a relationship, let alone with your therapist. Therapy should be a safe place where you can talk about anything without fear. If you have to censor yourself as you say because your therapist might get angry or upset with you, that's not a good environment. Yes, therapists are real people with real feelings, but a lot of it should never even enter into therapy. It sounds like a lot of countertransference on your therapist's end for whatever reason. Unfortunately nothing you can really do about that. They have to deal with their own baggage, not you.

I had a long list of complaints against her. I wasn't scared to bring them up, but I could see that she wasn't going to change or even apologise. She didn't even validate my feelings about them. So I decided there was no point in raising them again. In fact, I had to tiptoe around them.

[RaineD]

I wouldn't say I manage my therapist. But I know what behavior makes him angry, and these days I mostly try to avoid making him mad. There was a time when I'd purposefully make him mad, start fights, etc. I'm over that phase now.

I know some people here don't think that therapists should ever get mad at or yell at their clients, but one of my favorite things about my T is that he's a real person. That means he gets mad at me sometimes and yells at me.

Mostly what makes him mad is me refusing to do things he wants me to do--like take charge of the session, point out my own defenses, not use the same defense 100 times. It's a lot like being in school. If you know your teacher will be mad if you refuse to do your math homework so you avoid making them mad by doing your homework, are you managing them? Probably not, right?

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

One of the things that prompted me to leave Madame T, was the realisation that I was managing her. By this I mean that I had to be careful what I said to avoid triggering a negative reaction. "Walking on eggshells." She could be angry and defensive.

I felt that one shouldn't have to manage ones own therapist. But perhaps I was naive or unreasonable.


Do you feel you have to manage your therapist? Is that a normal part of the T relationship, or is it a sign that something is seriously wrong?

To me this is a sign that something is seriously wrong. I never "managed" any of my Ts and the moment I felt I had to do it was the moment when it was clear to me that it was time to find a new T. I was in therapy for myself and I needed to feel safe to say whatever the heck I wanted. I wouldn't settle for any "management" of T.

[amicus_curiae]

Excellent responses!

Ididitmyway expressed what I should have written, so I’ll only say:

No therapist — no good therapist — should respond in anger to anything that a client shares. That is unacceptable behavior and immoral. A therapist should be a guide and not a judge. Attempts to ‘manage’ a client with fear is evil and narcissistic and should not be tolerated.

As a guide a therapist need not validate — find true and right — the client’s feelings: We are in that chamber because, face it, our feelings and thoughts and motivations and behaviors are screwed up. The therapist should absolutely respect that we feel as we say we feel and s/he should objectively respond. I realize that therapists are human and that they have feelings but as professionals they need be in control of their emotions.

Therapists should be the good priest in the confessional and offer solace and kind penance when hearing our sins.

Good therapy isn’t a debate.

[weaverbeaver]

I can really relate to this at the moment and for a long time with my t.
There are certain subjects I know to stay away from that will trigger her and other subjects that she will always take like a dog with a bone.

I also know not to talk about relationships for a while because hers is a very sensitive subject right now and she will get upset.

I kinda feel a bit hopeless in therapy at the moment and am weighing up the pros and cons. So far there are way more cons. I really want to leave but I am also very attached!

[amicus_curiae]

Originally Posted by weaverbeaver

I can really relate to this at the moment and for a long time with my t.
There are certain subjects I know to stay away from that will trigger her and other subjects that she will always take like a dog with a bone.

I also know not to talk about relationships for a while because hers is a very sensitive subject right now and she will get upset.

I kinda feel a bit hopeless in therapy at the moment and am weighing up the pros and cons. So far there are way more cons. I really want to leave but I am also very attached!

Oh, man!!!

It’s [i]TALK THERAPY[/i not NOT TALK THERAPY!!!

Speaking for myself, in my 35+ years of therapy if I had felt that I couldn’t talk of anything/everything I would be more screwed up than I am now. Maybe others just function better — maybe it’s me.

This is an amendment to my replies to the OP, weaver, I don’t mean to call you out specifically — just responded with ire.

Sorry.

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

One of the things that prompted me to leave Madame T, was the realisation that I was managing her. By this I mean that I had to be careful what I said to avoid triggering a negative reaction. "Walking on eggshells." She could be angry and defensive.

Do you feel you have to manage your therapist? Is that a normal part of the T relationship, or is it a sign that something is seriously wrong?

i can relate to this. there were many times that i had to request that my ex-T put on his 'T hat' for fear that if he did not have his 'professional attire' on, that he would take what i was saying personally and to heart. he even thanked me a couple of times for reminding him to put his hat on! as far as i'm concerned, this should never have been my role in the relationship or in therapy.

on a side note, what does it mean if your T tells you (the client) they feel like they are 'walking on egg shells' and are afraid of doing or saying something that would upset you?? ex-T said this to me quite a few times, and every time it was very disheartening to hear because it clearly showed that he was too fearful to 'push me' in therapy and it felt like he did not trust me and my own process. this definilty was about him and his insecurities, but at the same time, him pointing out his insecurities felt both blaming and manipulating towards me and always left me feeling disappointed and frustrated.

[elisewin]

I am too busy managing myself, I don't want to try to manage my T on top of that . I try to leave T's stuff to her and I don't try to do anything or be anyone else than I am because of the possible reaction from her. But it has come from trust. She has showed she can take anything I say or show.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

on a side note, what does it mean if your T tells you (the client) they feel like they are 'walking on egg shells' and are afraid of doing or saying something that would upset you?? ex-T said this to me quite a few times, and every time it was very disheartening to hear because it clearly showed that he was too fearful to 'push me' in therapy and it felt like he did not trust me and my own process. this definilty was about him and his insecurities, but at the same time, him pointing out his insecurities felt both blaming and manipulating towards me and always left me feeling disappointed and frustrated.

That's different. To take a concrete example, suppose T thinks you were abused as a child, but you don't want to talk about that. T respects your wishes, but keeps hearing things that lead back to the forbidden topic. Neither of you is doing anything wrong. Nevertheless, T has to hold back, and indeed, walk on eggshells.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

I had a long list of complaints against her. I wasn't scared to bring them up, but I could see that she wasn't going to change or even apologise. She didn't even validate my feelings about them. So I decided there was no point in raising them again. In fact, I had to tiptoe around them.

It strikes me that in real life, it is very difficult to change anyone else and is, in my experience, extremely frustrating to try to do so, especially an intimate partner. My thing has been to work more vigorously on accepting people for who they are and not requiring them to say or do things that benefit me. I think this is different than asking a partner to meet your needs in a different way but to make such a request may come with the possibility that s/he won't give you what you want, and that is okay.

Have you explored in therapy why it is so important to you that Madame T change for you, or why you needed an apology for who she is and how she does the T thing with you? Because I don't understand how it would help anyone in therapy for the therapist to change unless somehow this helps the client to change.

I don't think that the purpose of therapy is to change the therapist or to get an apology from them about the way they do things. This seems like going to the grocery store and trying to bargain the total price with the cashier (at least in the U.S., I have been in countries where the culture is to bargain over everything).

Some therapists may change how they do things-- mine has done small things I've asked, like not to wave his hands around so vigorously and to move his chair back-- and some may apologize-- again, mine has.

And as to validation for one's feelings. I've observed that some people use validation as a substitute for agree. Invalidation, to me, is when someone fails to understand where you're coming from and/or essentially says you are insane for seeing things this way or feeling the way you do. But I think this gets tricky too because if you're talking about how the other person is, making claims about what the other person thinks or feels or how they do things, many people with a healthy sense of who they are will tell you that you're wrong. So I think validation is context specific.

To me validation doesn't require that someone agree with me. They can see it differently but acknowledge the reasonableness of where I stand. And because where you sit depends upon where you stand, people with different life experiences are going to disagree a lot. The most useful thing I learned in higher education that I sometimes forget is from a really wise professor who was very skilled at guiding class discussion so various viewpoints were represented. She often said, "reasonable people can disagree about reasonable things."

[weaverbeaver]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

It strikes me that in real life, it is very difficult to change anyone else and is, in my experience, extremely frustrating to try to do so, especially an intimate partner. My thing has been to work more vigorously on accepting people for who they are and not requiring them to say or do things that benefit me. I think this is different than asking a partner to meet your needs in a different way but to make such a request may come with the possibility that s/he won't give you what you want, and that is okay.


Have you explored in therapy why it is so important to you that Madame T change for you, or why you needed an apology for who she is and how she does the T thing with you? Because I don't understand how it would help anyone in therapy for the therapist to change unless somehow this helps the client to change.


I don't think that the purpose of therapy is to change the therapist or to get an apology from them about the way they do things. This seems like going to the grocery store and trying to bargain the total price with the cashier (at least in the U.S., I have been in countries where the culture is to bargain over everything).


Some therapists may change how they do things-- mine has done small things I've asked, like not to wave his hands around so vigorously and to move his chair back-- and some may apologize-- again, mine has.


And as to validation for one's feelings. I've observed that some people use validation as a substitute for agree. Invalidation, to me, is when someone fails to understand where you're coming from and/or essentially says you are insane for seeing things this way or feeling the way you do. But I think this gets tricky too because if you're talking about how the other person is, making claims about what the other person thinks or feels or how they do things, many people with a healthy sense of who they are will tell you that you're wrong. So I think validation is context specific.


To me validation doesn't require that someone agree with me. They can see it differently but acknowledge the reasonableness of where I stand. And because where you sit depends upon where you stand, people with different life experiences are going to disagree a lot. The most useful thing I learned in higher education that I sometimes forget is from a really wise professor who was very skilled at guiding class discussion so various viewpoints were represented. She often said, "reasonable people can disagree about reasonable things."

This is a great post Anne, thank you!

I am in the process of accepting others differences and instead of trying to change them, I try to change my way of reacting to them. My t will never change, not at her age, nor should she have to but surely people should be open to at least hearing another’s point of view before deciding their stance.

[susannahsays]

I do not manage the therapist. She doesn't seem to manage me, either, since she says things she knows I find provocative. I guess this is fine. I don't really want to deal with some coward, although sometimes in session I become angry.

[LonesomeTonight]

I suppose I've done a bit of this with current T. He tends to, as he calls it, "give lots of feedback" (as opposed to mostly sitting and listening). Sometimes that takes the form of him suggesting what another person may have been thinking or feeling in response to me. Which can sometimes be difficult to hear. There have been a couple sessions where I've told him at the start that what I really needed that session was support from him, less feedback, and he's generally respected and obliged that. I also told him in an e-mail a couple months ago that maybe I need him to be a bit more gentle with the feedback for a bit (this was related to the stone thing and also to my dealing with ex-MC termination), and he said he would do his best to do that (and I think he has). He's basically come out and said before that this is his style of doing therapy, so if I wanted a completely different approach, I should probably see someone else. So I think it would be futile for me to try to completely mold him into a different type of T. But he's willing to make adjustments here and there to meet my needs whether in the moment or in a more general term, as I think all good T's should be willing to do.

As for walking on eggshells...I have found myself avoiding a few topics, like anything to do with transference/attachment to him (ever since the initial stone discussion), because I was concerned it would make him uncomfortable. We briefly addressed that avoidance last session (I brought it up). We both agreed that avoiding something could put sort of a block in between us and in the therapy in general, so it's better to talk about it than avoid it. So I'm going to try not to avoid things with him.